Concerns about church

Dorothy Mae said:

You obviously don’t know much about cannabis.

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Did you also imply that people don't take pills to get high? Ritalin, Valium, Xanax, Ambien, Morphine, NyQuil, Sudafed, barbituates, all get you high as a kite and can kill you upon overdose.

Cannabis, can you site one overdose ever from any reputable source? Doubt it. If you are thinking about the vaporizer injuries, in every single case it was an unlicensed product that contained ingredients that should not be used in a vaporizer. Research further than the headlines to specific facts. THC has never physically harmed anyone.

From WebMD
Medical marijuana is used to treat a number of different conditions, including:

• Alzheimer's disease
• Appetite loss
• Cancer
• Crohn's disease
• Eating disorders such as anorexia
• Epilepsy
• Glaucoma
• Mental health conditions like schizophrenia and posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD)
• Multiple sclerosis
• Muscle spasms
• Nausea
• Pain
• Wasting syndrome (cachexia)

Maybe you should examine your view of cannabis and it's medicinal properties?

Dorothy Mae said:

Guess you like weed. Touched a nerve.

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Yes actually it does burn my nerves when people spread misinformation about this when booze has destroyed millions of lives and families and is far from harmless

If a person has a medical condition, then that is different (because they need it to help aid in their pain), but if they do not have a medical condition, believers are commanded to be sober many times in Scripture. Paul told Timothy to use a little wine in his water for the infirmities of his stomach. But Paul did not say just go ahead and drink yourself into oblivion or drink for fun; Neither did Paul say that we can smoke so as to get closer to God. Again, we are to be sober minded. Try doing a search at BlueLetterBible.org on the keyword "sober" in the New Testament. Drunkenness is said to be a major grievous sin in the Bible that leads to spiritual death. So do not take being drunk or not sober as not being that big of a deal. It's a very serious sin that can destroy even a believer's soul.

Josheb said:

It would do the same for me. I'm am a recovered alcohol and drug user and now a professional counselor who works with those having chemical addictions, compulsions, and dependencies. I'd be hard-pressed not to say something either in class or privately simply because I'm bold and informed but I try to remember that in the congregational setting I'm a sheep, not a shepherd. I often counsel the shepherds but that's not my role in the setting you've described. Boundaries.

Were I looking for a home congregation, though, I would definitely be looking for a body of believers in which some healthy boundaries and accountability exists. Let me encourage you to pick up a couple of books:

1) "Spiritual Disciplines for the Godly Life," by Donald Whitney,
2) "The Emotionally Healthy Church," and "Emotionally Healthy Spirituality," by Peter Scazzaro
3) "Disciplines of a Godly Man," by R. Kent Hughes


There's some redundancy between the Whitney and Hughes books but they are worth reading on their own. Hughes' wife wrote a companion volume for the wives. Remember: Normal is not always healthy.

I went through a new church search a few years ago when my kids entered their teens. I was looking for three priorities: 1) a youth group that was more than a social club and would help me train my children to grow from childhood to adulthood in Christ, 2) a congregation with both internal and external accountability, 3) a tolerance for diversity within the mainstream of orthodox Christian thought and practice. I attended many congregations and interviewed pastors or elders from at least ten of them. Most easily fit the bill but a few were obviously lacking. In the end my wife and I chose a congregation in the Evangelical Presbyterian Congregation (EPC) denomination that was inviting and showed a great deal of hospitality in addition to my above concerns.

Blessings upon your endeavor.

