PENTECOSTALISM VS INTELLECTUAL CHRISTIANITY

Al Touthentop · Nov 30, 2019

Skidder said:
So what do you believe then? And what are you fighting against? Do you believe what John MacArthur teaches about the church in Corinth that they were speaking a demonic/Pagan tongues? Please tell me so I don't think you "hate" this gift? What are you trying to prove?

I don't believe I'm fighting anything other than misunderstanding of scripture.

I am not sure that MacArthur teaches that the church in Corinth were speaking demonic tongues. However, if he did, I'd laugh. I don't believe there is such a thing for one and for another the text itself does not deride what they were doing there other than to say that without interpretation, the practice of speaking other languages without ears to understand the utterances or interpreters is purely self aggrandizement. Nobody benefits from it, Paul writes.

Paul makes it clear that the gift of speaking other languages is given by the Holy Spirit. However, if there's nobody present to understand your words you are just "speaking to the air."

If you do it alone, in prayer, exercising a gift that comes from God, even then you gain no benefit. That's what Paul wrote about it. One does not have to disparage the gift to understand that:

1. Modern people claiming they have this gift are uttering nothing approaching actual language and get very upset when questioned about it.
2. The gift was for unbelievers and its purpose was to bring them to Christ.

Dave L · Nov 30, 2019

Skidder said:
The problem with you intellectuals is you want nothing to do with supernatural power of His Holy Spirit. You want control, and the Holy Spirit sometimes colors outside of your lines...

"The wisdom and power of God is foolishness to men. These are the ones who rise above spiritual gifts in the name of “intellect”. The supernatural is not necessary for their knowledge of scripture has already superseded any need of revelation and dependency on His Spirit . And they are quick to use the chaos of the Pentecostals to denounce these scriptures. Like little spiritual Einsteins they have calculated the Grace of God to a manageable formula. They treat prophecy with contempt, and thus quench the Spirit’s fire."

And that is exactly what you intellectuals do. Not only that, but you deny His power by discouraging the very DESIRE of having these wonderful gifts. You deny the power of God because it is beyond your control. "Like little spiritual Einsteins they have calculated the Grace of God to a manageable formula." This is not how the Holy Spirit works. This is according to HIS WILL! You would love to stop all this "nonsense" but you can't! People are being saved all over the world in miraculous ways! And many are speaking in tongues despite teachers like John MacArthur who teach against it. You cannot stop the supernatural power of His Spirit that is saving people across the globe!!

But at the same time I have made it clear I am not giving the Pentecostals a free pass. And that is why I said this...

"Pentecostalism has poisoned the watering hole in several ways: CHAOS is the opposite of ORDER! Paul lays out strict guidelines on how these gifts are to be administered in the church, and he goes on to say that failure to do so will have costly effects…

“Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?”-
1 Corinthians 14:23

And this is not what what many in the Pentecostal church have enforced, on the contrary, the very opposite. They believe they have something the other churches don’t so they pursue reckless abandonment in the name of “holiness”. Because of their lack of discernment and their gratifications of the flesh much of the simplicity that is in Christ will remain hidden from them. Their glorification of themselves over Christ is the very opposite of what these gifts of the Holy Spirit were intended to do, and that is to bring glory to Christ that we may walk by faith in Him."

You probably find it confusing that I would promote the speaking of tongues, but at the same time expose the Pentecostals.

You must understand that "Pentecostalism" is a denomination. A denomination manufactured by the hands of men. This title does not change what is written in 12, 13, and 14 of 1 Corinthians. These scriptures are CLEAR, and say what they say.

I'm a high functioning moron if anything. But know truth when I hear it. I also know today's "miracles" are frauds compared to biblical miracles.

Dave L · Nov 30, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Are you the keeper of truth? (nope)

This is a HUGE problem with the forum and Christianity in general. "Us" versus "them".

The tendency is to think we have the "truth" (as you said) and everyone else is a child of the devil.

BIG problem.

It is us vs them all things considered.

Dave L · Nov 30, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Really?
Ananias was not an Apostle (capital "A") Laid hands on Saul. (for healing and the baptism with the HS)
And who laid hands on the 5000 and the 2000?
You will add exceptions until you make your point. Which is already invalid.

