Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

How are we saved.

  • saved by works, merit, obedience, performance morally speaking, plus faith

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • saved by works of the law, plus faith

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    29
  • Poll closed .
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createdtoworship

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Grace, peace, and love to you from the Lord Jesus Christ.
I hope your day is going well.
Anyways, to get down to business:

Well, on certain rare occasions when I would get into a bind on understanding something in the Bible: I would pray, and I would then read a ton of Christian articles (This would not be official Bible commentaries generally). For what other believers say can be helpful at times, but I also test the Scriptures to see if what they say is true. I believe that we should pray, compare Scripture with Scripture (by looking at the context, and cross references), etc. I believe most misunderstandings happen, when we do not read the context. Whenever I try to talk about a verse or passage, I generally try to re-read the chapter again before I reply back with the person and I sometimes will pray. By this method, God has actually helped me to re-evaluate what I was going to say and in some cases it has helped me to change my beliefs on a particular topic. I would just read the text openly without any particular bias (Except with the bias that GOD is always good and morally upright, i.e. Holy).

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

"That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."
(1 Corinthians 2:5).​

Our faith is not in what Theologians say, but it is in what God's Word says (of which I am sure you would agree).

No offense, and please do not take what I say in the wrong way, I say this with love: But if you were to look at the investment you made in all those books, you still were not able to give me a normal explanation on 2 Thessalonians 2 right away, my friend. You kept referring to what others said until you eventually read it yourself and came to the conclusion that Paul was talking to local believers. But I am glad. I am so glad that you read it for yourself eventually. So thank you for doing that. It lets me know that you are for reading what God's Word plainly says to a certain degree.

Anyways, the problem is that you should have never had this wrong conclusion to begin with, friend. I believe your investment should have been in God's Word alone with God by way of prayer (But that is just my personal opinion from my walk with the Lord). I am also not looking to criticize only here, either. I have made my fair share of mistakes as a believer, as well. But after my fight for the Lord Jesus Christ, one thing I always fought for was the truth in what His Word plainly said. I just read and believe the Bible. I accept all of what God's Word says even if I may not like it.

For regardless of what you may believe, or think now, I got the impression before that you did not accept all of what God's Word says by the Google Document you provided on Lordship Salvation. The commentator in that Google document appeared to mock the idea of what Scripture was telling them to do. Yet, a person cannot mock God's Word by going against what it is telling them to do. All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness, my friend (2 Timothy 3:16-17). I sure hope that I merely misunderstood you and you were not actually saying that you cannot apply those verses to your life.



Based on the light of Scripture: I believe the Justification Process (Which is believing in Christ's death, burial and resurrection on our behalf for salvation, accepting Jesus as our Savior, and seeking forgiveness of our sins with Christ by way of prayer) is two fold involving one being "sanctified," "cleansed," or "washed."

#1. A person is forgiven of all their PAST sins when they ask the Lord Jesus Christ to forgive them of their past life of sin. They are cleansed, sanctified, washed by Christ's sacrifice of their PAST sins by believing in the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and by seeking forgiveness with Him and receiving the Lord into their heart and life. For all the angels of God celebrate in Heaven over one sinner that repents (i.e. seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus). The Provisional Atonement of the sacrifice of Christ is applied! By this, believers are Sanctified! (Hebrews 10:10).

#2. After a person takes this 1st step (or action) towards God, they are given a new heart, with new desires, and they are given the Holy Spirit. They will be a new creation in Christ Jesus. But this does not mean their free will is no longer in existence anymore because they can still sin, and or choose to walk away from God. We are sanctified in the regeneration process or in being born again spiritually (Which is a one time event after a person accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior).​

In regards to being "sanctified" in Justification: I believe the Justification Process is only Positional in being in His Kingdom based on meeting God's conditions within His plan of salvation. A person is only a child of Christ, based on coming to Jesus, and if they sin again, they can die spiritually, unless they confess and forsake such sins (Note: This would be grievous or serious sins that the Bible clearly condemns with words like "having their part in the Lake of Fire," or "not inheriting the Kingdom of God," etc.). Those who refuse to truly seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus, and or those who justify sin in some way, they will later be cast out as being a child of Christ's Kingdom at the Judgment before Christ gives back the kingdom to God. For we learn in Matthew 13:41-42 that Jesus will send forth his angels and they will gather out of His Kingdom all who offend (sin or make others to sin), and who work iniquity (lawlessness), and they will cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Meaning, angels of Christ will throw believers who sin into the Lake of Fire at the Judgment before Christ gives the Kingdom back to God.

