Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

How are we saved.

  • saved by works, merit, obedience, performance morally speaking, plus faith

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • saved by works of the law, plus faith

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    29
  • Poll closed .
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createdtoworship

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I am glad you are seeing 2 Thessalonians 2 as referring to local believers.



But this is not a commentary I copied from another. They are my own words based on what I see what the Bible says.



Yet, a moment ago you said, "I stress not using commentaries in general as they are man's words. I don't typically honor commentaries."

It sounds like you are contradicting yourself, my friend. Either you are for using them or you are not for using them. You read 8 commentaries and then you turn around and tell others not to use them. So you can use them, but others cannot? Doesn't sound fair. Again, in order to properly understand just try reading the text over and over in several different translations and it will become clear that Paul is referring to Sanctification as in one's actions. Look at the last two verses in the chapter. It mentions good works and it does not refer to some kind of Positional Sanctification (Where you can sin and still be saved).

"Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given useverlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work." (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).



While the word "sanctified" can be used to refer to the Justification Process sometimes, Got Questions is wrong on their view of Soteriology. They believe that a person can go prodigal or backslide and still be saved while doing so.

Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org

This supports their unbiblical view on Positional Sanctification (in that a person can sin and still be saved). But is that what Jesus taught? Jesus said just looking upon a woman in lust is enough to cast a person's body entirely into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

In fact, when Jesus told us about the "Parable of the Prodigal Son," we learn that when the son came home to the father and sought forgiveness with him over living a riotous life in sin, the father said two times that his son was "dead" and he is "alive again" (See Luke 15:24, and Luke 15:32). This is speaking in spiritual terms. The son was "dead spiritually" while living a prodigal life of sin, and he was "alive again spiritually" when he came back home to his father and sought forgiveness with him. The father said twice that his son was "lost" and he is now "found." When Christians refer to the lost in the Bible, they are referring to unsaved people. In fact, the son was sleeping around with harlots (Luke 15:30). This is why he was dead spiritually and he needed to be made "alive AGAIN" spiritually.

James 5:19-20 also teaches that you can die spiritually by backsliding into sin, and you can come back to rededicating your life to Christ by seeking his forgiveness with Him and in living for Him. A faithful brother can lead a backslidden brother back to the faith (as long as they did not deny Jesus) to seeking forgiveness with the Lord (Whereby the faithful brother should know that they are helping to save the soul of the backslidden brother from “death,” and they are helping to cover a multitude of their sins by pointing them to Jesus in seeking His forgiveness).

1 Timothy 5:6 says,

"But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." (1 Timothy 5:6).

The believing widows who live in pleasure are dead spiritually while they live physically. This is what happened to the prodigal son when he was living in the pleasure of his sin. He was dead spiritually while he lived physically (during his prodigious sinful time).

So sin can still separate us from God.

In other words, I would rather stick with what Jesus and His followers say instead of what “Got Questions” says. My soul and the souls of others is too important to justify sin (as many like to teach these days).
I am not sure that positional sanctification is what I agree with, I simply know that some aspects of sanctification start at salvation, and because of that, can be confused with the salvation process.

Here is a section from a systematic theology on sanctification, by the way this is the most respected systematic theology in evangelicalism. I also have chafers systematic theology if you prefer, I know it's not the word of God however i was just using it to provide some more verses to spark our conversation, if you wish we can only adress the verses instead. Anyway, here is the section for you to check out....it's a very good work to purchase for your library if you haven't yet...Again I don't really agree with any one theologian, I have over fifteen thousand dollars in books, my view is probably in the one percent of that. Most are reformed, and the next group is dispensational, but rarely will you have a dispensational, Lordship advocate, that believes in apostacy, while that apostacy is not regarding sin itself. It's a very rare recipe I am afraid, but it's the only one that I think takes into consideration all of scripture.