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Just want to add that there are various "flavors" of ESP

I attended one I loved that had strong biblical /theologic teachings and loving members.. There was one located closer to me, so I listened to some of their Pastors teaching and it was very liberal "feelings" based that held the same liberal beliefs as the UPC as far as homosexuality, gay marriage, abortion etc. so do a check on the positions of the church. I believe that each congregation decides on women pastors ,elders and doctrinal positions

Emsmom1 said:

I am a new believer. A few weeks ago, I searched for "new Christian class" in my area and found one that was starting the next day. So far, so good. I went and I loved it. I had been dealing with OCD and the sermon was on anxiety and how to find peace in God (I know it wasn't written for me, but it was such a perfect message to hear that day). Later I went to speak to the pastor to find out more about the church, the denomination, their theological stance, etc. It's a nondenominational church, not necessarily Reform or Arminian ("we don't take from any one tradition"). He also described it as an "and" church-I'm not entirely sure what that means.
I've been attending for three weeks. I want to become a member but I have some concerns. First, there is a woman pastor on staff. She doesn't preach but she does hold the title pastor. I know Christians have differing opinions on women in leadership and that is okay. I'm just not sure how I feel about it. Second, they offer both infant baptisms and infant dedications, depending on parental preference. I am apolitical on infant baptism, but for some reason it makes me feel like they are indecisive or maybe just worried about pleasing everyone. Third, in my class yesterday for new Christians we were talking about how we find time to be alone with God and what that looks like. People were saying things like: I make a cup of tea and find a quiet spot, etc. Then a man said he prefers to light a joint before reading the bible. There was silence; I don't think anyone knew what to say. I actually don't think smoking pot is a sin any more than drinking alcohol is (it's legal in my state), but, to me, it's analogous to saying I like to crack open a six-pack during devotions.
So, I'm not sure what to do. I do love this church. And I spoke with a friend who is ordained who pointed out that no church is perfect, which is certainly true. Any thoughts?

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Interesting. I know that God can use churches for a season. When I was going through a divorce, one place I went was great, right up until they found out that I was divorced. If it helps you and there is nowhere better, stay with it. You do not have to accept all the teachings. I teach my students (Bible school) to study God's word for themselves. If they do not agree with something I say, they are encouraged to say so. We need the "Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation" to guide us. We need God's revelation, not man's interpretations.
If someone can smoke pot and not be in any way affected, it is not sin. Which rather defeats the purpose of smoking pot. Pot turns people's brains to mush.
The word "Pastor" is rarely used in the NT. Modern usage, to refer to anyone with a recognised role in church life, cannot be justified from the Bible. Just having "Pastor" on your business card does not make you one.
The articles on this site will help you: The Living Word - Christian Life Frankston

They cover a range of topics that are vital but rarely get a mention in churches. 30-40 minutes a week of preaching is not enough.

Congratulations on being born again. You are asking great questions. Part of being a new Christian is building spiritual discernment. You may be "young" in your knowledge of the Lord, but you still have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you. So, what I mean to say is PRAY fervently for our Father in Heaven to guide you. He will be pleased that you seek His direction about this, and all, matters. And He is very willing to give His children what we ask for!

One question is whether it is the Lord prompting you on these issues or your own reservations. He can help you identify that. In the cases where your own reservations are giving you pause, He can help you cast those cares onto Him. However, if it is indeed His Spirit bringing your attention to a matter, then don't ignore it. Pray about how to deal with it. Perhaps it's not as simple as heading for the door.

For example, I would have concerns about how they handled the guy who says he smokes joints, and uses other hallucinogenic drugs. You mentioned that this is a class for new Christians. This would've been a golden opportunity for the teachers to educate the class. If he smokes pot because he's an epileptic, and it's his medication which he takes first thing in the morning before he does anything so he doesn't seize, that's one thing. But if it's recreational, which it probably is based on his usage of other substances, then that needs to be discussed in a very loving way. Love means bearing with one another in truth. It doesn't mean sweeping things that could potentially be harmful under the rug. This lack of addressing concerning behaviors does a disservice not only to the guy, but also to any other pot smokers who are too shy to share their usage with the class. That doesn't mean they need to come down as from Sinai saying "marijuana usage is a sin." However, they need to have an honest conversation about substances and how they can impede us and inhibit our ability to hear the Lord's voice and do the work He has set before us.

Also, keep reading your Bible This will help your discernment and wisdom! For me personally, after the Gospels, Isaiah greatly helped me understand more about God and His holiness.