This is why Progressive Sanctification in the 2nd work of God done in our lives is so important, and why it is essential to our salvation. We are "sanctified" both in the Justification Process, and in the Sanctification Process. For Salvation is an Ongoing Process of cooperating with the Lord. While our Initial Salvation is important, salvation is not exclusively a one time event in the past alone.

In any event, I will reply to the rest of what you wrote a little later (Lord willing).
I also do not want to make my post overly long so as to discourage you and or anyone else from reading it, too.

I am wishing you all manner of good things to you in Christ Jesus (even if we do not agree on the topic of Soteriology).

May you blessed in the Lord this fine day.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ J.


Side Note:

I believe the Justification Process also continues after we initially accept the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior. Thus, being "sanctified," "washed," "cleansed" is a continual process so that the believer can overcome grievous sins or serious sin that the Bible clearly condemns. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). But confessing sin is in view of forsaking sin with the intent of putting it away (See 1 John 1:7, 1 John 2:3-4, and Proverbs 28:13).
yes sir I didn't read the passage fully I agree, I am very busy and this is why I don't typically debate. But saying we are saved by works, annoys me to no end. It's not our works we are saved by. I hope that talking about justification and sanctification will trigger something in you. Since you said you like to read the whole chapter before speaking on a verse, try reading romans in one sitting, use various translations, you will have problems in that book. That was the book that convinced martin luther to start protestantism. If you have a particular verse that that section out of that systematic theology spoke to you, go ahead and quote it. I have many more books I can quote. But yes God does require obedience, but it's not works it's repentance. Otherwise works salvation would contradict romans on about half a dozen occasions. So this debate is relatively easy even without quoting commentaries. But I can quote commentaries as well. It's just that they are not the word of God. And by the way, most of the books I have our church created a free program that basically takes text of ebooks and converts it to a format that it can give away for free. I have probably only spent maybe three thousand at the very most for all of my books digital and print. But I have about fifteen thousand dollars worth in digital. About ten thousand are from my churches software to research for those in ministry, I think I posted it in this thread already, but I can give you the link again. And the other two or three thousand I have are from free online books that I have converted from pdf to word, and I have probably at most fifty of those. Anyway, knowledge puffs up. So I don't want people to be well verses in theology, just the Bible. And for you, I would start in romans.
 
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FreeGrace2

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That’s right.

His sheep who become lost, need salvation by repentance.

It’s undeniable.
This is confused. Since they are already "HIS SHEEP", they can't be unsaved. Therefore, the word 'lost' cannot mean unsaved.

But I recall that you don't believe that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

And Jesus said that His sheep are given eternal life and shall never perish.

So, whenever one of HIS SHEEP get lost, they need to be returned to the flock, yes.

But that in no way TRUMPS what Jesus said about His sheep in John 10:28.

You just can't wriggle out of what Jesus said so very plainly.

Those who are Jesus' sheep have been given eternal life. The result is that they shall never perish.

Period.
 
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FreeGrace2

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His sheep who wander away from Him and become lost, need to be reconciled back to God.
Absolutely!! Now you're getting somewhere!! :oldthumbsup:

The need salvation.
Oh, drat. You're right back to no where again. :doh:

A sinner by definition is a person separated from Christ.
No. A sinner by definition is a human being.

Rom 3:9 - What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
 
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JLB777

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This is confused. Since they are already "HIS SHEEP", they can't be unsaved. Therefore, the word 'lost' cannot mean unsaved.

But I recall that you don't believe that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

And Jesus said that His sheep are given eternal life and shall never perish.

So, whenever one of HIS SHEEP get lost, they need to be returned to the flock, yes.

But that in no way TRUMPS what Jesus said about His sheep in John 10:28.

You just can't wriggle out of what Jesus said so very plainly.

Those who are Jesus' sheep have been given eternal life. The result is that they shall never perish.

Period.


Your indoctrination won’t let you see the truth.

You have to “make up” some biblical scenario because your mind is blinded by a false doctrine.


Even though Jesus Himself is speaking and teaching, saying one His sheep became lost, you just can’t grasp this reality, and you will argue from now on, that lost just can’t mean lost.

So you try and “redefine” the word lost to mean something other than what it so plainly means.


You have what the Bible calls a “Stronghold”, and it exalts itself against the knowledge of God.


Lost means separated from Christ; a sinner in need of repentance.

You do understand what sinner means, don’t you?



JLB
 
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JLB777

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Absolutely!! Now you're getting somewhere!! :oldthumbsup:

I have stated this about a hundred times.

