Public Testimony of Vindman and Williams

Hank77

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That's one thing I keep getting from all this. These diplomats may be sincere and well meaning and it might even be argued they're experts in the field. So what!

Ultimately who has to give account for how things turn out? The President does to THE PEOPLE come at whatever time there's an election. Having experts on the field are great and wonderful but a part of why THE PEOPLE elect a President isn't always because he or she has expertise of knowledge BUT ALSO that they trust that leaders gut feel of making decisions YES that might even go against the status quo.

We ALL KNOW and none can deny it that if a major foreign policy was carried out which flopped, it's the President that pays the price....not whatever low level diplomat. Or do we really think we'd see the likes of CNN if something flopped point and condemn whatever ambassador and talk about poor ole Trump that it shouldn't be attributed to him? Do we think he wouldn't be held solely responsible? Seeing HE IS he gets to call the policy NOT THEM. If they want things their way they need to run for office.
The nation and the people pay the price for bad policy.

There is not one person who holds all the knowledge, or has the gut "Feeling" for all policy. That is why it is so important to have experts in advisery positions, and that those making the final decisions are humble and sincere enough to listen to their advisers. A know-it-all in any supervisory position is unwise.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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He's been quite open about his personal bias in favor of Kiev and against Russia.
Ok? As a whole, US policy seems to be biased in favor of Ukraine over Russia. We're sending them military aid, including missiles, to fight the Russians. That's something that Republicans have been very adamant about.

He determines the agenda, or at least he's supposed to.
Sure, with the assistance of his advisors. No individual is capable of knowing every piece of information relevant to every international situation.

Diplomats are in charge of how business is done. The President, per the US Constitution, decides what business is to be done. Thing is deep state is so used to telling the President what they think the mission should be that now that we have a President who actually tries to implement the foreign policy he ran on, we have a federal bureaucracy that blatantly works to undermine him. It's been so long since they've been expected to stay in their lane they think that of the Presidency as just a figurehead for their preferred policies, which, as I've said, for a while it has been.
I'll point out that the oath of office taken by government employees requires them to protect the country. If they feel that the President's desired foreign policy goals go against the interests of the country, then opposing his policies would be their sworn duty.
 
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whatbogsends

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He's been quite open about his personal bias in favor of Kiev and against Russia.
He determines the agenda, or at least he's supposed to.
Diplomats are in charge of how business is done. The President, per the US Constitution, decides what business is to be done. Thing is deep state is so used to telling the President what they think the mission should be that now that we have a President who actually tries to implement the foreign policy he ran on, we have a federal bureaucracy that blatantly works to undermine him. It's been so long since they've been expected to stay in their lane they think that of the Presidency as just a figurehead for their preferred policies, which, as I've said, for a while it has been.
When the President sets the mission to align with dictators that have attacked our democracy and alienate our democratic allies, it should absolutely raise red flags by other members of the government.

When the President sets the mission to advance his political interests at the expense our national interests, it should absolutely raise red flags by other members of the government.

When the President sets the mission in secret, outside of regular diplomatic channels, it should absolutely raise red flags by other members of the government.

Trump's actions do all of the above.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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Ok? As a whole, US policy seems to be biased in favor of Ukraine over Russia. We're sending them military aid, including missiles, to fight the Russians.

Except they're not fighting the Russians, they're butchering their people, in spite of their own constitution's prohibition against the use of the Ukrainian army against Ukrainian people.

If they feel that the President's desired foreign policy goals go against the interests of the country, then opposing his policies would be their sworn duty.

It is the President who decides what the interests of the country are, not them. If they cannot in good conscience implement his policies, then what they should do, if they have any integrity, is resign. Personal political views are not an excuse for insubordination. I didn't believe the war in Iraq was in the US interests - but I went.

When the President sets the mission to align with dictators that have attacked our democracy and alienate our democratic allies, it should absolutely raise red flags by other members of the government.

The Constitution permits him to align with who he chooses and besides, these are the policies that he ran on. Candidates that are hostile to Russia tend to get rejected at the polls.

When the President sets the mission to advance his political interests at the expense our national interests, it should absolutely raise red flags by other members of the government.

The President, as the elected representative of the American people, determines our national interests, not unelected bureaucrats. The American people apparently do not perceive any interest of theirs would be served by conflict with Russia. Unfortunately, entrenched ideological fanatics in our government, who we call the deep state, are determined to impose such a conflict on America with or without their people's consent.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Except they're not fighting the Russians, they're butchering their people, in spite of their own constitution's prohibition against the use of the Ukrainian army against Ukrainian people.
Uh, what? How's Moscow this time of year? Getting chilly?

I'm not going to address the rest of your post, because it's clear that we have a fundamental disagreement about the extent of presidential power, but this is just blatant Russian propaganda.
 
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tall73

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Who knows? Maybe he can identify the shooter on the grassy knoll, tell us the location of bigfoot, and prove that the moon landings were faked. Speculating about what a minor government functionary knows is pointless. If you take that attitude about it, we might as well have the entire government testify. Someone might know something, after all. The likelihood that this person has anything of significance to add is pretty slim, so balanced against the potential risk to the whistleblower, it doesn't make much sense to force them to testify.

Hardly a helpful response. We seem to have quite a few folks related to this. Why would we not want more input?
 
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cow451

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That's one thing I keep getting from all this. These diplomats may be sincere and well meaning and it might even be argued they're experts in the field. So what!

Ultimately who has to give account for how things turn out? The President does to THE PEOPLE come at whatever time there's an election. Having experts on the field are great and wonderful but a part of why THE PEOPLE elect a President isn't always because he or she has expertise of knowledge BUT ALSO that they trust that leaders gut feel of making decisions YES that might even go against the status quo.

