BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

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FineLinen

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Grace PLUS NOTHING

This is not to say that our efforts are not essential or that there will be nothing for us to do since it is God Who saves us from our failings.

To the contrary, God graciously saves us by causing us to work, “training us that, disowning irreverence and worldly desires, we should be living sanely and justly and devoutly in the current eon” Titus 2:11,12.

But our efforts are merely a product; they are the means through which God saves us. We contribute nothing.

It is not a question of our discipline and volition, but of pride and self-reliance concerning our discipline and volition, of boasting in the flesh instead of glorying in the transforming power of God. As long as we continue to see ourselves, in the final sense, as the key to anything, we will remain proud, antagonistic to “the grace of God in truth” Col. 1:6.

It is one thing to conceive of ourselves, in a dutiful sense and relatively speaking, as “cooperating” with the Lord Jesus, as He leads us into paths of better service. It is quite another, however, proudly to fancy ourselves to be so utterly independent of the Supreme Deity Himself, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, that even He is at a loss to change our will or walk without our help.

Luke 6:32-35 shows us what God’s grace (thanks) is; He is gracious to the wicked, which means sinners like we all were when He was gracious to us. It’s not that we have to preach so they can be saved, otherwise we’re responsible for their “eternal damnation”, and they have to receive the message (if we happen to present it to them), or else they will be eternally damned. Salvation is not based on human actions, but on divine actions. He chooses who to save and when, and at that moment, that soul is saved. And He will save all, as He has clearly said He will do.

We believe the message we heard, and we preach because we are so commanded, but God doesn’t depend upon us to save ourselves, nor does He depend upon our conveying the message, to save others. He is the only Sovereign, and He so arranges EVERYTHING that each will be saved.

Free will and chance are myths which have completely twisted the mindset of many Christians.

- James Coram-
 
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zoidar

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FineLinen

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Too much to read. Please just share quotes of the Early Church to show they held to universialism.

Dear Zoidar: Skip it all. Head to your nearest closet. Shut the door. Close your mouth & listen to Father.

Do not come out of your closet till you hear His Voice.

The Prophets

"He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass; as showers that water the earth. In his days shall the righteous flourish: and abundance of peace so long as the moon endures. He shall have dominion from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth." Ps. 72: 6-8.

"All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord; and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before you." Ps. 22: 27.

"All nations whom you have made shall come and worship before you, O Lord; and shall glorify your name. "Ps. 86: 9.

"Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favorable no more? Is his mercy clean gone forever? does his promise fail for evermore? Has God forgotten to be gracious? has he in anger shut up his tender mercies? Selah.

And I said, This is my infirmity: but I will remember the years of the right hand of the Most High." - Ps. 77: 10.

"For he says, The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger forever". Ps. 103: 9.

"For his anger endures but a moment; in his favor is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning." Ps. 30: 5.

"If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; if they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; then will I visit their transgressions with the rod, and their iniquities with stripes, nevertheless my loving kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail." Ps. 89: 30-33.

"The Lord is gracious and full of compassion; slow to anger and of great mercy. The Lord is good to all and his tender mercies are over all his works." Ps. 165: 8, 9.

"All nations whom you have made shall come and worship before you, O Lord, and shall glorify your name. "Ps. 86: 9.

"O you that hears prayer, unto you shall all flesh come." Ps. 65: 2.

"All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto the Lord; and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before you." Ps. 22: 27.

"He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces." Isa. 25: 8.

"Look unto me and be you saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself; the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear, surely shall say: "In the Lord have I righteousness and strength." Isa. 45: 24-27.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul and shall be satisfied."Isa. 53: 11.

"As the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, and returns not thither, but waters the earth and makes it bring forth and bud that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth, it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isa. 55: 10, 11.

"Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget you." Isa. 49: 15.

"Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke although I was a husband unto them, says the Lord. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, says the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and will be their God and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, know the Lord, for they shall all know me from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the Lord, for I will forgive their sin and I will remember their iniquity no more." Jer. 31: 31-34.

"I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be your plagues: O grave, I will be your destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes." Hos. 13: 14.

"Who is a God like unto you, that pardons iniquity, and passes by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retains not his anger forever because he delights in mercy. He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us. He will subdue our iniquities, and you will cast all their sins into the depth of the sea. You will perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which you have sworn unto our fathers from the days of old." Mic. 7: 18, 19, 20.

"And there was given him dominion, and glory and a kingdom, that all people, nations and languages should serve him: his dominion is an ever lasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." Dan. 7: 14.
 
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Skidder

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Right, atonement for ALL sin, not just a select group of individuals.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Try not taking my quote out of context. I said IN CHRIST, not outside of Christ. The bible clearly says redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, is only IN CHRIST. They have to be IN CHRIST to be redeemed.
 
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FineLinen

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Too much to read. Please just share quotes of the Early Church to show they held to universialism.

Dear Zoidar: I have a dear friend who passed away this past year. His name was Steve Wilber. He was so hungry for God he walked 15 miles each way to Church. Now, assuming you want to repeat "too much to read", know this, Father will not make this easy for you>>>>head to your closet!

 
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zoidar

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Dear Zoidar: I have a dear friend who passed away this past year. His name was Steve Wilbur. He was so hungry for God he walked 15 miles each way to Church. Now, assuming you want to repeat "too much to read", know this, Father will not make this easy for you>>>>head to your closet!

No quotes then?
 
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Saint Steven

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So it is coercion---spend some time in hell until you change your mind---isn't that what you are saying?if hell is a "refining fire"---then we do not need Jesus to have died for our sins---they're "refined away"
No. We can never atone for our own sin. Nor will time in "hell" pay for it.
 