People who are separated from Christ are called sinners, and must be reconciled back to Him, in which they are (back) “in Christ”.



JLB
 
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yes sir I didn't read the passage fully I agree, I am very busy and this is why I don't typically debate.

You mean, the chapter. The whole chapter is dealing with Paul talking to the local believers at Thessalonica. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is also not dealing with a form of Positional Sanctification, either. Verse 12 gives us a contrast or parallel. It says:

full


2 Thessalonians 2:13 says GOD has chosen you to salvation through:

full
Sanctification of the Spirit.

full
Belief of the truth.

The verse actually mentions things in reverse order. In the proper order, we are saved first by a "Belief of the Truth" (Justification), and by the "Sanctification of the Spirit" (Sanctification, i.e. Holy Living).

Anyways, verse 12 gives us a contrast or polar opposite of verse 13.

Verse 12 - Believe not the Truth. vs. Verse 13 - Belief of the Truth.
Verse 12 - Pleasure in unrighteousness vs. Verse 13 Sanctification of the Spirit.

Also,

full


Verse 17 (2 Thessalonians 2:17) is the context of verse 13 in 2 Thessalonians 2.
Verse 17 mentions good works being the aftermath or result of God's grace (verse 16).
This is the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that talks about the Sanctification of the Spirit.
We have TWO verses in context supporting that "Sanctification of the Spirit" is in reference to living holy or doing good works. Verse 12 is an opposite contrast, and verses 16-17 gives us a grace, and then works pattern again.

You said:
But saying we are saved by works, annoys me to no end. It's not our works we are saved by.

No. Again. I don't believe we are saved solely by works (i.e. Works Alone Salvationism). One more time. We are saved by...

full


You said:
I hope that talking about justification and sanctification will trigger something in you.

Actually, Justification and Sanctification is what I am talking about this whole time. No offense, but you are just talking about "Justification" for salvation, plus a version of repentance that does not exist in the Bible. I believe in Justification + Sanctification for salvation. I believe the Bible teaches that both are needed for salvation. I have already proven it multiple times with Scripture in this very thread.

You said:
Since you said you like to read the whole chapter before speaking on a verse, try reading romans in one sitting, use various translations, you will have problems in that book.

Okay. Please do not assume that I have not read the book of Romans. Remember, I had to actually show you what 2nd Thessalonians 2 plainly said and you were not really reading it. I have read and studied the letters by Paul many times over a good number of years. I have studied Paul's words of when he spoke negatively using the word "law" and the word "works" many times.

#1. Paul is referring to the Old Law (the 613 laws within the Law of Moses).
#2. Paul is referring to those who are trying to be saved by "Law Alone Salvationism" (without God's grace).
#3. Circumcision Salvationism was one of the false beliefs that was being spread during this time, and we can see Paul's own words allude to this heresy in Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, etc. (Note: This heresy was more clearly defined at the Jerusalem council in Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

In other words, whenever the next time you read Paul, and he talks about "works" or the "law," try reading it as saying, "works alone" or "law alone" (i.e. by obeying the whole of the Old Law, i.e. the 613 laws within the Law of Moses without God's grace). I guarantee you that if you were to follow this rule the next time you read Paul, things will start to make more sense in defending the truth on the necessity of holiness (as taught in the Scriptures). For when Paul speaks negatively when using the words "law" and "works": Paul is referring to the Justification Process, and NOT the Sanctification Process.

You said:
But yes God does require obedience, but it's not works it's repentance.

This is easily refuted. John the Baptist says bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Matthew 3:8). Acts of the Apostles says bring forth deeds (works) befitting of repentance (Acts of the Apostles 26:20). You say that repentance is obedience, and yet the Scriptures say that deeds or works is a connected outflow or result of repentance. Also, it is illogical to say that obedience is different than works. If we obey Jesus (i.e. obeying His commands) we are doing good works. So what you say does not make sense. If I obey my boss at work, chances are I am doing work for him. If a son obeys his father, chances are the son is doing work for his father.

You said:
Otherwise works salvation would contradict romans on about half a dozen occasions.

It's not a contradiction. Paul was NOT talking about ALL Law or ALL forms of work. Paul was talking about trying to replace God's grace with the Old Law. Just read the context. Paul speaks of the Old Law in most cases within his letters when he uses the words "law" and or "works." Paul NEVER says that Sanctification by the Spirit (good works, living holy, and putting away the lusts of the flesh) is condemned if you try to do so as a part of being saved. Folks today want to justify sin. That is why they desire to ignore the context of what Paul was talking about (when he referred to the words "law" and "works").