God bless you Emsmom. I think good advice is what I tell my daughter.....make sure a boy you date has the qualities you want before you start dating him. If you don't know going in, you will become emotionally attached and it will be be harder to leave after you are emotionally attached. Same is true about joining a church, find out everything you can about their doctrine before joining. And your friend is correct, there are no perfect churches, because there are no perfect people.

All in all that sounds like a pretty solid church to try to get into. You don't have to sign away your life at first glance. I think the Bible is clear about women in the church, but if she's not teaching then that's at least more acceptable. As for lighting a joint, I'm on the fence about that, but it's not like the whole congregation was doing it. I say go for it.

Emsmom1 said:

I am a new believer. A few weeks ago, I searched for "new Christian class" in my area and found one that was starting the next day. So far, so good. I went and I loved it. I had been dealing with OCD and the sermon was on anxiety and how to find peace in God (I know it wasn't written for me, but it was such a perfect message to hear that day). Later I went to speak to the pastor to find out more about the church, the denomination, their theological stance, etc. It's a nondenominational church, not necessarily Reform or Arminian ("we don't take from any one tradition"). He also described it as an "and" church-I'm not entirely sure what that means.
I've been attending for three weeks. I want to become a member but I have some concerns. First, there is a woman pastor on staff. She doesn't preach but she does hold the title pastor. I know Christians have differing opinions on women in leadership and that is okay. I'm just not sure how I feel about it. Second, they offer both infant baptisms and infant dedications, depending on parental preference. I am apolitical on infant baptism, but for some reason it makes me feel like they are indecisive or maybe just worried about pleasing everyone. Third, in my class yesterday for new Christians we were talking about how we find time to be alone with God and what that looks like. People were saying things like: I make a cup of tea and find a quiet spot, etc. Then a man said he prefers to light a joint before reading the bible. There was silence; I don't think anyone knew what to say. I actually don't think smoking pot is a sin any more than drinking alcohol is (it's legal in my state), but, to me, it's analogous to saying I like to crack open a six-pack during devotions.
So, I'm not sure what to do. I do love this church. And I spoke with a friend who is ordained who pointed out that no church is perfect, which is certainly true. Any thoughts?

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I think the first thing is that you answered your own questions. All of those practices you pointed out obviously bother you and they should. What I would say from what you said is this Church is NOT preaching Christ and Christ alone, they are not in-line with Biblical teaching, and they are lukewarm about so many things it is pitiful. As Christ said about such, I will spew you from my mouth. I know it is easy to get comfortable with a church that tries to placate everybody - but if it is not walking with the Word it is not where you should be. It sounds as if they are not speaking out against sin and if so, they are practicing against the Word of God. This church is going to lead many people astray and I pray you will not be one of them. Now, that is not just my opinion. It is my practice because I have not only walked away from such a church, I RAN! And I thank God for the church I found instead.

rturner76 said:

Why would it be wise to leave a church that is speaking to you? Yes, no church should not condone sin, that doesn't mean the church should go around condemning sinners. The church is to accept sinners, wherever they are on their walk and show them the light of Christ in your own walk.

Your OPINION about cannabis is totally personal opinion, not fact. How can you condemn someone for smoking a joint (especially when it has been found to be medicinal and is prescribed by doctors everywhere)? Oxycontin gets people way higher and it leads many to heroin and overdose. That is acceptable? Drinking a bottle of wine with dinner is acceptable when everybody knows you can't drink a bottle of wine and remain stone-cold sober?

People like to feel high and mighty and sinless bur what about pride, gluttony, and sloth etc? Infant baptism and female Pastor's are debatable issues. Over a billion people believe in infant baptism. They have no reason to believe that? There are millions under female Pastors. Are you saying what they say and do for their churches are all invalid in God's eyes?

I would beware of condemning anyone or any church until you personally witness pure evil. Reject the sin not the sinner. Who needs church more than a sinner? All that high and mighty thinking one denomination or one person has all the answers is arrogant like the Pharisees tried to be with Christ.

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1 Corinthians chapter 5 proves the church is to reject and eject those living in unrepentant sin. To not do so IS to condone sin.

