How do you feel that LGBT will now be taught to Primary School children?

yeshuaslavejeff

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The connection is in context they are both sinful and wicked and there's nothing to separate one from the other when both (sins, attitudes, inclinations with no self control, wickednesses) are in one.
No, you do not. No matter how often you repeat the blood libel there is no comparison between consensual sex and raping kids.
 
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Desk trauma

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There are heterosexual pedophiles as well.
Yet that’s not used to condemn heterosexuals as a group nor do people attempt to conflate all heterosexuals as pedophiles as they do with the homosexual blood libel.
 
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Desk trauma

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I didn't understand the "homosexual blood libel" comment, and was just emphasizing that I am not saying anything about homosexuality, but pedophilia.
It’s the libel that homosexuality equates to pedophilia or that social acceptance of homosexuality leads to acceptance of
pedophilia because reasons.
It’s an inevitable thing that comes up in these discussions.
 
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ruthiesea

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I don’t know what teaching LBDQ means. Children should be taught that there should be equality under the law, violence against those who are different is unethical, and perhaps that hatred is a waste of energy. Had such things been taught in schools when I was growing up desegregation would have been much simpler.
 
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There will be no OPT OUT OPTION.............
I have withdrawn my children from the public school system and placed them in private Christian school. California then passed legislation that essentially forced private schools to comply with the new curriculum. The school my children attended decided to use the opportunity to teach the children about what the Bible says about sexual immorality and how the world is attacking God's proper order.
 
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It’s the libel that homosexuality equates to pedophilia or that social acceptance of homosexuality leads to acceptance of
pedophilia because reasons.
It’s an inevitable thing that comes up in these discussions.
Well...after the progressive left normalizes transgenders and homosexuality, where do they go next? They have to go somewhere because failure to do so would render them not progressive. I see it now, "Love has no age" will be the next battle cry of "progress".
 
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Well...after the progressive left normalizes transgenders and homosexuality, where do they go next? They have to go somewhere because failure to do so would render them not progressive. I see it now, "Love has no age" will be the next battle cry of "progress".
Why yes, that's the nonsense I am talking about. Thanks for the example.
 
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Aryeh Jay

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I have withdrawn my children from the public school system and placed them in private Christian school. California then passed legislation that essentially forced private schools to comply with the new curriculum. The school my children attended decided to use the opportunity to teach the children about what the Bible says about sexual immorality and how the world is attacking God's proper order.

Back to the 2nd Division?
 
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muichimotsu

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Hi J Daniel. It's been like this in my state of the United States (California) for a few years now. I think since 2011 or so? (I don't know for sure, as I don't have children, so I don't keep up with this sort of thing very closely.)

Depending on how it's done, I could see it being okay. Lessons about how people who identify as LGBT+ are people who are deserving of respect and dignity like any other people would be a good reminder to everyone. I don't think it will actually be approached that way (in California, so far as I've seen, it's integrated into the history units at particular stages, so that LGBT contributions to American history in this or that example are held up, and heroes are made out of those people; I don't really understand that, as it's not like having an LGBT soldier in the American Revolution or something would change its outcome one way or another), but it would be nice.

Do you have any insight to share regarding how it will be integrated into teaching at schools in your country? I'm curious. Here in the USA it seems like California is recognized as having led the way in this topic, so the states that are picking it up more recently are mostly following that way of teaching it, which seems a little strange to me. I live in California already, and when I go to other places I don't really want them to be like where I already live. That's the point of travelling. Anyway, I'm interested in your viewpoint.
No one's claiming something that specific in regards to LGBTQ people making that kind of difference, particularly on a scale like a war. Figures advancing civil rights and such would be the more likely aspect, if I had to guess. But it's not like representation is a bad thing, in the same vein as any group would like to have people know that they were part of various events (African Americans in the Civil War, which was in a movie, iirc)

And the variation within states is not your responsibility to change as a traveler, unless you intend to move there and vote accordingly to oppose such things. But your opposition is also not necessarily pertinent when the execution isn't affecting you and the perceived threats are more a slippery slope fallacy than anything demonstrable.
 