You said:
So this debate is relatively easy even without quoting commentaries. But I can quote commentaries as well. It's just that they are not the word of God.

I never told you to quote commentaries. I quoted my own words to you before and not a commentary. I desire for you to give your own word for word commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:12-13, and 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17. I am asking for your own words, and not the words of somebody else.

You said:
And by the way, most of the books I have our church created a free program that basically takes text of ebooks and converts it to a format that it can give away for free. I have probably only spent maybe three thousand at the very most for all of my books digital and print. But I have about fifteen thousand dollars worth in digital. About ten thousand are from my churches software to research for those in ministry, I think I posted it in this thread already, but I can give you the link again. And the other two or three thousand I have are from free online books that I have converted from pdf to word, and I have probably at most fifty of those. Anyway, knowledge puffs up. So I don't want people to be well verses in theology, just the Bible. And for you, I would start in romans.

Well, if you paid money for it, I don't think it is good to just give it away for free without asking the permission of the authors. It would be a violation of copyright law. That would be unethical (Unless you have their permission). Besides, I told you before, I think you should have just studied God's Word alone with God in prayer and not look to such information. Again, my point in proof is your misunderstanding on 2 Thessalonians 2 (Which should have never happened if you simply just read the Bible plainly), my friend. You went off what a commentator said without really reading the chapter enough on your own first in prayer. So my encouragement to you is to just put away the commentaries for a change and just read and believe the Bible and pray to the Lord for the understanding. Just read it, and believe it, even if you don't like what it says.

5 "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart;
and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him,
and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes:
fear the Lord, and depart from evil."
(Proverbs 3:5-7).
 
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Paul was arguing against how we are not under the Law of Moses (the 613 laws in the Torah). But we (being New Covenant believers) are under Christ's law.

"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2).

In fact, there is a verse that mentions both an NT Law, and the Law of Moses (OT law).

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2).
 
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Paul says...

"I obey the law of Christ." (1 Corinthians 9:21) (NLT).

Jesus says,

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." (John 13:34).

John says,

"And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also." (1 John 4:19).

Different commands here. Different laws. There is the Law of Moses (the 613), and there is the Law of Christ!
 
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createdtoworship

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I fully agree with your advise for JLB. However, I am curious as to how you can be "in the middle" of this debate.

How can the Bible be so unclear as to leave anyone in that position?

In fact, the debate ends with Jesus' words in John 10:28. It is as clear as can be.

Those given eternal life by Jesus (John 10:28a) which is WHEN one believes (John 5:24, 6:47), shall never perish.

Period.

And it drives Arminians crazy.

ps: I am definitely not a Calvinist.

I am in the middle because I believe that we must repent of moral sin to be saved, but that repentance is not a work like the other two believe it is. If it was works, then it would violate ephesians 2:8 and a host of other verses in romans. I honor your motive for trying to help these two see grace and for that I am grateful. however if you don't believe repentance is part of the Gospel, then go to post one, and download the Lordship index, it has over a hundred verses that speak of repentance being prior to salvation. The reason repentance is part of the Gospel, is because it is a tool we will use our whole life as Christians. No amount of turning from sin will save, but coupled with forgiveness it gives us the tools to live as God would have us to live. Repentance in the Bible is spoken of as a gift, "granted to the gentiles." For thousands of years we didn't have an option. Salvation was of the Jews only. Then God opened it up for everyone, and now we get to turn over a new leaf and turn from our addictions to Christ. Salvation is not just to get to heaven, but to have victory over sin, here and now.
 
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createdtoworship

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First, while we do have a new heart with new desires, the Bible tells also us that we to continue in the faith, continue in God's grace, continue in His goodness (otherwise we can be cut off). So the born again regenerated believer is not guaranteed that they will continue in the faith, or God's grace, etc. It is why they are told to do such things that they need to endure to the end to be saved (i.e. to be saved in Glorification).

Second, Paul does make it clear that we can overcome grievous sin in the Scriptures. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says, Let us cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. In your view, there is no cleansing ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit. In your view, there is no real fear of God entirely because a person can sin and still be saved (on some level). They don't have to worry about the words of Jesus that warns how that looking upon a woman in lust can cause one's entire body to be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). In your view of Soteriology, there is no such thing as "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12). You said in a previous post that we can indulge in sin and still be saved. You even implied that believers cannot overcome certain sins like lying and or lusting after women with their eyes by your accusations towards me. But my life is not the standard. God's Word is the standard. I am going to be held account to God's Word just as much as you will be (See John 12:48). Nobody is above what God's Word says. We have to accept what His Word says whether we like it or not.
I believe sin can originate apostacy. It cannot cause us to lose salvation, but it can start the process of a degenerate apostacy. So again I am not sure you can group me with the people you are grouping me with. I think we believe the same, but I don't believe salvation is by works. and you feel it is. So that part concerns me. Again read romans, read it in one sitting. Then tell me that God expects you to do works of righteousness to obtain a free gift. That does not even make logical sense.
 