What I stated about cannabis is fact. It gets people high and those who deliberately lose their sobriety are in sin and on the way to hell. Sorcerers will have their part in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8).

There is no Biblical precedent for infant baptism. Baptism is for those who have become repentant believers in Jesus. Mark 16:16, Matthew 28:18-20, and Acts 8:37 make this crystal clear.

Every woman pastor and everyone sitting under them is disobeying the Bible. 1 Timothy 2:8-15 proves this. The fact that millions do it doesn't make it right. The truth without compromise is never popular. Same with infant baptism and a ton of other things.

The Bible never says to reject the sin and not the sinner. The sinner must be rejected when that is in one's proper jurisdiction- parents must use the rod on disobedient children, civil governments are to incarcerate or kill felons, churches are to reject unrepentant sinners, God will one day cast unrepentant sinners into hell-fire eternally. There is a humongous distinction between judicial vengeance and personal vengeance.

Sinners are primarily to be evangelized outside of church; and if they come in a church it should not be as accepted members.

The Pharisees were arrogant with Christ because Christ DID have all the answers, but they would still not heed Him. Likewise His Word is a testimony of Him which has all the answers (Jesus and His Word are obviously in perfect agreement, He is the Word made flesh)- and yet many like the Pharisees, including those who hold to infant baptism contrary to Biblical evidence, those who believe in the church tolerating sinners despite the Bible saying not to, those who justify the use of hallucinogenic drugs, and those who follow the trends of society over the Bible and accept the feminism involved in women being pastors despite the Bible forbidding this.

To reject the instruction of God's Word and thus mock His authority is the essence of pure evil, as this is essentially how Lucifer became Satan; and how Adam and Eve caused mankind to fall. I would beware of doing this.

ajcarey said:

1 Corinthians chapter 5 proves the church is to reject and eject those living in unrepentant sin. To not do so IS to condone sin.

What I stated about cannabis is fact. It gets people high and those who deliberately lose their sobriety are in sin and on the way to hell. Sorcerers will have their part in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8).

There is no Biblical precedent for infant baptism. Baptism is for those who have become repentant believers in Jesus. Mark 16:16, Matthew 28:18-20, and Acts 8:37 make this crystal clear.

Every woman pastor and everyone sitting under them is disobeying the Bible. 1 Timothy 2:8-15 proves this. The fact that millions do it doesn't make it right. The truth without compromise is never popular. Same with infant baptism and a ton of other things.

The Bible never says to reject the sin and not the sinner. The sinner must be rejected when that is in one's proper jurisdiction- parents must use the rod on disobedient children, civil governments are to incarcerate or kill felons, churches are to reject unrepentant sinners, God will one day cast unrepentant sinners into hell-fire eternally. There is a humongous distinction between judicial vengeance and personal vengeance.

Sinners are primarily to be evangelized outside of church; and if they come in a church it should not be as accepted members.

The Pharisees were arrogant with Christ because Christ DID have all the answers, but they would still not heed Him. Likewise His Word is a testimony of Him which has all the answers (Jesus and His Word are obviously in perfect agreement, He is the Word made flesh)- and yet many like the Pharisees, including those who hold to infant baptism contrary to Biblical evidence, those who believe in the church tolerating sinners despite the Bible saying not to, those who justify the use of hallucinogenic drugs, and those who follow the trends of society over the Bible and accept the feminism involved in women being pastors despite the Bible forbidding this.

To reject the instruction of God's Word and thus mock His authority is the essence of pure evil, as this is essentially how Lucifer became Satan; and how Adam and Eve caused mankind to fall. I would beware of doing this.

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I know some churches and churchgoers believe they are righteous but nobody is.

For example, if we are to eject sinners from the church, who will decide what sins get you the boot right away, and who gets a second or third chance. How many times do you allow someone to sin and repent upon return? Who is assigned to monitor people's personal lives in order to catch them in sin?
Why did Christ constantly sit at table with prostitutes, tax collectors, and other brands of sinners? Like Christ said they are in need of a physician and the church is the clinic. If a sinner comes to the church then get rejected by that church when he sins, how are they supposed to learn about a forgiving God?