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muichimotsu

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The connection is in context they are both sinful and wicked and there's nothing to separate one from the other when both (sins, attitudes, inclinations with no self control, wickednesses) are in one.
Because hasty generalization totally isn't a logical fallacy that's being committed here in regards to making a false association between 2 things you can link by vague moralizing...nope...nothing fishy going on here with that line of thought
 
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muichimotsu

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Well...after the progressive left normalizes transgenders and homosexuality, where do they go next? They have to go somewhere because failure to do so would render them not progressive. I see it now, "Love has no age" will be the next battle cry of "progress".
Pretty sure that's a strawman of what progressive entails in the same vein as someone saying that evolution is just some constant process creating completely new things, when it's not. Progressivism doesn't mean you just constantly are open to new things, that's not only a strawman, but a slippery slope argument, saying that it's "Just a matter of time before they normalize being a pedophile" or other sound bytes like that.
 
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muichimotsu

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It's about accepting what one "cannot change" (it's natural!) and "boiling the frog." What you're calling "rape" they're going to call consent (proof here). As soon as they're either accepted into LGBT or the AHA states that it's now a sexual orientation the push to change the narrative will occur. We find this same progression through the rest of LGBT (compare the 1990s to now).

No, because 1) appeal to nature is a fallacy and 2) desires that are demonstrably damaging are very different than desires that fit within a normative variation of human sexuality. Comparing pedophilia and homosexuality misses the point both in terms of sexual orientation and arguments about it being innate along with what is considered mental illness and dysfunction, neither of which apply to homosexuality, but do apply to pedophilia in terms of its essential nature and the desire thereof.

But that's not to say there should be a stigma merely in having the desire, bad as it technically is, because many pedophiles likely are not accepting of those desires and it causes major distress, so giving them understanding while helping them to deal with the desires that are damaging (because children cannot give informed enthusiastic consent)

Pretty sure the link you gave didn't even remotely support the idea of changing consent, especially because it was dealing with a teenager, rather than a child, both being minors, but one having arguably more understanding than another, but both also being subject to manipulation (which was what the guy in question admitted as well)
 
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muichimotsu

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I don't consider any person older than 11 to be a child . I am curious as to what grade level people think sexuality should be addressed in school. It seems that the word child is not that universally defined. Should a 5 year old be taught about LGBT and Heterosexuals? What is the rationale behind any decision on those things?
Sexuality and romantic expression aren't the same thing and you can teach the latter to kids quite easily, I'd imagine. Like how you'd explain divorce and remarriage, it's variations within normal human relationships of that nature.
 
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muichimotsu

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It's happening slowly in America too. Thankfully we have private Christian schools we can send our kids to.
Yeah, because making an us/them dichotomy is totally not alienating and bordering on fringe cults the further you get. Nope...nothing weird there about the segregation of the faithful in response to stuff they don't want to understand or insist on understanding in one way
 
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muichimotsu

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If a government wishes to instill the government's spiritual, moral and cultural values into children before they are mature enough to consider such things independently and with the use of any skill in critical thinking that is AFAIK indoctrination. Certainly that has been put forward by many on CF as indoctrination when it is being done by parents in regards to their religious values. The fact that there are people with differing lifestyles does not cause a government to instill spiritual , moral and cultural values into children at an age where they have no reason to consider any lifestyle unusual let alone unacceptable. It seems to me you are of the opinion that the government ought to have more influence on the spiritual, moral and cultural values of a child than the child's family and if the two differ in their opinion it is the government's spiritual, moral and cultural values that must be instilled in spite of the wishes of the family. Is that a correct evaluation of your position?
Piggybacking slightly, but I'd question greatly whether a descriptive education to children about the reality of LGBTQ people existing would constitute indoctrination, used moreso to talk about prescriptive education, to approve of something, which is not really what's happening.