Anyway here is a section on why some aspects of sanctification start at regeneration and can be confused a requirement FOR REGENERATION:

"B. Three Stages of Sanctification

1. Sanctification Has a Definite Beginning at Regeneration. A definite moral change occurs in our lives at the point of regeneration, for Paul talks about the “washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5). Once we have been born again we cannot continue to sin as a habit or a pattern of life (1 John 3:9), because the power of new spiritual life within us keeps us from yielding to a life of sin.
This initial moral change is the first stage in sanctification. In this sense, there is some overlap between regeneration and sanctification, for this moral change is actually a part of regeneration. But when we view it from the standpoint of moral change within us, we can also see it as the first stage in sanctification. Paul looks back on a completed event when he says to the Corinthians, “But you were washed, you were sanctified you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:11). Similarly, in Acts 20:32 Paul can refer to Christians as “all those who are sanctified.”2
This initial step in sanctification involves a definite break from the ruling power and love of sin, so that the believer is no longer ruled or dominated by sin and no longer loves to sin. Paul says, “So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus … For sin will have no dominion over you” (Rom. 6:11, 14). Paul says that Christians have been “set free from sin” (Rom. 6:18). In this context, to be dead to sin or to be set free from sin involves the power to overcome acts or patterns of sinful behavior in one’s life. Paul tells the Romans not to let sin “reign in your mortal bodies,” and he also says, “Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God” (Rom. 6:12–13). To be dead to the ruling power of sin means that we as Christians, by virtue of the power of the Holy Spirit and the resurrection life of Christ working within us, have power to overcome the temptations and enticements of sin. Sin will no longer be our master, as once it was before we became Christians.
In practical terms, this means that we must affirm two things to be true. On the one hand, we will never be able to say, “I am completely free from sin,” because our sanctification will never be completed (see below). But on the other hand, a Christian should never say (for example), “This sin has defeated me. I give up. I have had a bad temper for thirty-seven years, and I will have one until the day I die, and people are just going to have to put up with me the way I am!” To say this is to say that sin has gained dominion. It is to allow sin to reign in our bodies. It is to admit defeat. It is to deny the truth of Scripture, which tells us, “You also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 6:11). It is to deny the truth of Scripture that tells us that “sin will have no dominion over you” (Rom. 6:14).
This initial break with sin, then, involves a reorientation of our desires so that we no longer have a dominant love for sin in our lives. Paul knows that his readers were formerly slaves to sin (as all unbelievers are), but he says that they are enslaved no longer. “You who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness” (Rom. 6:17–18). This change of one’s primary love and primary desires occurs at the beginning of sanctification.3"


Grudem, W. A. (2004). Systematic theology: an introduction to biblical doctrine (pp. 747–748). Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House.
 
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JLB777

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be careful not to call someone deceitful, or a liar, or other flames. It is important to keep our head in the game. Even with people who disagree with us. If a non believer came in here, and they see us name calling and flaming one another, what does that say?


Brother, I’m not “flaming” anyone.


I’m calling out someone who s blatantly deceiving people God’s people in this Forum.


It’s called rebuking.


For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. Titus 2:11-15


Do you believe the lost need salvation?



I mean how long do you want to put up with someone teaching false deceitful things to your brothers and sisters in Christ?


JLB
 
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createdtoworship

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I mean how long do you want to put up with someone teaching false deceitful things to your brothers and sisters in Christ?


JLB

I don't really agree with any single theologian out there. So we are all different. When it comes to salvation we should talk about it politely. It's important not to lose your cool. If you can't deal with people of opposing perspectives, and repeating yourself all the time the debate is not a good fit.
 
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FreeGrace2

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So this is three times you have dodged a simple question.
The dodger here is clearly yourself. I asked for your definition of the word 'lost' in any specific verse, and you repeatedly refuse to comply.

Do the lost need salvation?
So you can take your questions elsewhere. You just don't want to play fair.

I think everyone see’s just how deceitful you are Freegrace.
The deceit is on the one who refuses to clarify their own questions.

What are you trying to hide?

I want clarification, and you give obfuscation.

