PENTECOSTALISM VS INTELLECTUAL CHRISTIANITY

[rockytopva]

Put up some documented miracles and then make your claims.

Our claims are in the form of testimonies. I have remembered the old timers testifying such claims of healing of body...

 

[Dave L]

Your whole argument is built on the foundation of your own personal bad experience. Not everyone has had a bad experience with it.

I've sampled them all.

 

[Dave L]

Our claims are in the form of testimonies. I have remembered the old timers testifying such claims of healing of body...

Quote it briefly. I don't get tied up following rabbit rails.

The prayer of faith heals. But the claims to having the gifts are based on a lack of understanding.

 

[rockytopva]

I don't think we can put the Spirit in a box and limit him. The Apostle gave no indication that what they were doing was NOT of God. It seems he was redirecting their energies into something more edifying.

People do get carried away. Some folk get carried away in their own carnality, or in interpretation of some church doctrine.

 

[Dave L]

People do get carried away. Some folk get carried away in their own carnality, or in interpretation of some church doctrine.

They confuse adrenaline with the Holy Spirit.

 

[rockytopva]

Quote it briefly. I don't get tied up on rabbit rails.

Testimonies are important....

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. - Revelation 12:11

I can only imagine how often the Apostle Paul gave his testimony.

 

[Saint Steven]

People do get carried away. Some folk get carried away in their own carnality, or in interpretation of some church doctrine.

And on that basis many want to shut the whole service down for everyone. Thus tossing out the child with the bath water.

 

[rockytopva]

They confuse adrenaline with the Holy Spirit.

Others confuse Holy Spirit with personal ego. The anointing of a God is not arrogance!

 

[Dave L]

Testimonies are important....

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. - Revelation 12:11

I can only imagine how often the Apostle Paul gave his testimony.

Testimonies based on false doctrine are deceiving.

 

[Dave L]

Others confuse Holy Spirit with personal ego. The anointing of a God is not arrogance!

Where is the anointing in this commotion?

 

[rockytopva]

Where is the anointing in this commotion?

I thank God that I received the actual Holy Spirit one autumn evening in the long ago in a Pentecostal Holiness church among Virginia folk with Walton type personalities. As in the George Clark Rankin testimony (Pentecostal Holiness has its roots here)....

"As we returned home the sun shone brighter, the birds sang sweeter and the autumn-time looked richer than ever before. My heart was light and my spirit buoyant. I had anchored my soul in the haven of rest, and there was not a ripple upon the current of my joy. That night there was no service and after supper I walked out under the great old pine trees and held communion with God. I thought of mother, and home, and Heaven.

"I at once gave my name to the preacher for membership in the Church, and the following Sunday morning, along with many others, he received me into full membership in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South. It was one of the most delightful days in my recollection. It was the third Sunday in September, 1866, and those Church vows became a living principle in my heart and life. During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life." - The Life of George Clark Rankin

 

[Dave L]

I thank God that I received the actual Holy Spirit one autumn evening in the long ago in a Pentecostal Holiness church among Virginia folk with Walton type personalities. As in the George Clark Rankin testimony (Pentecostal Holiness has its roots here)....

"As we returned home the sun shone brighter, the birds sang sweeter and the autumn-time looked richer than ever before. My heart was light and my spirit buoyant. I had anchored my soul in the haven of rest, and there was not a ripple upon the current of my joy. That night there was no service and after supper I walked out under the great old pine trees and held communion with God. I thought of mother, and home, and Heaven.

"I at once gave my name to the preacher for membership in the Church, and the following Sunday morning, along with many others, he received me into full membership in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South. It was one of the most delightful days in my recollection. It was the third Sunday in September, 1866, and those Church vows became a living principle in my heart and life. During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life." - The Life of George Clark Rankin

All believers have the Holy Spirit. Faith is a fruit, that is, they cannot truly believe without him. The fullness of the Spirit comes through walking in love. I think most of the Pentecostals I've rubbed shoulders with are adrenaline junkies that don't know the first thing about true spirituality.

 

[rockytopva]

Testimonies based on false doctrine are deceiving.

So.... What kind of testimony do you have for us?