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JLB777

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I believe sin can originate apostacy. It cannot cause us to lose salvation, but it can start the process of a degenerate apostacy. So again I am not sure you can group me with the people you are grouping me with. I think we believe the same, but I don't believe salvation is by works. and you feel it is. So that part concerns me. Again read romans, read it in one sitting. Then tell me that God expects you to do works of righteousness to obtain a free gift. That does not even make logical sense.


Do you believe the lost need salvation?





JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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Your indoctrination won’t let you see the truth.
Reality: My doctrine is the truth. I got it straight from the Bible.

Example: Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

You have claimed recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

So, who's been indoctrinated?

You have to “make up” some biblical scenario because your mind is blinded by a false doctrine.
I make up nothing. That is a false statement. I state what Jesus said. And you don't believe it.

Even though Jesus Himself is speaking and teaching, saying one His sheep became lost, you just can’t grasp this reality, and you will argue from now on, that lost just can’t mean lost.
I've proven my point. You've done nothing to prove anything, other than thinking that 'lost' always means unsaved.

If that were true, then Jesus contradicted Himself in that parable. That's where you logic takes you. Believing that Jesus contradicted Himself. Congratulations.

So you try and “redefine” the word lost to mean something other than what it so plainly means.
Let me ask you something. In a marriage, if one spouse highly offends the other, is fellowship between them lost or not?

You have what the Bible calls a “Stronghold”, and it exalts itself against the knowledge of God.
The only "stronhold" I have is my strong hold on Scripture.

otoh, you don't have a grip on it.

Lost means separated from Christ; a sinner in need of repentance.
OK, that's your definition. So what? Context proves you wrong.

You do understand what sinner means, don’t you?
Of course. It means a human being. Who is violating God's standards.

Like one who, after hearing what Jesus said, continues to believe the opposite.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I am in the middle because I believe that we must repent of moral sin to be saved
Where would I find this in Scripture? All I've ever found is that salvation is by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repenting of sin is a work, or human effort.

I reject that there is any human effort that is involved in salvation. Eph 2:9 supports my view.

but that repentance is not a work like the other two believe it is. If it was works, then it would violate ephesians 2:8 and a host of other verses in romans.
The Greek word comes from 2 words; "change" and "mind". So, basically, it means to change the mind. It is involved in salvation in the sense that a person MUST realize (change their mind) that they are sinful and headed for the lake of fire, and that Jesus Christ solved their problem by paying their sin debt in full and that He promises salvation for those who believe in Him.

In that sense alone.

However, faith in Christ obviously involves a change of mind about a number of things.

I honor your motive for trying to help these two see grace and for that I am grateful. however if you don't believe repentance is part of the Gospel, then go to post one, and download the Lordship index, it has over a hundred verses that speak of repentance being prior to salvation.
My explanation above shows that I understand and believe that.

In order to believe something that you previously didn't believe obviously requires a change of mind.
 
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createdtoworship

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Where would I find this in Scripture? All I've ever found is that salvation is by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repenting of sin is a work, or human effort.

I reject that there is any human effort that is involved in salvation. Eph 2:9 supports my view.


The Greek word comes from 2 words; "change" and "mind". So, basically, it means to change the mind. It is involved in salvation in the sense that a person MUST realize (change their mind) that they are sinful and headed for the lake of fire, and that Jesus Christ solved their problem by paying their sin debt in full and that He promises salvation for those who believe in Him.

In that sense alone.

However, faith in Christ obviously involves a change of mind about a number of things.


My explanation above shows that I understand and believe that.

In order to believe something that you previously didn't believe obviously requires a change of mind.
check out this link, read the document fully then describe salvation in light of those passages....
LORDSHIP-INDEX-–UPDATE-5.doc.docx
 
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createdtoworship

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You mean, the chapter. The whole chapter is dealing with Paul talking to the local believers at Thessalonica. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is also not dealing with a form of Positional Sanctification, either. Verse 12 gives us a contrast or parallel. It says:

full


2 Thessalonians 2:13 says GOD has chosen you to salvation through:

full
Sanctification of the Spirit.

full
Belief of the truth.