You are an obfuscater.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I don't agree entirely with free grace, nor with you guys, I am in the middle.
I fully agree with your advise for JLB. However, I am curious as to how you can be "in the middle" of this debate.

How can the Bible be so unclear as to leave anyone in that position?

In fact, the debate ends with Jesus' words in John 10:28. It is as clear as can be.

Those given eternal life by Jesus (John 10:28a) which is WHEN one believes (John 5:24, 6:47), shall never perish.

Period.

And it drives Arminians crazy.

ps: I am definitely not a Calvinist.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Brother, I’m not “flaming” anyone.
Just your middle name.

I’m calling out someone who s blatantly deceiving people God’s people in this Forum.
By repeatedly ignoring my request for clarification, you are an obfuscater.

It’s called rebuking.
No, that comes from Scripture, which you have none to defend yourself. Unlike myself, with John 10:28, which is the clearest verse (but certainly not the only one) that states eternal security.

Do you believe the lost need salvation?
I'm willing to bet that gradyll realizes that the word 'lost' has meaning only within its context, and that he doesn't believe, as you do, that it has only one meaning.

I mean how long do you want to put up with someone teaching false deceitful things to your brothers and sisters in Christ?
That's it. Just keep shovelling the mud and flames. Which bothers me not a bit.

I've refuted your ideas from Scripture repeatedly and you just ignore them.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I don't really agree with any single theologian out there. So we are all different. When it comes to salvation we should talk about it politely. It's important not to lose your cool. If you can't deal with people of opposing perspectives, and repeating yourself all the time the debate is not a good fit.
Wise words indeed! :oldthumbsup:
 
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JLB777

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I don't really agree with any single theologian out there.

I don’t either.

I go to the scriptures.


Not just one scripture but the whole counsel of God.



How hard could it possibly be to agree that the lost need salvation?


If we can’t agree on that, then what can we agree on?




JLB
 
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JLB777

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Just your middle name.


By repeatedly ignoring my request for clarification, you are an obfuscater.


No, that comes from Scripture, which you have none to defend yourself. Unlike myself, with John 10:28, which is the clearest verse (but certainly not the only one) that states eternal security.


I'm willing to bet that gradyll realizes that the word 'lost' has meaning only within its context, and that he doesn't believe, as you do, that it has only one meaning.


That's it. Just keep shovelling the mud and flames. Which bothers me not a bit.

I've refuted your ideas from Scripture repeatedly and you just ignore them.


You can’t seem to answer a simple question.


Why?


Do the lost need salvation?


Yes of course they do.


No one who is honest would disagree.



So, let’s see if you will answer.



Do the lost need salvation?






JLB
 
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I am not sure that positional sanctification is what I agree with, I simply know that some aspects of sanctification start at salvation, and because of that, can be confused with the salvation process.

Here is a section from a systematic theology on sanctification, by the way this is the most respected systematic theology in evangelicalism. I also have chafers systematic theology if you prefer, I know it's not the word of God however i was just using it to provide some more verses to spark our conversation, if you wish we can only adress the verses instead. Anyway, here is the section for you to check out....it's a very good work to purchase for your library if you haven't yet...Again I don't really agree with any one theologian, I have over fifteen thousand dollars in books, my view is probably in the one percent of that. Most are reformed, and the next group is dispensational, but rarely will you have a dispensational, Lordship advocate, that believes in apostacy, while that apostacy is not regarding sin itself. It's a very rare recipe I am afraid, but it's the only one that I think takes into consideration all of scripture.

Grace, peace, and love to you from the Lord Jesus Christ.
I hope your day is going well.
Anyways, to get down to business:

Well, on certain rare occasions when I would get into a bind on understanding something in the Bible: I would pray, and I would then read a ton of Christian articles (This would not be official Bible commentaries generally). For what other believers say can be helpful at times, but I also test the Scriptures to see if what they say is true. I believe that we should pray, compare Scripture with Scripture (by looking at the context, and cross references), etc. I believe most misunderstandings happen, when we do not read the context. Whenever I try to talk about a verse or passage, I generally try to re-read the chapter again before I reply back with the person and I sometimes will pray. By this method, God has actually helped me to re-evaluate what I was going to say and in some cases it has helped me to change my beliefs on a particular topic. I would just read the text openly without any particular bias (Except with the bias that GOD is always good and morally upright, i.e. Holy).