 

[rockytopva]

All believers have the Holy Spirit. Faith is a fruit, that is, they cannot truly believe without him. The fullness of the Spirit comes through walking in love. I think most of the Pentecostals I've rubbed shoulders with are adrenaline junkies that don't know the first thing about true spirituality.

"Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth." - 1 Corinthians 8:2

I would be cautious that we are not calling a puffed up ego the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave L]

"Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth." - 1 Corinthians 8:2

I would be cautious that we are not calling a puffed up ego the Holy Spirit.

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV 1900)

 

[Hillsage]

And on that basis many want to shut the whole service down for everyone. Thus tossing out the child with the bath water.

When the "ungifted/unlearned" show up with the "unbelievers" in a "whole church of ALL tongue speakers" we 'simply have to understand' that they 'simply don't understand' the spiritual things taking place. We who are numbered with the "drunk" on Pentecost and the "mad" judgments at Corinth must simply understand we are not enemies of the body of Christ. But we are enemies of the spirits that drive such false judgments against us.

1CO 14:23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

 

[Hillsage]

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV 1900)

That's actually very good advice Dave.

 

[Skidder]

Paul is explaining not that there is a distinction to be made in the "tongue" or "gift" but in its application or use.

Try this and see if it makes sense:

"does not speak to men but to God, for (BECAUSE ) no one understands him"

Paul was explaining why speaking in tongues was useless unless there was someone there to understand what was being said. It had NO BENEFIT. You're just "speaking to God." And if the gift is for the unbeliever, do you think Paul therefore concluded that speaking in tongues to God was beneficial because God needed to be convinced of something? Odd, when put in context with what else he said don't you think? That absurdity, that one would use a gift of God to speak only to God, is what Paul is trying to convey here.



Yes, because the practice is for unbelievers. So, for the unbeliever to get a benefit, he has to understand what is being said. Thus the need for an interpreter at the very least. Not only were they speaking in languages that nobody could understand, they were talking over others who were speaking at the same time. It was chaos. It needed to be ordered and in a way that people could understand. The way that they were worshiping provided no "edification" or benefit to the church.



What do you think I am not understanding?



So...Paul says, it is useless if no one understands he who speaks in tongues. At the same time, he is careful to make them understand that the gift is sacred and that its purpose is to reveal mystery. If it is only being spoken to the person who provided the revelation, it is being wasted.



So, even when doing this alone, there is no benefit since I myself have gained no understanding.



So, I will pray with the spirit but in my own language so that I get understanding. I will sing with the spirit in my own language and I will also sing with the understanding (so that others in the church are edified). Understanding I would not have had were I to pray or sing in another language that none of us understands.



Therefore if you're all together speaking in tongues and in chaos, and somebody comes in who doesn't speak the languages you're speaking, and sees you doing this in chaos, will they not say you are out of your mind?



I think I understand. What am I missing do you think?



Yet he also says that no benefit is obtained when you do it alone by yourself. The purpose of speaking in tongues was for the unbeliever not the believer.




I would say this is a pretty good argument against the practice of speaking in tongues unless it has a benefit to the listener, even if that listener is yourself. You're not hearing anything that brings new understanding.



A person who edifies himself is not a benefit to the congregation. That's the point of this treatise. Don't do things which are only intended to make you feel special. Your purpose in the church is to edify the church, not yourself.


Right. Don't be afraid to use this gift if it edifies the church and brings believers to repentance, the purpose of the gift. It's an amazing gift when it is used in the proper way.



Can you quote a single place where I've indicated I "hate" the gift of tongues?


The only thing I hate is teaching that is contradictory to scripture.

That was your own opinion through all those replies. Your hatred for the gift of tongues blinds you to the obvious.

 

[Concord1968]

Cessationism is a total fabrication and an invention by some mad monk who first promulgated it around the 6th Century A.D.

Source, please.

 

[Skidder]

Testimonies based on false doctrine are deceiving.

Like I told the other intellectual (carnal understanding) Just read the scriptures the way they are written. They say what they say, and you have to twist them to get them to line up with your precious "John MacArthur". He is not God. Most of those who hate tongues cling to his doctrines.