The verse actually mentions things in reverse order. In the proper order, we are saved first by a "Belief of the Truth" (Justification), and by the "Sanctification of the Spirit" (Sanctification, i.e. Holy Living).

Anyways, verse 12 gives us a contrast or polar opposite of verse 13.

Verse 12 - Believe not the Truth. vs. Verse 13 - Belief of the Truth.
Verse 12 - Pleasure in unrighteousness vs. Verse 13 Sanctification of the Spirit.

Also,

full


Verse 17 (2 Thessalonians 2:17) is the context of verse 13 in 2 Thessalonians 2.
Verse 17 mentions good works being the aftermath or result of God's grace (verse 16).
This is the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that talks about the Sanctification of the Spirit.
We have TWO verses in context supporting that "Sanctification of the Spirit" is in reference to living holy or doing good works. Verse 12 is an opposite contrast, and verses 16-17 gives us a grace, and then works pattern again.



No. Again. I don't believe we are saved solely by works (i.e. Works Alone Salvationism). One more time. We are saved by...

full




Actually, Justification and Sanctification is what I am talking about this whole time. No offense, but you are just talking about "Justification" for salvation, plus a version of repentance that does not exist in the Bible. I believe in Justification + Sanctification for salvation. I believe the Bible teaches that both are needed for salvation. I have already proven it multiple times with Scripture in this very thread.



Okay. Please do not assume that I have not read the book of Romans. Remember, I had to actually show you what 2nd Thessalonians 2 plainly said and you were not really reading it. I have read and studied the letters by Paul many times over a good number of years. I have studied Paul's words of when he spoke negatively using the word "law" and the word "works" many times.

#1. Paul is referring to the Old Law (the 613 laws within the Law of Moses).
#2. Paul is referring to those who are trying to be saved by "Law Alone Salvationism" (without God's grace).
#3. Circumcision Salvationism was one of the false beliefs that was being spread during this time, and we can see Paul's own words allude to this heresy in Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, etc. (Note: This heresy was more clearly defined at the Jerusalem council in Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

In other words, whenever the next time you read Paul, and he talks about "works" or the "law," try reading it as saying, "works alone" or "law alone" (i.e. by obeying the whole of the Old Law, i.e. the 613 laws within the Law of Moses without God's grace). I guarantee you that if you were to follow this rule the next time you read Paul, things will start to make more sense in defending the truth on the necessity of holiness (as taught in the Scriptures). For when Paul speaks negatively when using the words "law" and "works": Paul is referring to the Justification Process, and NOT the Sanctification Process.



This is easily refuted. John the Baptist says bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Matthew 3:8). Acts of the Apostles says bring forth deeds (works) befitting of repentance (Acts of the Apostles 26:20). You say that repentance is obedience, and yet the Scriptures say that deeds or works is a connected outflow or result of repentance. Also, it is illogical to say that obedience is different than works. If we obey Jesus (i.e. obeying His commands) we are doing good works. So what you say does not make sense. If I obey my boss at work, chances are I am doing work for him. If a son obeys his father, chances are the son is doing work for his father.



It's not a contradiction. Paul was NOT talking about ALL Law or ALL forms of work. Paul was talking about trying to replace God's grace with the Old Law. Just read the context. Paul speaks of the Old Law in most cases within his letters when he uses the words "law" and or "works." Paul NEVER says that Sanctification by the Spirit (good works, living holy, and putting away the lusts of the flesh) is condemned if you try to do so as a part of being saved. Folks today want to justify sin. That is why they desire to ignore the context of what Paul was talking about (when he referred to the words "law" and "works").



I never told you to quote commentaries. I quoted my own words to you before and not a commentary. I desire for you to give your own word for word commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:12-13, and 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17. I am asking for your own words, and not the words of somebody else.



Well, if you paid money for it, I don't think it is good to just give it away for free without asking the permission of the authors. It would be a violation of copyright law. That would be unethical (Unless you have their permission). Besides, I told you before, I think you should have just studied God's Word alone with God in prayer and not look to such information. Again, my point in proof is your misunderstanding on 2 Thessalonians 2 (Which should have never happened if you simply just read the Bible plainly), my friend. You went off what a commentator said without really reading the chapter enough on your own first in prayer. So my encouragement to you is to just put away the commentaries for a change and just read and believe the Bible and pray to the Lord for the understanding. Just read it, and believe it, even if you don't like what it says.

5 "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart;
and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him,
and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes:
fear the Lord, and depart from evil."
(Proverbs 3:5-7).