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

"That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."
(1 Corinthians 2:5).​

Our faith is not in what Theologians say, but it is in what God's Word says (of which I am sure you would agree).

No offense, and please do not take what I say in the wrong way, I say this with love: But if you were to look at the investment you made in all those books, you still were not able to give me a normal explanation on 2 Thessalonians 2 right away, my friend. You kept referring to what others said until you eventually read it yourself and came to the conclusion that Paul was talking to local believers. But I am glad. I am so glad that you read it for yourself eventually. So thank you for doing that. It lets me know that you are for reading what God's Word plainly says to a certain degree.

Anyways, the problem is that you should have never had this wrong conclusion to begin with, friend. I believe your investment should have been in God's Word alone with God by way of prayer (But that is just my personal opinion from my walk with the Lord). I am also not looking to criticize only here, either. I have made my fair share of mistakes as a believer, as well. But after my fight for the Lord Jesus Christ, one thing I always fought for was the truth in what His Word plainly said. I just read and believe the Bible. I accept all of what God's Word says even if I may not like it.

For regardless of what you may believe, or think now, I got the impression before that you did not accept all of what God's Word says by the Google Document you provided on Lordship Salvation. The commentator in that Google document appeared to mock the idea of what Scripture was telling them to do. Yet, a person cannot mock God's Word by going against what it is telling them to do. All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness, my friend (2 Timothy 3:16-17). I sure hope that I merely misunderstood you and you were not actually saying that you cannot apply those verses to your life.

You said:
"B. Three Stages of Sanctification

1. Sanctification Has a Definite Beginning at Regeneration. A definite moral change occurs in our lives at the point of regeneration, for Paul talks about the “washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5).

Based on the light of Scripture: I believe the Justification Process (Which is believing in Christ's death, burial and resurrection on our behalf for salvation, accepting Jesus as our Savior, and seeking forgiveness of our sins with Christ by way of prayer) is two fold involving one being "sanctified," "cleansed," or "washed."

#1. A person is forgiven of all their PAST sins when they ask the Lord Jesus Christ to forgive them of their past life of sin. They are cleansed, sanctified, washed by Christ's sacrifice of their PAST sins by believing in the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and by seeking forgiveness with Him and receiving the Lord into their heart and life. For all the angels of God celebrate in Heaven over one sinner that repents (i.e. seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus). The Provisional Atonement of the sacrifice of Christ is applied! By this, believers are Sanctified! (Hebrews 10:10).

#2. After a person takes this 1st step (or action) towards God, they are given a new heart, with new desires, and they are given the Holy Spirit. They will be a new creation in Christ Jesus. But this does not mean their free will is no longer in existence anymore because they can still sin, and or choose to walk away from God. We are sanctified in the regeneration process or in being born again spiritually (Which is a one time event after a person accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior).​

In regards to being "sanctified" in Justification: I believe the Justification Process is only Positional in being in His Kingdom based on meeting God's conditions within His plan of salvation. A person is only a child of Christ, based on coming to Jesus, and if they sin again, they can die spiritually, unless they confess and forsake such sins (Note: This would be grievous or serious sins that the Bible clearly condemns with words like "having their part in the Lake of Fire," or "not inheriting the Kingdom of God," etc.). Those who refuse to truly seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus, and or those who justify sin in some way, they will later be cast out as being a child of Christ's Kingdom at the Judgment before Christ gives back the kingdom to God. For we learn in Matthew 13:41-42 that Jesus will send forth his angels and they will gather out of His Kingdom all who offend (sin or make others to sin), and who work iniquity (lawlessness), and they will cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Meaning, angels of Christ will throw believers who sin into the Lake of Fire at the Judgment before Christ gives the Kingdom back to God.