The Baptism was part of being an Apostle.

NBB · Nov 30, 2019

Skidder said:
The problem with you intellectuals is you want nothing to do with supernatural power of His Holy Spirit. You want control, and the Holy Spirit sometimes colors outside of your lines...

"The wisdom and power of God is foolishness to men. These are the ones who rise above spiritual gifts in the name of “intellect”. The supernatural is not necessary for their knowledge of scripture has already superseded any need of revelation and dependency on His Spirit . And they are quick to use the chaos of the Pentecostals to denounce these scriptures. Like little spiritual Einsteins they have calculated the Grace of God to a manageable formula. They treat prophecy with contempt, and thus quench the Spirit’s fire."

And that is exactly what you intellectuals do. Not only that, but you deny His power by discouraging the very DESIRE of having these wonderful gifts. You deny the power of God because it is beyond your control. "Like little spiritual Einsteins they have calculated the Grace of God to a manageable formula." This is not how the Holy Spirit works. This is according to HIS WILL! You would love to stop all this "nonsense" but you can't! People are being saved all over the world in miraculous ways! And many are speaking in tongues despite teachers like John MacArthur who teach against it. You cannot stop the supernatural power of His Spirit that is saving people across the globe!!

But at the same time I have made it clear I am not giving the Pentecostals a free pass. And that is why I said this...

"Pentecostalism has poisoned the watering hole in several ways: CHAOS is the opposite of ORDER! Paul lays out strict guidelines on how these gifts are to be administered in the church, and he goes on to say that failure to do so will have costly effects…

“Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?”-
1 Corinthians 14:23

And this is not what what many in the Pentecostal church have enforced, on the contrary, the very opposite. They believe they have something the other churches don’t so they pursue reckless abandonment in the name of “holiness”. Because of their lack of discernment and their gratifications of the flesh much of the simplicity that is in Christ will remain hidden from them. Their glorification of themselves over Christ is the very opposite of what these gifts of the Holy Spirit were intended to do, and that is to bring glory to Christ that we may walk by faith in Him."

You probably find it confusing that I would promote the speaking of tongues, but at the same time expose the Pentecostals.

You must understand that "Pentecostalism" is a denomination. A denomination manufactured by the hands of men. This title does not change what is written in 12, 13, and 14 of 1 Corinthians. These scriptures are CLEAR, and say what they say.

If being pentecostal is believing in gifts, being filled with the Holy spirit etc, then i agree with all that, i think there is lots of pentecostal churches that doesn't do 'out of control' things, i think is a bit unfair to throw them in the same bag as the ones who do bad, there is lot of spirit filled sincere believers in pentecostal churches.

What would you call a believer in gifts, the filling of the Holy spirit, tongues etc?.

Dave L · Nov 30, 2019

Skidder said:
Did you not read my original thread? I said nothing about the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit"? You just assumed that. I don't believe the gift of tongues is for everyone. Although, I do believe He answers prayer when people desire spiritual gifts. Otherwise Paul wouldn't say this...

1 Corinthians 12:31
But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 14:1
Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

1 Corinthians 14:39
Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.

1 Cor 12
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts.

By this statement we clearly see that not everyone will receive the gift of tongues. If they did, everyone would have the gift of healing as well.

And more evidence...

1 Corinthians 14:5
I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

If everyone spoke in tongues, why would he say "I wish you all spoke with tongues". And if the Pentecostals say "this verse is talking about the tongues during the services", then that would contradict the whole rebuke of a "fit and orderly way".

I'm not a "Pentecostal" in any way! I'm a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ who speaks in tongues; one who believes 12, 13, and 14 of 1 Cor the way they are written! My rebukes were for both sides for not following these scriptures THE WAY THEY ARE WRITTEN. Which leads me to another testimony...

Another testimony, take it or leave it...

I came to Christ when I was 23, a veteran of the shadows who knows this statement very well.. "oh wretched man that I am!"