Do you believe the lost need salvation?
JLB
nice pictures, very well done. both of you....I don't disagree with anything you said, other than we are saved by works,


satan among us.png


If I decided to give you a gift, say my smart watch and you could accept it or reject it, and you decided to take it. But later on you tried to pay for it. I would be offended. I would think that you were trying to one up me, and you were not really grateful for what I gave you. I would be offended highly. But somehow you think God likes your theology and is honored by it. And this is troubling. You reak of religion, when Jesus only desires relationship. The pharisees were the only ones in the new testament that Jesus rebuked and called snakes. I am saying this to help you. I don't think Jesus is pleased with the heresy presented here. Please, for your own sake repent, and believe the Gospel. Which is a free gift. If you wish to learn more accurate soteriology, rather than quoting a book on eschatology (thessalonians), why not go to the most well known doctrinal book of theology in the new testament? Romans? Romans is by far the hardest book to teach in the new testament because it is loaded with doctrine. Anyway, start there. Read it all in one sitting.
 
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FreeGrace2

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check out this link, read the document fully then describe salvation in light of those passages....
LORDSHIP-INDEX-–UPDATE-5.doc.docx
The words "Lordship Salvation" represent a basically works-based system of salvation, led by John McArthur. I've read several of his books on the subject and I reject his tenets.

I believe Scripture refutes "Lordship Salvaton".

First, the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 did great things all "in His Name", yet, Jesus told them, "I NEVER knew you". Such a statement proves that none of them had ever believed in Him for salvation. And the basis for their appeal to entering the kingdom was based on what THEY had done. None of them said anything about what Jesus had done for them.

So, even great works done in the Name of Jesus isn't salvific. And all the time they recognized His Lordship.

And Peter admonished his saved audience to "make Christ Lord". This is something that believers are told to do.

So, no one is saved by "making Christ Lord". In fact, saved people are commanded to do this.

Since salvation is by grace through faith, this excludes any human effort, just as Eph 2:9 says.
 
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I believe sin can originate apostacy. It cannot cause us to lose salvation, but it can start the process of a degenerate apostacy. So again I am not sure you can group me with the people you are grouping me with.

Because you are justifying the idea that a believer can abide in some kind of grievous sin on some small level, and still be saved. They do not lose salvation via when they sin. You said sin does not cause a loss of salvation for a believer, but it can potentially lead to apostasy (Note: It is spelled "apostasy" and not "apostacy").

This is similar to the Free Will Baptist belief. They may not believe in Eternal Security, but they believe similar to the Eternal Security Proponent in the fact that one can sin and still be saved.

Your idea of repentance (Which cannot be found in the Bible), appears to be some kind of mental hate towards sin, and striving to fight against it, but we will never really stop sinning in this life. You suggest repentance is "obedience" but it is not works. Tell me, do you think you could work at a job and tell your boss that you are going to obey him, and yet you are not going to do any work? How about with a father and son? Do you think that a son can tell his father that he will obey him but he will not do any work? Pretty much that rules doing anything for his father then. Why? Because works and obedience are tied together.

You said:
I think we believe the same, but I don't believe salvation is by works. and you feel it is.

Jesus says there are those who will falsely accuse His followers on the account of Him (Matthew 5:11). Please do not be one of them. I told you a ton of times already, that I do NOT believe salvation is by works (i.e. by Works Alone without God's grace). I believe salvation is in both God's grace through faith (Justification), and in holy living by the Spirit that follows (Sanctification). Look, you do not have to agree that we are saved by Justification + Sanctification, but do not keep distorting what I told you I believe. You can say it is not of the Bible, but do not keep misrepresenting what I actually believe. You would be accusing me of something false that I do not actually believe.

You said:
So that part concerns me.

I understand that from your perspective that this concerns you, but in reality you are not accepting the whole counsel of God's Word and you are reading the words "law" and "works" from a wrong bias and not based on what the context says. Paul is referring to the "Law of Moses" (the 613 laws as a whole). Next time you read Romans, try putting the word "the Law of Moses" in there.

You said:
Again read romans, read it in one sitting.

You are either not reading what I wrote properly, or you keep falsely accusing me of something contrary to what I told you. I told you I have read and studied Romans and Paul's other letters many times. I have no problem reconciling Paul's words on Justification with his words on Sanctification. Again, when Paul refers to "works" or the "law" in negative way or how we are not under the Law, he is referring to the Law of Moses (the 613) and he is not referring to the Law of Christ or those commands that come from Jesus and His followers and neither is Paul referring to the Sanctification Process, either. Try reading Romans again and replace the word "Law" and or "works" with the words "Law of Moses" or "Works of the Law of Moses" and it will become more clear for you in what it says. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. We are not under the Old Law (the Law of Moses) anymore. This is why you are confused when you read Paul. You are taking his words out context when you read him.