This is why Progressive Sanctification in the 2nd work of God done in our lives is so important, and why it is essential to our salvation. We are "sanctified" both in the Justification Process, and in the Sanctification Process. For Salvation is an Ongoing Process of cooperating with the Lord. While our Initial Salvation is important, salvation is not exclusively a one time event in the past alone.

In any event, I will reply to the rest of what you wrote a little later (Lord willing).
I also do not want to make my post overly long so as to discourage you and or anyone else from reading it, too.

I am wishing you all manner of good things to you in Christ Jesus (even if we do not agree on the topic of Soteriology).

May you blessed in the Lord this fine day.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ J.


Side Note:

I believe the Justification Process also continues after we initially accept the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior. Thus, being "sanctified," "washed," "cleansed" is a continual process so that the believer can overcome grievous sins or serious sin that the Bible clearly condemns. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). But confessing sin is in view of forsaking sin with the intent of putting it away (See 1 John 1:7, 1 John 2:3-4, and Proverbs 28:13).
 
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JLB777

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I asked for your definition of the word 'lost' in any specific verse, and you repeatedly refuse to comply.

I have quoted Luke 15:4-7 about a hundred times and all you do is deny what Jesus said.

Lost = Sinner in need of repentance; a person separated from Christ.


What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


  • Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
  • I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

A sinner by definition is a person separated from Christ.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26



again


It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ”
Luke 15:32




JLB
 
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JLB777

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I'm willing to bet that gradyll realizes that the word 'lost' has meaning only within its context, and that he doesn't believe, as you do, that it has only one meaning.


Go ahead and give us your “meaning” of the word lost in the context of Luke 15:4-7 and Luke 15:32


It means Separated from God.



JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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I don’t either.

I go to the scriptures.
Your comments on these threads demonstrate otherwise.

For example, where in Scripture do you learn that recipients of eternal life CAN perish?

Not just one scripture but the whole counsel of God.
Right. You outright reject the single BEST statement of eternal security in favor of twisting much less clear verses.

How hard could it possibly be to agree that the lost need salvation?
When you mean "unsaved" in this particular question, then YES, I agree.

If we can’t agree on that, then what can we agree on?
Believing that recipients of eternal life CAN perish, EVEN THOUGH Jesus said recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH, means that I cannot agree with you on very much.
 
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FreeGrace2

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You can’t seem to answer a simple question.
I said this:
"By repeatedly ignoring my request for clarification, you are an obfuscater."

because you repeatedly refuse to clarify your words.

I wish I knew why you were so resistant to answering and clarifying.

Do the lost need salvation?
When the word 'lost' means 'unsaved', of course they do.

Do the lost need salvation?
Only when 'lost' means 'unsaved'.

However, you aren't even aware that the word 'lost' has other meanings in other verses.

No discernment.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"I asked for your definition of the word 'lost' in any specific verse, and you repeatedly refuse to comply."
I have quoted Luke 15:4-7 about a hundred times and all you do is deny what Jesus said.
Your charge is empty. I DARE you to support your stupid claim that I have "denied what Jesus said".

You're the one who believes recipients of eternal life CAN perish, even though Jesus said those He gives eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So don't lecture me on denying what Jesus said. You do it all the time.

But, at least you now specify a verse. So, let's look at it.

Luke 15:4-7
4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?
5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders
6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’
7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

In v.4, Jesus sets up the scenario of a person (one of YOU) who "has 100 sheep". So, it is patently OBVIOUS that this person OWNS 100 sheep. They are his already.

If you want to conflate this passage with John 10, then all 100 of these sheep are His. Therefore, they are already saved. That would mean that the passage is about a saved person who wanders away from the Shepherd and needs to be RESTORED to the flock.

So, right away we can reject the notion that this passage isn't about an unsaved person. Immediately.

So, in this context, 'lost' means out of fellowship. Needs restoration of fellowship with the Shepherd and flock.