A person from work kept witnessing to me about Jesus along with several other people. So when I started going to church I went to his church which was an "evangelical free" church. A church based on the programs from "Dallas Theological Seminary". They were very much against the gift of tongues, but I didn't care at that time because I didn't know much, and I was a new convert who never spoke in tongues. They all embraced me with loving arms. I was baptized there and gave my testimony in front of the church. Well, two weeks later something non-intellectual happened. One morning in the shower while worshiping the Lord, I was filled with His Spirit, fell to my knees, and started praising God in a different language. Shocked to say the least! But I will never forget the awesome power of that morning! At that moment I was not praying for the gift of tongues (but I had prayed in the past for any of His gifts), but God bestowed upon me this WONDERFUL GIFT! Can I speak that gift out loud in front of people? YES, but that would be foolishness because the scriptures are clear that people would think I was "out of my mind".

Well, to make a long story short, I tried to tell people in my church what happened in that shower, and their INTELLECT EXPLODED! They couldn't handle it! So they ran to their precious John MacArthur for help, and he gave them what their itching ears wanted to hear! I ended up leaving the church through an intellectual persecution, and also when I saw one of his books against tongues in the church library. And this is what forced me into a "Pentecostal church". At least they didn't proclaim the gift God gave me was "demonic", which was FAR WORSE! I attended this Assembly of God for a couple years but I ended up leaving because they left the guidelines of the scriptures, and no longer practiced this gift in a fit and orderly fashion. They started speaking in tongues without an interpreter in front of the church. And that is why I left, they were not following the scriptures THE WAY THEY ARE WRITTEN!

1 Corinthians 14:40
But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

Only the apostles gave the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, tongues being the trademark of having received it. The two outpourings contained it too.

Dave L · Nov 30, 2019

rockytopva said:
We believe the truth is the individual inhibits the Holy Spirit from shining through. So.... The sermons are geared for the individual sitting in the pew and what he can do to live a more victorious life to give God glory. Putting other doctrines down to boost the personal ego is not considered something good. When the Spirit of truth is received inside then the individual does good because the heart has no desire to do otherwise. As James says...

13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. - James 3:13-15

The earthly, sensual, and devilish therefore comes from the bitter envying and strife in the heart, and not the result of some man made doctrine.

But you think people babbling is scripture too. Where do we draw the line?

Skidder · Nov 30, 2019

NBB said:
If being pentecostal is believing in gifts, being filled with the Holy spirit etc, then i agree with all that, i think there is lots of pentecostal churches that doesn't do 'out of control' things, i think is a bit unfair to throw them in the same bag as the ones who do bad, there is lot of spirit filled sincere believers in pentecostal churches.

What would you call a believer in gifts, the filling of the Holy spirit, tongues etc?.

I never lumped them all together.

I am speaking to those who don't practice the gift in a FIT AND ORDERLY WAY. And I made this very from the very beginning. And that is why I said MANY and not ALL.

(((And this is not what what many in the Pentecostal church have enforced, on the contrary, the very opposite. They believe they have something the other churches don’t so they pursue reckless abandonment in the name of “holiness”. Because of their lack of discernment and their gratifications of the flesh much of the simplicity that is in Christ will remain hidden from them. Their glorification of themselves over Christ is the very opposite of what these gifts of the Holy Spirit were intended to do, and that is to bring glory to Christ that we may walk by faith in Him.)))

Al Touthentop · Nov 30, 2019

Skidder said:
The problem with you intellectuals is you want nothing to do with supernatural power of His Holy Spirit. You want control, and the Holy Spirit sometimes colors outside of your lines...

"The wisdom and power of God is foolishness to men. These are the ones who rise above spiritual gifts in the name of “intellect”. The supernatural is not necessary for their knowledge of scripture has already superseded any need of revelation and dependency on His Spirit . And they are quick to use the chaos of the Pentecostals to denounce these scriptures. Like little spiritual Einsteins they have calculated the Grace of God to a manageable formula. They treat prophecy with contempt, and thus quench the Spirit’s fire."

This is a misapplication of that scripture. We are not deriding spiritual gifts. Not only do I believe they were given, I believe that they served the purpose intended - to verify that God's word was true and that those who spoke the word were from God.

And that is exactly what you intellectuals do. Not only that, but you deny His power by discouraging the very DESIRE of having these wonderful gifts.

