- Mar 13, 2004
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yes sir I didn't read the passage fully I agree, I am very busy and this is why I don't typically debate. But saying we are saved by works, annoys me to no end. It's not our works we are saved by. I hope that talking about justification and sanctification will trigger something in you. Since you said you like to read the whole chapter before speaking on a verse, try reading romans in one sitting, use various translations, you will have problems in that book. That was the book that convinced martin luther to start protestantism. If you have a particular verse that that section out of that systematic theology spoke to you, go ahead and quote it. I have many more books I can quote. But yes God does require obedience, but it's not works it's repentance. Otherwise works salvation would contradict romans on about half a dozen occasions. So this debate is relatively easy even without quoting commentaries. But I can quote commentaries as well. It's just that they are not the word of God. And by the way, most of the books I have our church created a free program that basically takes text of ebooks and converts it to a format that it can give away for free. I have probably only spent maybe three thousand at the very most for all of my books digital and print. But I have about fifteen thousand dollars worth in digital. About ten thousand are from my churches software to research for those in ministry, I think I posted it in this thread already, but I can give you the link again. And the other two or three thousand I have are from free online books that I have converted from pdf to word, and I have probably at most fifty of those. Anyway, knowledge puffs up. So I don't want people to be well verses in theology, just the Bible. And for you, I would start in romans.Grace, peace, and love to you from the Lord Jesus Christ.
I hope your day is going well.
Anyways, to get down to business:
Well, on certain rare occasions when I would get into a bind on understanding something in the Bible: I would pray, and I would then read a ton of Christian articles (This would not be official Bible commentaries generally). For what other believers say can be helpful at times, but I also test the Scriptures to see if what they say is true. I believe that we should pray, compare Scripture with Scripture (by looking at the context, and cross references), etc. I believe most misunderstandings happen, when we do not read the context. Whenever I try to talk about a verse or passage, I generally try to re-read the chapter again before I reply back with the person and I sometimes will pray. By this method, God has actually helped me to re-evaluate what I was going to say and in some cases it has helped me to change my beliefs on a particular topic. I would just read the text openly without any particular bias (Except with the bias that GOD is always good and morally upright, i.e. Holy).
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
"That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."
(1 Corinthians 2:5).
Our faith is not in what Theologians say, but it is in what God's Word says (of which I am sure you would agree).
No offense, and please do not take what I say in the wrong way, I say this with love: But if you were to look at the investment you made in all those books, you still were not able to give me a normal explanation on 2 Thessalonians 2 right away, my friend. You kept referring to what others said until you eventually read it yourself and came to the conclusion that Paul was talking to local believers. But I am glad. I am so glad that you read it for yourself eventually. So thank you for doing that. It lets me know that you are for reading what God's Word plainly says to a certain degree.
Anyways, the problem is that you should have never had this wrong conclusion to begin with, friend. I believe your investment should have been in God's Word alone with God by way of prayer (But that is just my personal opinion from my walk with the Lord). I am also not looking to criticize only here, either. I have made my fair share of mistakes as a believer, as well. But after my fight for the Lord Jesus Christ, one thing I always fought for was the truth in what His Word plainly said. I just read and believe the Bible. I accept all of what God's Word says even if I may not like it.
For regardless of what you may believe, or think now, I got the impression before that you did not accept all of what God's Word says by the Google Document you provided on Lordship Salvation. The commentator in that Google document appeared to mock the idea of what Scripture was telling them to do. Yet, a person cannot mock God's Word by going against what it is telling them to do. All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness, my friend (2 Timothy 3:16-17). I sure hope that I merely misunderstood you and you were not actually saying that you cannot apply those verses to your life.
Based on the light of Scripture: I believe the Justification Process (Which is believing in Christ's death, burial and resurrection on our behalf for salvation, accepting Jesus as our Savior, and seeking forgiveness of our sins with Christ by way of prayer) is two fold involving one being "sanctified," "cleansed," or "washed."
#1. A person is forgiven of all their PAST sins when they ask the Lord Jesus Christ to forgive them of their past life of sin. They are cleansed, sanctified, washed by Christ's sacrifice of their PAST sins by believing in the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and by seeking forgiveness with Him and receiving the Lord into their heart and life. For all the angels of God celebrate in Heaven over one sinner that repents (i.e. seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus). The Provisional Atonement of the sacrifice of Christ is applied! By this, believers are Sanctified! (Hebrews 10:10).
#2. After a person takes this 1st step (or action) towards God, they are given a new heart, with new desires, and they are given the Holy Spirit. They will be a new creation in Christ Jesus. But this does not mean their free will is no longer in existence anymore because they can still sin, and or choose to walk away from God. We are sanctified in the regeneration process or in being born again spiritually (Which is a one time event after a person accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior).
In regards to being "sanctified" in Justification: I believe the Justification Process is only Positional in being in His Kingdom based on meeting God's conditions within His plan of salvation. A person is only a child of Christ, based on coming to Jesus, and if they sin again, they can die spiritually, unless they confess and forsake such sins (Note: This would be grievous or serious sins that the Bible clearly condemns with words like "having their part in the Lake of Fire," or "not inheriting the Kingdom of God," etc.). Those who refuse to truly seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus, and or those who justify sin in some way, they will later be cast out as being a child of Christ's Kingdom at the Judgment before Christ gives back the kingdom to God. For we learn in Matthew 13:41-42 that Jesus will send forth his angels and they will gather out of His Kingdom all who offend (sin or make others to sin), and who work iniquity (lawlessness), and they will cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Meaning, angels of Christ will throw believers who sin into the Lake of Fire at the Judgment before Christ gives the Kingdom back to God.
This is why Progressive Sanctification in the 2nd work of God done in our lives is so important, and why it is essential to our salvation. We are "sanctified" both in the Justification Process, and in the Sanctification Process. For Salvation is an Ongoing Process of cooperating with the Lord. While our Initial Salvation is important, salvation is not exclusively a one time event in the past alone.
In any event, I will reply to the rest of what you wrote a little later (Lord willing).
I also do not want to make my post overly long so as to discourage you and or anyone else from reading it, too.
I am wishing you all manner of good things to you in Christ Jesus (even if we do not agree on the topic of Soteriology).
May you blessed in the Lord this fine day.
With loving kindness to you in Christ,
Sincerely,
~ J.
Side Note:
I believe the Justification Process also continues after we initially accept the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior. Thus, being "sanctified," "washed," "cleansed" is a continual process so that the believer can overcome grievous sins or serious sin that the Bible clearly condemns. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). But confessing sin is in view of forsaking sin with the intent of putting it away (See 1 John 1:7, 1 John 2:3-4, and Proverbs 28:13).
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