Lost = Sinner in need of repentance; a person separated from Christ.
Another man made opinion, I see. All humans are sinners. All humans are in need of repentance. Believing sinners are sealed IN HIM and cannot be separated from Him.

What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7
What was lost was fellowship, not relationship. v.4 has established that the "lost sheep" was part of that shepherd's flock. It was one of HIS SHEEP.

Same wording in John 10 to indicate a saved person.

A sinner by definition is a person separated from Christ.
Well, that may be your opinion about the definition, but can you cite any actual scholarly source for your opinion?

Why don't you next cite the prodigal son parable? When a son insults his father and leaves, that doesn't mean he becomes unsaved. We know that because throughout the parable, Jesus describes him as a son, and his father as his father.

So, Jesus emphasizes the permanent relationship between father and son.

Can JLB777 show ANY evidence that a son can become an UN-son from his father. Of course he can't. Just like he can't defend any of his own opinions.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Go ahead and give us your “meaning” of the word lost in the context of Luke 15:4-7 and Luke 15:32
I already did in my previous post.

But go ahead and try to prove your opinionated "definition" of the word "lost". For all to see.

It means Separated from God.
Yea, yea, yea. Now, prove it.

Just claiming something is no proof at all. It's just kinda tiring.

Regarding Luke 15:32, if you can prove from human life that a father or son can UN-do the physical relationship between them, I'll believe the same will be true in the spiritual life.

My understanding from Scripture is that once there is relationship between man and God, through faith in Jesus Christ, that man becomes a child of God.

John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,

If you want to spiritualize the prodigal son, fine with me. But you're going to have to prove that in the physical world, a child and parent can UN-do their genetic relationship.

Hint: that would have to include changing either one's DNA to do that.

So, in the spiritual world, the believer would have to lose the indwelling Holy Spirit.

You know, the Seal, given as a DEPOSIT, GUARANTEEING the believer's inheritance until the day of REDEMPTION.

That Seal.

You will need way more than "good luck" to do that.
 
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Once we have been born again we cannot continue to sin as a habit or a pattern of life (1 John 3:9), because the power of new spiritual life within us keeps us from yielding to a life of sin.

Yet, if my memory serves me correctly, I believe you said before that a believer can be hardened by sin and as a result they can deny Jesus (i.e. apostatize). You also said before that a believer can indulge in sin and still be saved while doing so.

While I agree with you that sin can lead to apostasy in rejecting Christ (Which is a loss of salvation), I disagree with you that you on the point that a believer can commit a grievous sin (like: lying, lusting, and hating, etc.) and still be saved; For doing such things means we are abiding in spiritual death (Matthew 5:28-30) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Hebrews 12:14) (Revelation 21:8), unless we confess our sins to Jesus (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1), and we forsake them (1 John 1:7, 1 John 2:3, Proverbs 28:13).

As for 1 John 3:9:

The KJV is my final word of authority. So while I may use them to help update the 1600's English at times, they are not my final word of authority. Why? Well, 1 John 3:9 is one of many examples. I believe the Modern Translations corrupted 1 John 3:6, and 1 John 3:9 by adding the words "practices sin." How so?

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes on act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes on act of adultery to be an adulterer.​

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."​

You said:
This initial moral change is the first stage in sanctification. In this sense, there is some overlap between regeneration and sanctification, for this moral change is actually a part of regeneration. But when we view it from the standpoint of moral change within us, we can also see it as the first stage in sanctification. Paul looks back on a completed event when he says to the Corinthians, “But you were washed, you were sanctified you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:11). Similarly, in Acts 20:32 Paul can refer to Christians as “all those who are sanctified.”2

I have no argument with what you stated in what I specifically quoted here. Remember, I believe we are saved by BOTH the Justification process and the Sanctification process. I see what you have mentioned here as the Justification Process (Which then leads to the Sanctification Process - if a believer still wants to cooperate with God's plan of salvation for their life).