You want to kick someone out of Bible study because they smoked a joint but it's fine to drink a 6 pack before church? Morphine sulfate is just fine but cannabis is a sin? Do you know how addictive morphine, valium, and Adderall are? Do you know how high they get you? Cannabis is not a hallucinogenic drug so you start off on the wrong foot when describing the effects. I already posted the many conditions that are treated with Cannabis, it's a legit drug no matter what you opinion of it.

Who made your Church's opinions about these matters fact and law? Why would your church have correct theology and other churches are false? The church has a 2000 year history and just as many theologians have written conflicting works on all of these topics. How did your church get every single one right and the 2000 year old Catholic and Orthodox Churches and half the Protestant Churches got it wrong?

"Judge not lest you be judged" "Treat others like you want to be treated" "When you do this for the least of them, you do it for me" "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" All of these things point to compassion and leaving judgment to God. It is the sin of pride to believe you are holier than other people because ALL of us are sinners unless you belong to the first church in history where nobody has sinned.

I have a low opinion of "high and mighty" Christians who sit on their throne of judgment and infallible knowledge passing judgment and proclaiming righteousness upon themselves. I'm not saying that is what you are doing, just to be cautious not to. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" correct?

I would approach this from two directions: the top-down approach of evaluating what is taught in this church, and the bottom-up approach: what kind of people attend this church.

I recently switched to another church because the name of Jesus was almost never mentioned in worship (instead nonsense songs about the "river", "freedom" and "happiness"). The senior pastor was very solid in the word, however, and I stayed in that church for a long time because of it.

I've previously found good churches by finding good solid christians first: and you know by having deep conversations and praying with them.

At this stage I would spend time in the Word, asking the Holy Spirit to guide you in life. Church life is given an unhealthy emphasis these days, for self-serving reasons (pastors get payed to have you in their organization, but not for your spiritual growth). This way you will get better clarity on what the will of the Lord is (infant baptism and women preachers being some of the mistakes often made).

In any case, don't ever expect a perfect church (doesn't exist!). I draw the line at having a mostly biblical message preached by a male pastor, even if there is some confusion about gender roles here and there. And worship: if you feel the presence of God, its probably a good sign

Emsmom1 said:

I am a new believer. A few weeks ago, I searched for "new Christian class" in my area and found one that was starting the next day. So far, so good. I went and I loved it. I had been dealing with OCD and the sermon was on anxiety and how to find peace in God (I know it wasn't written for me, but it was such a perfect message to hear that day). Later I went to speak to the pastor to find out more about the church, the denomination, their theological stance, etc. It's a nondenominational church, not necessarily Reform or Arminian ("we don't take from any one tradition"). He also described it as an "and" church-I'm not entirely sure what that means.
I've been attending for three weeks. I want to become a member but I have some concerns. First, there is a woman pastor on staff. She doesn't preach but she does hold the title pastor. I know Christians have differing opinions on women in leadership and that is okay. I'm just not sure how I feel about it. Second, they offer both infant baptisms and infant dedications, depending on parental preference. I am apolitical on infant baptism, but for some reason it makes me feel like they are indecisive or maybe just worried about pleasing everyone. Third, in my class yesterday for new Christians we were talking about how we find time to be alone with God and what that looks like. People were saying things like: I make a cup of tea and find a quiet spot, etc. Then a man said he prefers to light a joint before reading the bible. There was silence; I don't think anyone knew what to say. I actually don't think smoking pot is a sin any more than drinking alcohol is (it's legal in my state), but, to me, it's analogous to saying I like to crack open a six-pack during devotions.
So, I'm not sure what to do. I do love this church. And I spoke with a friend who is ordained who pointed out that no church is perfect, which is certainly true. Any thoughts?

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It's important for you to find out what the church's official position is on those comments. Infant baptisms and dedications sounds a lot like their seeing the biblical sides to both. Please ask the pastor what the leadership uses as the basis of their positions, the Scriptures or some other stance.