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Saint Steven

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Adventists think no such foolish thing!! We believe many from different denominations will be saved. God makes the decision for only He knows the heart. "Other sheep have I which are not of this fold."
That is a lie that is told by the Anti-SDA's. Even EGW says there are many in other churches that will be saved.
I've heard that argument before. But when I ask about specifics I am told that if someone is doing everything the Adventists do then they will be saved. Otherwise, not so much.
 
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Saint Steven

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We do not save anyone, but we can deter many from making that choice. If we do so, there will be a judgment against us for doing so. They can be lost because you said nothing when you had the chance.
Only The Holy Spirit can lead us to salvation. ...
Only God can save someone. No one is saved, or lost, on our account. We need to be a witness and leave the results to God.
 
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Saint Steven

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You make no room for those who do not wish to live in a world where God reigns---and there are many. You simply refuse to acknowledge that such people exist. But they do.
No. I get that. And I can see why they feel that way. They have had it with this fallen world and blame God. I can empathize some days. In time, everyone will change their mind. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess... Every means all. In heaven, on earth, and under the earth. (the realm of the dead)
 
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Saint Steven

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Try not taking my quote out of context. I said IN CHRIST, not outside of Christ. The bible clearly says redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, is only IN CHRIST. They have to be IN CHRIST to be redeemed.
I think the only thing we disagree on here is the time frame. Ultimately, no one is outside of Christ. But it may not be in this lifetime.
 
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mmksparbud

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I've heard that argument before. But when I ask about specifics I am told that if someone is doing everything the Adventists do then they will be saved. Otherwise, not so much.

Never heard that. We were raised with, nothing you do can save you---only the grace of God. We keep His commandments, do as He says, because we are saved and for love of Him, not in order to be saved. That and, salvation is not being in heaven---it is being with God and His Son. If it is not them you want, but freedom from hell, you will get nowhere for it is only through our love of God that we get to be with Him. He is the reason for heaven. We obey what He says so we can be with Him and for love of Him who died for us and loves us so much He gave up everything in order to reconcile us to Him.
 
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mmksparbud

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Only God can save someone. No one is saved, or lost, on our account. We need to be a witness and leave the results to God.

Eze_3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze_3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze_33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
Eze_33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
Eze 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
Eze 33:15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
Eze 33:17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
Eze 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
Eze 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
Eze 33:20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.
 
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mmksparbud

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No. I get that. And I can see why they feel that way. They have had it with this fallen world and blame God. I can empathize some days. In time, everyone will change their mind. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess... Every means all. In heaven, on earth, and under the earth. (the realm of the dead)

That happens because God is supreme and they will acknowledge it for they have seen that for a fact.
According to you, spending time in the "refining fires of hell" they come to see the love of ||God!! Really? They're burning and see the love of God in hell? They acknowledge Him as supreme commander before they go to the lake of fire---not after.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
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FineLinen

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Universialism fills me with godly anger, not because I don't want everyone to be saved, because I do, but because it's leading people to damnation. So many today fall in this pit, it's so easy to believe, yet it's from the mouth of the enemy. It's quenching the Holy Spirit.

BREAKING GOOD NEWS

Apostle Paul reports that the impact of death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord, Jesus Christ, 2,000 years ago shown to be more, not less, powerful than the disobedience of man He created 4,000 years prior (Romans 5:19)!

Christians "horrified" and "offended" by this "heresy!" Furiously argue redemption of all mankind is an "insult to the cross of Christ"... -John Moneypenny-

 
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zoidar

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Dear Zoidar: That is precisely correct!


This is not how I believe it works. Faith has to be lived, or else it's dead. If we believe, but live like unbelievers, we will also be judged like unbelievers.
 
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FineLinen

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This is not how I believe it works. Faith has to be lived, or else it's dead. If we believe, but live like unbelievers, we will also be judged like unbelievers.

Dear Zoidar: that my friend was very short closet time.

There is but one way into the Tree of Life. The route is by way of flaming swords swirling in every direction. Perhaps we do not like the Royal Route, if so, our Father has the same Route expressed as destruction. We attempt to save our life, but alas we must still face apollumi.

Save your life, lose it!
 
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Saint Steven

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This is not how I believe it works. Faith has to be lived, or else it's dead. If we believe, but live like unbelievers, we will also be judged like unbelievers.
Matthew 11:18-19
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

Luke 5:33
They said to him, “John’s disciples often fast and pray, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours go on eating and drinking.”

Luke 18:11-14
The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
Apostle Paul reports that the impact of death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord, Jesus Christ, 2,000 years ago shown to be more, not less, powerful than the disobedience of man He created 4,000 years prior (Romans 5:19)!...
Anybody can make scripture say almost anything by quoting selective verses out-of-context. Here are a few more verses by Paul.
Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
The converse of this verse is "if we have NOT been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall NOT be in the likeness of his resurrection: "
Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live with Him.
The converse is "If we be NOT dead with Christ we shall NOT live with Him."
Galatians 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
The converse is "we shall NOT reap if we faint"
2 Timothy 2:11-12
(11) It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
(12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
The converse is "if we be NOT dead with Him we shall NOT live with Him. "If we do NOT suffer [with Him] we shall NOT reign with Him."
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Even a multitude of people , not even believing the false teaching of u.r., but simply believing they are saved when they are not saved. (regardless of their belief or thoughts)... They are lost forever. They don't , however, "find out" until Judgment Day when JESUS TELLS THEM.
 
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