This is a projection. I greatly desire to have any spiritual gift no matter how small. The wonder of the gifts as given to the apostles and their disciples is awe-inspiring. What I have argued against is the belittling of those gifts, especially the gift of tongues, by uttering complete gibberish which can be understood by no-one and then claiming that this is from God. The gift of tongues was the gift of speaking foreign languages. Paul makes that clear.

Spewing nonsense syllables and then claiming it is a gift of the Holy Spirit, mocks the Holy Spirit.

You deny the power of God because it is beyond your control.

It is exactly because it is out of my control that I embrace it and am in awe of it.

This is according to HIS WILL!

It could not possibly be the will of the Holy Spirit to author confusion in the church. He inspired Paul to write against it while at the same time glorifying the gifts.

And many are speaking in tongues despite teachers like John MacArthur who teach against it.

The issue is the reliability of this claim. When you can show me a person who is speaking an understandable language, I'll accept that this gift is still being given to Christians today.

Skidder · Nov 30, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
This is a projection. I greatly desire to have any spiritual gift no matter how small. The wonder of the gifts as given to the apostles and their disciples is awe-inspiring. What I have argued against is the belittling of those gifts, especially the gift of tongues, by uttering complete gibberish which can be understood by no-one and then claiming that this is from God. The gift of tongues was the gift of speaking foreign languages. Paul makes that clear.

Than what exactly is your protest?

Al Touthentop · Nov 30, 2019

Skidder said:
Than what exactly is your protest?

I really don't feel like repeating myself. Even in the post to which you've responded I made myself reasonably clear. Personally, I don't think you are reading my posts. Seems kinda obvious that you're not.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 30, 2019

Dave L said:
Only the 12 were present in the outpouring. The 120 were at a different time and place.

That is a popular theory, and it assumes that somewhere between the 120 all meeting together for prayer, there was a change of location for the 12 before the day of Pentecost. In reality we can't be really sure either way, because as I posted the whole passage involving Acts 1 and the start of Acts 2, the literal comprehension of the passage can be gained to see that it appears that the 120 were together right through to the day of Pentecost.

I think the alternative reading comes because of the division between chapters, which did not exist in the original text, and so the division between the end of Acts 1 and the start of Acts 2 can give the impression that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost occurred with the reduced group at a different location.

I am fully aware that those of a Cessationist view would favour the change of location and reduced number of participants because it would suit their theology.

But if the division of chapter and verse were taken away and the passage read as one straight series of events with one group in one place, then that, I think according to my academic training in English language and literature, then employing comprehension 101, would lead me to believe that it would be more likely, and to maintain that the number of the group magically reducing from 120 to 12 and being transported to another location seems to be reading something into the text which isn't there.

But what do I know? I just have a M.A. in English, and taught comprehension to 9 and 10 year olds in elementary school for 10 years!

Saint Steven · Nov 30, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
The baptism of the Holy Spirit came directly from Jesus. Laying on of hands is not the same. There are only two places where one reads of this, on the Day of Pentecost and at Cornelius house.

Laying on of hands would enable disciples to use gifts as we read about. But only Jesus could baptize with the Holy Spirit.

I would tell you to take that up with Dave, but you are already confused enough.

Saint Steven · Nov 30, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
The laying on of hands there wasn't to pass along spiritual gifts, it was to heal his sight.

Wrong again.

Saint Steven · Nov 30, 2019

Dave L said:
It is us vs them all things considered.

Only if you consider everyone else to be a child of the devil.

Saint Steven · Nov 30, 2019

Dave L said:
The Baptism was part of being an Apostle.

Explain Samaria. Why the surprise?

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 30, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Paul sought to bring order to the church in Corinth. Today's ungifted readers tend to turn that into legalistic rules. And use their rules to instruct the gifted as to how the gifts should be used. Paul was trying to create an emphasis on edification, not shut down tongues except for the two or three allowed with interpretation.