Scripture tells us that entire households were baptized. That would include infants and children. Scripture also tells us that the first person to preach the good news of the risen Christ was a woman, and women held leadership roles in the early church. If your friend is smoking marijuana for medical reasons I would say that is alright. However I don’t think that getting high in any way increases his understanding of scripture. Enjoy your new church. Give it time. Three weeks isn’t long enough to gain an appreciation for what it might have to offer.

rturner76 said:

I know some churches and churchgoers believe they are righteous but nobody is.

For example, if we are to eject sinners from the church, who will decide what sins get you the boot right away, and who gets a second or third chance. How many times do you allow someone to sin and repent upon return? Who is assigned to monitor people's personal lives in order to catch them in sin?
Why did Christ constantly sit at table with prostitutes, tax collectors, and other brands of sinners? Like Christ said they are in need of a physician and the church is the clinic. If a sinner comes to the church then get rejected by that church when he sins, how are they supposed to learn about a forgiving God?

You want to kick someone out of Bible study because they smoked a joint but it's fine to drink a 6 pack before church? Morphine sulfate is just fine but cannabis is a sin? Do you know how addictive morphine, valium, and Adderall are? Do you know how high they get you? Cannabis is not a hallucinogenic drug so you start off on the wrong foot when describing the effects. I already posted the many conditions that are treated with Cannabis, it's a legit drug no matter what you opinion of it.

Who made your Church's opinions about these matters fact and law? Why would your church have correct theology and other churches are false? The church has a 2000 year history and just as many theologians have written conflicting works on all of these topics. How did your church get every single one right and the 2000 year old Catholic and Orthodox Churches and half the Protestant Churches got it wrong?

"Judge not lest you be judged" "Treat others like you want to be treated" "When you do this for the least of them, you do it for me" "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" All of these things point to compassion and leaving judgment to God. It is the sin of pride to believe you are holier than other people because ALL of us are sinners unless you belong to the first church in history where nobody has sinned.

I have a low opinion of "high and mighty" Christians who sit on their throne of judgment and infallible knowledge passing judgment and proclaiming righteousness upon themselves. I'm not saying that is what you are doing, just to be cautious not to. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" correct?

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When did I say it was okay to get on high on morphine, vallium, and Adderall??? Jesus called sinners to repentance and He told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more. We all basically know what that means. The Bible statement that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God in its context is given as why all need to repent and believe on Jesus. Sin must be repented of and sin is the transgression of God's law. Wise church leaders can indeed for the most part know when church members are striving to please God and come in line with His law and when they are not. Otherwise 1 Corinthians chapter 5 would need to be cut out of the Bible. And in the case being spoken of here there is no monitoring of people's live even needed; the guy said he enjoys smoking joints. Anyone who feared God but needed cannabis for a medical condition wouldn't be talking about it openly in order to not stumble others nor would they not clarify it was for a medical condition if they had to talk about it. Christ never fellowshipped with unrepentant prostitutes nor unrepentant sinners of any variety. And since this is not a debate forum I will not address the one I'm responding to directly, but I will note that it is often the ones who are so adamant that no one can know the truth and try to say that many different views are valid who are among the most certain in their own eyes to believe that they could not be wrong. The Bible is infallible and the ones who are least confident in their own understanding are the ones most likely to go to God's Word to study it diligently and learn its infallible precepts and judgments thoroughly.

ajcarey said:

When did I say it was okay to get on high on morphine, vallium, and Adderall??? Jesus called sinners to repentance and He told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more. We all basically know what that means. The Bible statement that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God in its context is given as why all need to repent and believe on Jesus. Sin must be repented of and sin is the transgression of God's law. Wise church leaders can indeed for the most part know when church members are striving to please God and come in line with His law and when they are not. Otherwise 1 Corinthians chapter 5 would need to be cut out of the Bible. And in the case being spoken of here there is no monitoring of people's live even needed; the guy said he enjoys smoking joints. Anyone who feared God but needed cannabis for a medical condition wouldn't be talking about it openly in order to not stumble others nor would they not clarify it was for a medical condition if they had to talk about it. Christ never fellowshipped with unrepentant prostitutes nor unrepentant sinners of any variety. And since this is not a debate forum I will not address the one I'm responding to directly, but I will note that it is often the ones who are so adamant that no one can know the truth and try to say that many different views are valid who are among the most certain in their own eyes to believe that they could not be wrong. The Bible is infallible and the ones who are least confident in their own understanding are the ones most likely to go to God's Word to study it diligently and learn its infallible precepts and judgments thoroughly.