It's indoctrination in terms of taking a child to church and expecting them to retain any it until they reach an age where they really can understand. I went to Presbyterian churches mostly, though when I went to Catholic school for 2 years and crossed myself (a matter of habit because that's what was done at the morning service, iirc), it was almost shocking to the adults, as if I actually understood that in the first place (I didn't I was 6 or 7 years old)

It's hardly indoctrination when minorities are represented and are out in public recognition (Ellen being gay was my first real exposure to gay people and I didn't just think it was okay because a celebrity was gay, it was just...they like people of the opposite sex...okay, that's fine, no real demonstrable harm that would seem to occur in my mind)

Also, not sure it's fair to say the government is instilling any such values unless you can actually demonstrate it's something encoded in the government's official documents or such, rather than, as I pointed out, being a descriptive education, rather than prescriptive indoctrination (leave that to the religions, am I right?)

This whole situation would be avoided easily if parents just realized they don't like the idea of their child learning something they don't approve of and just put them in private school or such rather than crying foul after the fact, as if their ignorance is an excuse
 
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muichimotsu

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I disagree. If Christians abstain from speaking their religious views when it comes to government policy, the atheists and secularists will take over and spread their version of untruth onto the public. In doing so, they will lead generations of souls into perdition. Let’s be wise and not forgo our godly obligations as holy people of God.
Speaking your religious views does not equate to legislating those views in any meaningful sense that would infringe on the rights of others, which includes freedom from government religious indoctrination. And secularism and atheism are not religions, nor are thing fallaciously conflated with such positions indicative of religious indoctrination if the government has schools teach it (evolution, germ theory, gravity, etc)

Funny you say "Their version of" untruth, because it kind of sounds like you're admitting your own position is also untrue.

And yeah, others have pointed out that the bible doesn't actually talk much about involvement in politics, because that wasn't the concern of ancient Israelites or ancient Christians. Ironically, they seemed to implicitly advocate for church/state separation, put forward by Roger Williams, a Baptist preacher.
 
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muichimotsu

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The LGBT lifestyle is NOT acceptable. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 says that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God, which means there isn’t any salvation for unrepentant homosexuals who engage in immoral debauchery. If schools in Britain are teaching LGBT acceptance, then the UK is doomed.

Never understood why it's called a lifestyle, because it's not reflective of how you live your life in general, it's one aspect of a broader lifestyle (which can vary greatly and isn't necessarily a unified thing in the first place, unlike...nudism, for instance or being a vegetarian). Me being straight is no more a lifestyle, because it's not really a major part of my identity (also, I'm arguably more asexual, so heteroromantic might be more accurate).

And is this the hill you want to die on versus the supposed Muslim influx that's a more clear danger depending on the level of extremism of said immigrants?
 
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grasping the after wind

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Sexuality and romantic expression aren't the same thing and you can teach the latter to kids quite easily, I'd imagine. Like how you'd explain divorce and remarriage, it's variations within normal human relationships of that nature.

I would use the term expression of sexuality rather than romantic expression as I don't believe the term romantic expression has as concrete a meaning as expression of sexuality. Nonetheless I do not see the need to teach children sexuality. What about sexuality does a child need to learn from a teacher that the child is not already aware of?

I do not see how pointing out to children that, though some people have different sexual attractions all but one or two such attractions are equally valid expressions of sexuality is anything other than engaging in indoctrination. The former i.e. that there are different attractions is a fact. The later i.e. that one type of attraction is as morally valid as another is an opinion. An opinion that few adhere to when it comes to certain variations ( pedophilia for instance). Teaching children that a particular opinion is the correct one to hold would be IMO indoctrination. I contend that we all indoctrinate children and not only that, but there is good reason for us to do so. It is foolish not to make sure that our children are indoctrinated in the values we ourselves hold. If we do not do so, then others will indoctrinate them with values we are opposed to. Indoctrination into a value system does not preclude a thinking adult from reaching different conclusions on their own but indoctrination coupled with being deprived of the tools for critical thinking will do that. I prefer the education system to fight indoctrination by providing those tools rather than using opposing view indoctrination for that purpose. If a child is being indoctrinated in opposite directions from two sources then the child must pick a side and see the one side as ally and the other as the enemy. If instead a child is taught how to think critically as the child grows he/she will mature intellectually and realize that she/he needs to examine what he/she has been told and be able to decide rationally what to believe and not believe. In this way the person does not see the world as the good guys vs the bad guys but as humans with different ideas that are all neither all good or all bad but just trying to figure things out the best way they can. They will not see people with different ideas about sexual morality as having evil intent but just as people that have a different POV. The "I'm right and you are wrong on purpose because you are evil" mentality does not exist for a critical thinking person.
 