We ALL KNOW and none can deny it that if a major foreign policy was carried out which flopped, it's the President that pays the price....not whatever low level diplomat. Or do we really think we'd see the likes of CNN if something flopped point and condemn whatever ambassador and talk about poor ole Trump that it shouldn't be attributed to him? Do we think he wouldn't be held solely responsible? Seeing HE IS he gets to call the policy NOT THEM. If they want things their way they need to run for office.
That’s sweet. You left out the part where the buck never stops at Trump’s desk.
 
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rjs330

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So the President does all foreign policy himself? He is personally negotiating with the Chinese over tariffs, he doesn't have diplomats negotiating on a day to day basis on his behalf?

This is what you are ignoring. The issue here is that every country has their own way of doing things and their own traditions and etiquette. It is nearly impossible for the President to be versed in how "business is done" in various countries -- what faux pas he needs to avoid and what etiquette he should use to help facilitate them making a deal.

This is where the diplomatic corp comes in. Yes, the President sets foreign policy -- he tells his diplomats what he wants, how he wants things handled, etc. The diplomats then use their knowledge of the country, of how things work, and the etiquette of the country, in making the President's foreign policy work.

Not having these diplomats hurts the efforts of the US in those countries, particularly when Presidents -- not understanding customs and etiquette -- inadvertently offend people in that country.

I would agree, however we have also seen carreer diplomats try to undermine what the president want to do. That's what they need to understand is that the president sets the policy and it's their job to see it through. If they think it's wrong they should tell him, but if he decides to do it anyway they need to go along or find another job.
 
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rjs330

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Ok? As a whole, US policy seems to be biased in favor of Ukraine over Russia. We're sending them military aid, including missiles, to fight the Russians. That's something that Republicans have been very adamant about.


Sure, with the assistance of his advisors. No individual is capable of knowing every piece of information relevant to every international situation.


I'll point out that the oath of office taken by government employees requires them to protect the country. If they feel that the President's desired foreign policy goals go against the interests of the country, then opposing his policies would be their sworn duty.

They swore to no such thing. Their job is to offer advice based upon the knowledge they have. Then the president sets the policy and it's their job to carry it out using their experience and supposed expertise. Either that or find a different job.
 
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Aryeh Jay

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That’s sweet. You left out the part where the buck never stops at Trump’s desk.

I thought that the President had that embroidered on his gold wallet, “The buck stops here”.
 
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Kenny'sID

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In the end Trump supporters will quietly disappear pretending it wasn't them, as Nixon's once did and life will go on, seeking the next false prophet.

Na, we'll be right here realizing if enough spoiled sports want to get someone bad enough, they will find a way, just as they very very likely could do with any past president.

The spoiled sports have been apparent since the election, and over the yrs, have made clear what they wanted, even if they did keep coming up short, and only embarrassing themselves.

We'll see how this goes for them, and if their expectations are met, I can only ask if anyone here is naive enough to believe that if the Dems liked the president and he did the exact same things as Trump did to cause the investigation, would we ever even hear the slightest word about it, much less have it turn into an impeachment trial?
 
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timothyu

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As you may know I really don't see any purpose in either side, but it is entertaining, one side being so determined to gain and the other absolutely so snarky with their cute mockery it is embarrassing.

It says a lot why the human race fell into disfavour with God.
 
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KCfromNC

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However, if it is not the whistleblower then they now are missing information about other possible participants. What else might this intelligence asset know?
Given the rest of the testimony, they probably know that Donald looked to trade a weapons deal to Ukraine in exchange for a press conference announcing the investigation of a political rival of Donald's. If not from first hand info, at least from watching the news.
 
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wing2000

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He's been quite open about his personal bias in favor of Kiev and against Russia.

...as has everyone who has testified. There is bipartisan support for the aid and sending the Javelin missiles.

It seems your issue is with the US government policy toward Ukraine and Russia.
 
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KCfromNC

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Who knows? Maybe he can identify the shooter on the grassy knoll, tell us the location of bigfoot, and prove that the moon landings were faked. Speculating about what a minor government functionary knows is pointless. If you take that attitude about it, we might as well have the entire government testify. Someone might know something, after all. The likelihood that this person has anything of significance to add is pretty slim, so balanced against the potential risk to the whistleblower, it doesn't make much sense to force them to testify.
Plus, I thought the right wing / RT propaganda was that the whistleblower didn't have any first hand info. With that in mind, it really makes you wonder why GOP leadership is so interested in questioning them instead of the people who were actually on the call. Almost as if they're looking to distract from the people with more valuable info. I wonder why.
 
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KCfromNC

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Ultimately who has to give account for how things turn out? The President does to THE PEOPLE come at whatever time there's an election.

I'm sure the chair of the committee would be happy to have Donald or some of his direct reports testify. For some reason, he seems reluctant to have this happen. Quite curious.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Hardly a helpful response. We seem to have quite a few folks related to this. Why would we not want more input?
Ordinarily I'd agree with you. However, if there's a reasonable chance that this individual's testimony would expose the identity of the whistleblower - who has reasons to fear for his/her safety - then I'd want to be certain that this individual actually had new, relevant information to share. There is nothing that suggests that.

Vindman talked to other people about the call - his brother and the NSC lawyer, at least - and yet I don't hear calls for them to testify. So why are we focusing on this individual?
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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...as has everyone who has testified. There is bipartisan support for the aid and sending the Javelin missiles.

It seems your issue is with the US government policy toward Ukraine and Russia.

That seems to be Vindman's issue - that was my point.
 
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iluvatar5150

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That’s sweet. You left out the part where the buck never stops at Trump’s desk.

I thought that the President had that embroidered on his gold wallet, “The buck stops here”.

lol, I was going to make a similar joke. Though, some of those bucks stopped at Stormy’s wallet.
 
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