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Yes, the Bible is infallible however, human interpretation of it is very fallible. I don't recall if it says in the Bible that every sinner that ate with Christ repented first. He was looking to convert sinners, not just comfort believers.

Smoking a joint before you read because it makes it easier to concentrate is hardly like stealing from the church. Am I advocating that people get intoxicated as a lifestyle? Not at all. What I am saying is we don't know people's reasons for using something with medicinal properties. I wanted to illustrate that Morphine, Adderall etc are useful medications, however, they also have a euphoric effect the same as cannabis but are more addictive and can be deadly. IMO That is worse. I

People respond to kindness much more often than rejection. If you reject someone because they struggle with a particular sin, they are more likely to reject the church right back. Embrace people with all of their faults and they are more likely to embrace the church and Christian living. I think a church that invites sinners is going to convert more sinners than a church that rejects sinners.

But at some point, one just has to agree to disagree agree to disagree in peace.

rturner76 said:

Yes, the Bible is infallible however, human interpretation of it is very fallible. I don't recall if it says in the Bible that every sinner that ate with Christ repented first. He was looking to convert sinners, not just comfort believers.

Smoking a joint before you read because it makes it easier to concentrate is hardly like stealing from the church. Am I advocating that people get intoxicated as a lifestyle? Not at all. What I am saying is we don't know people's reasons for using something with medicinal properties. I wanted to illustrate that Morphine, Adderall etc are useful medications, however, they also have a euphoric effect the same as cannabis but are more addictive and can be deadly. IMO That is worse. I

People respond to kindness much more often than rejection. If you reject someone because they struggle with a particular sin, they are more likely to reject the church right back. Embrace people with all of their faults and they are more likely to embrace the church and Christian living. I think a church that invites sinners is going to convert more sinners than a church that rejects sinners.

But at some point, one just has to agree to disagree agree to disagree in peace.

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To conclude that no one who is diligent and honest can come to definite, correct conclusions about God's Truth from studying the Bible is in itself a definite conclusion that one asserts to surely be correct. The Bible teaches that both theft and lack of sobriety will keep a person out of heaven. Heavenly realities must be represented in the church for God to be properly represented. A church should help anyone who expresses an interest in following the Lord and work to lead them to repentance. It should never allow unrepentant people in its membership nor turn a blind eye to sin in the church. God's way is not to embrace the sinner as he/she embraces sin and refuses to be broken and obedient before God. That is being complicit with sin and a church cannot have a holy, faithful testimony that pleases God that way.

1 Corinthians 5:6-13: "6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

Revelation 21:25-27: "25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."

Revelation 22:12-15: "12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

I have seen many more transformations in a church that preached repentance and grace the ones that preach condemnation and hell. That's just me and my Parish. The people who sin and lie about it to be accepted IMO is far worse that a sinner who admits their faults in the church where there can be healing. As humans, we can't judge because we don't know what everyone is doing. So how can we judge the one who sins boldly over the one who sins on private?

I say anyone who wants to sit in the seat of judgment thinking they are the keepers of infallible Biblical knowledge is welcome to but the first will be last and the last will be first.

Emsmom1 said:

Thank you, Oscarr. The sermons seem biblically sound (my dad was an associate pastor when I was growing up so I was raised in church; it's my belief that's new). They have been going through Philippians. Every sermon has been relevant to me and I feel such a peace and happiness (entirely new to me) when I attend.