In most Pentecostal and Charismatic meetings I have attended where tongues are spoken, there has been a marked difference between people praying and worshiping with tongues, and the one or two speaking a "message" in tongues to the whole group. In my 50 years of either being a member or associated with a Pentecostal group, I have never been in any meeting where there has been disorder and chaos. Every meeting has been conducted decently and in order and carefully moderated by the pastor and elders. Even when, in the last Pentecostal Sunday morning service I attended, where the pastor went around whispering in peoples' ears, "Jesus is here", and people were jerking and shaking as a result, it was done quietly, worshipfully, and with total respect for the presence of God and the Holy Spirit.

If people don't like verbal tongues being spoken during corporate worship times, then they don't have to attend. Instead of darkening counsel without knowledge in their criticism of the services, they should go down the road to a Sunday morning service that more suits their personal style. Why should someone's personal preference be foisted on to others who are quite happy with the style of worship in their Pentecostal Sunday services and prayer meetings?

I would rather have people being verbally expressive in tongues and English in worship than sitting mute and passive like wooden statues. The Lord inhabits the praises of His people, and when people are expressive in their praise, the Lord manifests His wonderful presence among them. That type of worship absolutely spoils me for anything else, and a congregation sitting mute and passive in a service, thinking they are actually worshiping God, gives the impression that they are attending a funeral service than a Sunday service where people are meant to rejoice in God's presence and to praise Him for his great works of grace and power.

Reminds me of the gang of Hell's Angels who sat outside a large city church and watched the people entering. They noticed that the people looked as if they were going to the dentist. After the service was over, the people came out again and they looked as if they had just been to the dentist!

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 30, 2019

Concord1968 said:
Source, please.

My source is the New Testament itself and the total absence of any reference to clearly that that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are meant to be temporary. There is plenty of proof in church history that the gifts declined and ceased because of the apostasy of the church, rather than any decree of God. If you want a source for that, your fingers are as good as mine for looking it up on Google.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 30, 2019

Hillsage said:
The 'majority' of commentators aren't 'Pentecostal' either Oscarr, so lacking that experience simply colors their opinions IMO. We see that here, as in all anti tongue threads.

I disagree, this subject of "house" was before "the day of Pentecost was come" when those living in the house ('elder' leadership) were determining leadership replacement for Judas. Congregational rule is not biblical IMO. I do agree with brother AL Touthentop on that point, but not with much of his ultimate conclusion.

No, it is fulfilling where everyone in Jerusalem was going to 'go' to celebrate the feast. And that was not 'a room'. It was a "house" and that "House" was the "House of the Lord"...or temple.

No, the church gathered where they always did until it became a place of Jewish persecution.

Scripture is plain concerning the fact that the disciples all received 'prayer tongues' FIRST in the house of the Lord/temple. That is made plain with the understanding of the word

ACT 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised/phone abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

5456 phone: a tone (articulate, bestial or artificial); by impl. an address (for any purpose), saying or language

That prayer tongues is an "utterance" defined as a 'enunciated plainly' language, is obvious to those of who walk in that revelational testimony. That this tongue is not understood by any but God in scripture, is understood by those who have eyes/ears to see and hear the truth.
But because it is a "noise" "bestial or artificial" sounding language is why the "ungifted/unlearned" non Charismatics declare it to be the ramblings of someone "drunk" or "mad" by those who do not understand such spiritual things.

I too am interested in this statement, since I've never heard it before.

Most Pentecostals I know believe that 120 received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. Also, they are quite happy with the way their Sunday services are conducted, enjoy the worship with praising and singling to the Lord in tongues and English. And, frankly, they don't give two figs about anti-Pentecostals and are quite happy for them to stay away and go to their own churches that worship more suited to their personal style. So, any criticism of Pentecostals goes in one ear and out the other, having the attitude, "they have their opinion and we have ours", and all the criticism goes off like water off a duck's back, leaving them quite free and happy to worship the Lord in any way they jolly well please!

rose wabos · Nov 30, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
What languages have you spoken as directed by the Holy Spirit?

There's seems to be a lot of confusion over what speaking in tongues means, and how it is used. I will link a video which explains the different types of speaking in tongues. I mostly just speak in tongues to God, and keep it to myself, as to not create chaos in a church setting. However, I do believe multiple people speaking in tongues over others can help facilitate breakthrough.
Here's the video:

PENTECOSTALISM VS INTELLECTUAL CHRISTIANITY

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