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muichimotsu

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I would use the term expression of sexuality rather than romantic expression as I don't believe the term romantic expression has as concrete a meaning as expression of sexuality. Nonetheless I do not see the need to teach children sexuality. What about sexuality does a child need to learn from a teacher that the child is not already aware of?



I do not see how pointing out to children that, though some people have different sexual attractions all but one or two such attractions are equally valid expressions of sexuality is anything other than engaging in indoctrination. The former i.e. that there are different attractions is a fact. The later i.e. that one type of attraction is as morally valid as another is an opinion. An opinion that few adhere to when it comes to certain variations ( pedophilia for instance). Teaching children that a particular opinion is the correct one to hold would be IMO indoctrination. I contend that we all indoctrinate children and not only that, but there is good reason for us to do so. It is foolish not to make sure that our children are indoctrinated in the values we ourselves hold. If we do not do so, then others will indoctrinate them with values we are opposed to. Indoctrination into a value system does not preclude a thinking adult from reaching different conclusions on their own but indoctrination coupled with being deprived of the tools for critical thinking will do that. I prefer the education system to fight indoctrination by providing those tools rather than using opposing view indoctrination for that purpose. If a child is being indoctrinated in opposite directions from two sources then the child must pick a side and see the one side as ally and the other as the enemy. If instead a child is taught how to think critically as the child grows he/she will mature intellectually and realize that she/he needs to examine what he/she has been told and be able to decide rationally what to believe and not believe. In this way the person does not see the world as the good guys vs the bad guys but as humans with different ideas that are all neither all good or all bad but just trying to figure things out the best way they can. They will not see people with different ideas about sexual morality as having evil intent but just as people that have a different POV. The "I'm right and you are wrong on purpose because you are evil" mentality does not exist for a critical thinking person.



Romantic entails expressions of affection in the specific relationships where the love is of that exclusive nature and not friendship or the like, it's not that complicated or unclear. And I didn't say a child needed to learn about sexuality, that's arguably for teenagers in health and wellness class. A child can learn about how you should ask someone if you want to hug them, how kissing has particular implications depending on how you do it, etc. I believe the Netherlands has something in that vein where it's quite age appropriate and yet teaching kids about such things like consent and affection in a way they can understand

Except when you're pointing it out and showing how there aren't really any major differences, the condemnation of one being unnatural, etc is purely preferential and subjective in the first place. It's not like kids can't learn about evolution and then have their parents indoctrinate them horribly into believing creationism and the like. Having the knowledge is not the same as saying the knowledge is unquestionable, that's religion's purview

Nice try, but not all attractions are equal in terms of the behavior that results from them, pedophilia being demonstrably harmful, because children cannot give informed consent. If the difference is superficial at best, like a man liking a woman versus a man or a woman liking the same sex, then it's not the government's job to talk about prescriptive ideas, it's still just saying that these exist and that there's not necessarily good reasons to discriminate apart from our distinction of them in terminology

Indoctrination tends to mean teaching someone to accept beliefs without critical thinking, you're talking about instruction, which is more open to criticism in the first place versus telling someone they must believe something, which isn't what public education would be doing anymore than they're saying you MUST believe in biological evolution in a science class

There's no need to polarize and you can teach a child that: differing opinions doesn't make the wrong one your enemy necessarily or that it must be regarded as such.

The problem becomes how society at large isn't necessarily encouraging critical thinking, even if educational institutions might be doing so. It's a broader issue you're pointing out and trying to make it primarily about public schools coloring worldviews rather than culture at large doing it
 
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How do you feel that LGBT will now be taught to Primary School children?

I think it would be a great thing.

Children need to learn to be respectful of others and to learn about all the repression and oppression that certain groups have had to endure and are enduring.

I think primary school children should learn about slavery, about how long it has taken for women to get rights (such as the right to vote) about how poorly people in LGBT have been treated and that there is nothing wrong with people who identify as LGBT and that it is a valid option.
 
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