You said:
Then tell me that God expects you to do works of righteousness to obtain a free gift. That does not even make logical sense.

Well, that is because you keep distorting what I have said that I believe. You keep saying that I believe that we are saved by works (i.e. by works alone), and I am telling you that we are saved by both:

#1. JUSTIFICATION (God's grace through faith that comes first, which is like a gift without works), and then we are saved by:
#2. SANCTIFICATION (that follows, which does include good works, holy living, or the fruit of the Spirit).

You are mixing Justification verses with Sanctification verses. However, they are two different processes. Again, you falsely accuse me of something I do not believe. I never said, "God expects you to do works of righteousness to obtain a free gift." That is your false accusation of something I do not believe. I believe we can freely receive God's grace through faith without works or the deeds of the Law of Moses. We can seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ and and receive Him as our Lord and Savior, and believe in His death and resurrection. This is not based primarily in anything we did, but it is based on what God did for us, and His mercy. This is the Justification Process. The verses you are reading are Justification verses. It is when you first receive Jesus Christ as your Savior. It is referring to "Initial Salvation" and or "Foundational Salvation." We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ and His mercy. For if a believer sins, do they go out and do a work of righteousness to be forgiven of their sin? No. They go to Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1). For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). But after we are saved by God's grace, His grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). Your version of God's grace does not appear to align with what Titus 2:11-12 says. The Bible says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
 
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nice pictures, very well done. I don't disagree with anything you said, other than we are saved by works,

But you missed the point of the message with the pictures I used.
My pictures were supporting the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 in regards to the the "Sanctification of the Spirit." Please go back and re-read my post again involving the pictures. For the whole reason why I posted the pics was to show how Sanctification is also included in the salvation Process (In addition to Justification).

I would not use the james verse and tie it to justification.

James is referring to both Justification, and Sanctification. He is saying that a faith (Justification) without works (No Sanctification) is dead in James 2:17.

While James uses the word "justified" (i.e. to be declared "just") in James 2:24, he is not referring exclusively to the Justification Process alone, but he is referring to how we need both works (Sanctification), and faith (Justification). For we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). For a faith alone without works is dead (James 2:17). Grace and Sanctification is the same theme we can see in both 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17.

You said:
You can tie works to sanctification which is not part of salvation, but comes after salvation. There is an ignition of sactification at justification and they do over lap in part. But sanctification does not save, it's a description of salvation.

Again, not true.


After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:



(Here are a List of Verses):


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).​

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).​

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).​

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).​

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).​

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).


You said:
I wish you would just read romans. Just so you know when you go to Bible college romans is by far the most doctrinal book in the new testament, it touches on roughly every doctrine necessary for the christian walk. That is why it's a good book. It teaches a well overall good theology. And the fact you avoid it is.....well disturbing.

Again, I told you I have read and studied Paul's letters (like Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, etc.) when they refer to the Law and or works in a negative light (When he speaks of salvation). Again, Paul is referring to the Law of Moses (or the 613 laws given to Israel) and or "Law Alone Salvationism" that did not include God's grace. In essence, folks were denying the Justification Process by trying to be saved by the Law of Moses. This was usually (and not always the case) involving the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which said you had to first be circumcised in order to be saved). You can read this as a part of the context (even in Romans).

Anyways, I believe Bible college is a part of the problem why many do not understand the Bible. They let somebody tell them what the Bible says vs. allowing them to just read and believe it in what it plainly says.

Anyways, I reply to the rest of what you wrote at a later time (hopefully today, Lord willing).

May God's blessings be upon you, even if we disagree strongly on the topic of salvation.

May you please be well.

Sincerely,

~ J.
 
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Because you are justifying the idea that a believer can abide in some kind of grievous sin on some small level, and still be saved. They do not lose salvation via when they sin. You said sin does not cause a loss of salvation for a believer, but it can potentially lead to apostasy (Note: It is spelled "apostasy" and not "apostacy").

This is similar to the Free Will Baptist belief. They may not believe in Eternal Security, but they believe similar to the Eternal Security Proponent in the fact that one can sin and still be saved.
Please provide verses that clearly (that means plain wording) state that believers lose salvation by sin.

If you can't, then please stop repeating what is patently false. Because IF believers could lose salvation by sin, that message would have been plastered all over the Bible.
 
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