As for your mention of 1 Corinthians 6:11:

It needs to be read in balance with 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that says,

9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

When you read Acts of the Apostles 20:32, we have to read it in light of Acts of the Apostles 3:23 that says,

"And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

We see a similar saying in Matthew 7:26-27. For the person who does not do what Jesus says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. So we have to obey Jesus. Obeying Jesus (in relation to living holy) is clearly progressive Sanctification and not Sanctifying work during Justification.

1 Thessalonians 4:4 says,

"That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;"
 
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This initial step in sanctification involves a definite break from the ruling power and love of sin, so that the believer is no longer ruled or dominated by sin and no longer loves to sin. Paul says, “So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus … For sin will have no dominion over you” (Rom. 6:11, 14). Paul says that Christians have been “set free from sin” (Rom. 6:18). In this context, to be dead to sin or to be set free from sin involves the power to overcome acts or patterns of sinful behavior in one’s life. Paul tells the Romans not to let sin “reign in your mortal bodies,” and he also says, “Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God” (Rom. 6:12–13). To be dead to the ruling power of sin means that we as Christians, by virtue of the power of the Holy Spirit and the resurrection life of Christ working within us, have power to overcome the temptations and enticements of sin. Sin will no longer be our master, as once it was before we became Christians.
In practical terms, this means that we must affirm two things to be true. On the one hand, we will never be able to say, “I am completely free from sin,” because our sanctification will never be completed (see below). But on the other hand, a Christian should never say (for example), “This sin has defeated me. I give up. I have had a bad temper for thirty-seven years, and I will have one until the day I die, and people are just going to have to put up with me the way I am!” To say this is to say that sin has gained dominion. It is to allow sin to reign in our bodies. It is to admit defeat. It is to deny the truth of Scripture, which tells us, “You also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 6:11). It is to deny the truth of Scripture that tells us that “sin will have no dominion over you” (Rom. 6:14).
This initial break with sin, then, involves a reorientation of our desires so that we no longer have a dominant love for sin in our lives. Paul knows that his readers were formerly slaves to sin (as all unbelievers are), but he says that they are enslaved no longer. “You who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness” (Rom. 6:17–18). This change of one’s primary love and primary desires occurs at the beginning of sanctification.3"

Grudem, W. A. (2004). Systematic theology: an introduction to biblical doctrine (pp. 747–748). Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House.

First, while we do have a new heart with new desires, the Bible tells also us that we to continue in the faith, continue in God's grace, continue in His goodness (otherwise we can be cut off). So the born again regenerated believer is not guaranteed that they will continue in the faith, or God's grace, etc. It is why they are told to do such things that they need to endure to the end to be saved (i.e. to be saved in Glorification).

Second, Paul does make it clear that we can overcome grievous sin in the Scriptures. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says, Let us cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. In your view, there is no cleansing ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit. In your view, there is no real fear of God entirely because a person can sin and still be saved (on some level). They don't have to worry about the words of Jesus that warns how that looking upon a woman in lust can cause one's entire body to be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). In your view of Soteriology, there is no such thing as "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12). You said in a previous post that we can indulge in sin and still be saved. You even implied that believers cannot overcome certain sins like lying and or lusting after women with their eyes by your accusations towards me. But my life is not the standard. God's Word is the standard. I am going to be held account to God's Word just as much as you will be (See John 12:48). Nobody is above what God's Word says. We have to accept what His Word says whether we like it or not.
 
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JLB777

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Your comments on these threads demonstrate otherwise.

For example, where in Scripture do you learn that recipients of eternal life CAN perish?


Right. You outright reject the single BEST statement of eternal security in favor of twisting much less clear verses.


When you mean "unsaved" in this particular question, then YES, I agree.


That’s right.

His sheep who become lost, need salvation by repentance.


It’s undeniable.



JLB
 
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His sheep who wander away from Him and become lost, need to be reconciled back to God.

The need salvation.




Lost = Sinner in need of repentance; a person separated from Christ.


What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


  • Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
  • I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

A sinner by definition is a person separated from Christ.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26



again


It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ”
Luke 15:32




JLB
 
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