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sounds like it is worth staying there then.

rturner76 said:

I have seen many more transformations in a church that preached repentance and grace the ones that preach condemnation and hell. That's just me and my Parish. The people who sin and lie about it to be accepted IMO is far worse that a sinner who admits their faults in the church where there can be healing. As humans, we can't judge because we don't know what everyone is doing. So how can we judge the one who sins boldly over the one who sins on private?

I say anyone who wants to sit in the seat of judgment thinking they are the keepers of infallible Biblical knowledge is welcome to but the first will be last and the last will be first.

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A church cannot preach Biblical repentance and grace without preaching Biblical condemnation and hell. They are all intertwined. What you may have seen are people brought to a false security and deceptive peace in their sin. Men of God in the Bible warned sinners to flee from the wrath to come and bring forth works meet for repentance. Without God's wrath to come on sinners there is no need for God's grace nor need for repentance in anyone.

I don't know why you consider by implication that the only alternative to sinning boldly is sinning in private. You are also basically saying that a government shouldn't enforce the law because the crimes people get away with without the government's knowledge might be worse than the one's the government has knowledge of. I want to follow the example of the Apostles and let a church judge what it knows according to God's Word and leave the rest to God. And a church that accepts those who brag about their sin publicly is encouraging people to sin in private anyways. If joe smoe can glory in pot use in church, and the church puts up with it, surely it must be okay then to use pot at home and not talk about it in church. Your views make doing evil acceptable as long as you don't hide it. The Bible teaches not such a thing.

The first being last and the last being first in the Bible has nothing to do with anything which you are trying to say.

ajcarey said:

A church cannot preach Biblical repentance and grace without preaching Biblical condemnation and hell. They are all intertwined. What you may have seen are people brought to a false security and deceptive peace in their sin. Men of God in the Bible warned sinners to flee from the wrath to come and bring forth works meet for repentance. Without God's wrath to come on sinners there is no need for God's grace nor need for repentance in anyone.

I don't know why you consider by implication that the only alternative to sinning boldly is sinning in private. You are also basically saying that a government shouldn't enforce the law because the crimes people get away with without the government's knowledge might be worse than the one's the government has knowledge of. I want to follow the example of the Apostles and let a church judge what it knows according to God's Word and leave the rest to God. And a church that accepts those who brag about their sin publicly is encouraging people to sin in private anyways. If joe smoe can glory in pot use in church, and the church puts up with it, surely it must be okay then to use pot at home and not talk about it in church. Your views make doing evil acceptable as long as you don't hide it. The Bible teaches not such a thing.

The first being last and the last being first in the Bible has nothing to do with anything which you are trying to say.

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I agree that any church should preach obedience. Churches also should not condone "bragging" about your sin. If it is an obvious sin, they should be told that if they should seek help with their sin or not talk about it.

The analogy of the government not enforcing the law on those who break it in secret is not applicable to the church. It is not the church's job to seek and prosecute sinners. The church is there to seek and heal sinners. God will speak to them r not without running them out of the church where there is no help for sinners.

The bold sinner can be challenged and encouraged to repent. The secret sinners let their sin fester unnoticed. For example, a pastor having an affair with their secretary. Not typical but it happens. Those relationships can go on for decades when all involved remain silent and the stink of the sin grows and festers while people sit and smile at each other as hypocrites. I believe Christ hates a sinner who is also a hypocrite than an ignorant sinner who is seeking him but has not had a full conversion yet.

Something like pot smoking is subjective. Some old fashioned people only see it as a recreational drug with no medicinal value and may want to punish or send away a parishioner. The people that know better won't be so outraged by a parishioner who uses it and will disagree with the effort to oust them.

If you are looking to purify your congregation you have to root out the domestic abusers and people sleeping around with half the congregation or stealing from or in the church. Punish the sinners who are hurting others in the church body. I can understand ousting those people though most won't admit to what they are doing and live as hypocrites.

I just think we have to be careful when we sit in judgment of others. Obviously some of us think that the church's job is one thing and others feel it is something else. That is why there are half a million denominations and non-denominations. Each one, of course, having the one true interpretation of the Bible and tradition.

Just different church cultures run their churches differently