Paul's Man of Sin Doesn't Enter the Jewish Temple

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,782
3,421
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Rev. 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev. 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Rev. 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
RT, the reason the angel Apollyon is not the beast in the bottomless pit is because of the order of events, the beast will have come out of the bottomless pit before Apollyon is released.

Here's the order:

1. The two witnessed testimony is 1260 days long, Revelation 11:3.

2. The beast kills them near the end of their 1260 days. So the beast had already come out of the bottomless pit at that point.

3. Then in Revelation 11:14-15, the 7th angels sounds, which also signifies the third woe coming quickly. Which is Satan, then cast down to earth in Revelation 12:12 as the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth.

4. Satan, cast down, is the falling star in Revelation 9, who releases Apollyon.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,782
3,421
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
You need to take another look at these passages. There is no sign that they are talking about the same person or the same series of events.
It is the same person because that person meets his demise when Jesus returns, in Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 11.

2Thessalonians2:4 = the transgression of desolation in Daniel 8
Revelation 13 the image of the beast = the abomination of desolation.
 
Upvote 0

Revealing Times

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2016
2,845
420
59
Clanton Alabama
✟108,106.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
RT, the reason the angel Apollyon is not the beast in the bottomless pit is because of the order of events, the beast will have come out of the bottomless pit before Apollyon is released.

Here's the order:

1. The two witnessed testimony is 1260 days long, Revelation 11:3.
Correct, starting starting on day 1185.

2. The beast kills them near the end of their 1260 days. So the beast had already come out of the bottomless pit at that point.
Correct, on their 1260th day they die, which is only the Little Horn/Beasts 1185th day, as the Beast which he became on day 1261 of 2520 days.

3. Then in Revelation 11:14-15, the 7th angels sounds, which also signifies the third woe coming quickly. Which is Satan, then cast down to earth in Revelation 12:12 as the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth.
The 3rd Woe is ALL 7 Vials, it has zero to do with Satan being cast down, which happened on day 1261 at the 6th Seal, the same day the first 5 seals were opened on.

4. Satan, cast down, is the falling star in Revelation 9, who releases Apollyon.
The Angel with the Key is an Angel, not a Demon.

All ENTITIES with power over Mediterranean Sea Region, whilst Israel is in the land are BEASTS. That would be Anti-Christ/BEAST. The Devil himself in Rev. Rev. 12 and Apollyon in Rev. 17.

I was GETTING SLEEPY had to take a nap I was losing concentration. Its Rev. 17 via Apollyon.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,782
3,421
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,782
3,421
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The Angel with the Key is an Angel, not a Demon.
The falling star, an angel is not a demon, but Satan. Falling from the second heaven, on his way down to earth in Revelation 12.

The beast in the bottomless pit is not Apollyon. Apollyon can be eliminated because of the order of events that precede him being released.
_________________________________________________

The beast in the garden that was used by Satan could speak and reason, before being degraded losing those abilities to become the first of the snakes - what was in it for that beast to do Satan's work? Adam and Eve first of us humans were above that beast. So what do you think was in it for the beast to do what he did?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,782
3,421
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Correct, starting starting on day 1185.
The two witnesses 1260 days start on day 1. This can be easily be determined by working back from the third woe of Satan cast down to earth having a time, times, half times left.

For some reason, you are having a hard time coming to grips with the text of Revelation 12:12 woe to the inhabiters of the earth, as being the third woe.

Working back through the text:

Jesus Returns following,
> the time, times, half times third woe of Revelation 12:14 following,
> the war in the second heaven Revelation 12:7-9 following,
> the sounding of the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:14-15 following
> the great earthquake following
> the two witnesses coming back to life and ascending following
> killed by the beast at the end of their 1260 testimony following
> the confirming of the covenant by the Antichrist

In addition, verified this way by working back through the text:

Jesus Returns following,
> the time, times, half times third woe of Revelation 12:14 following,
> the war in the second heaven Revelation 12:7-9 following,
> the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Revealing Times

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2016
2,845
420
59
Clanton Alabama
✟108,106.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
RT, look at the text. The third woe is Satan cast down to earth having great wrath. The key phrase "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth".
No its not, if you would stop and think you would understand it can't be.

The Dragon CHASES the Woman for 1260 days which tells us he is cast out on day 1261, at the 6th Seal, and the other 5 Seals are also opened on day 1261 also.

The First 4 Seals are the Anti-Christ who is now the Beast, Conquering Israel/Jerusalem and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region and maybe even the whole world over a 42 month period, the 5th Seal is the testimony pf the Martyrs. The 6th Seal is Gods Wrath being affirmed.

The 7th Seal begins the 7 Trumps after a half hour wait, it is only opened when the 144,000 {Fleeing Jews of 2-3 million or more} reach Petra/Bozrah safely. Since the Jews are protected in Petra for 1260 days I am going to assume that the 7th Seal is also opened on Day 1261. Then the first Four Trumps sound and bring HURT to the Earth, Trees and the Seas. All that is left are the LAST THREE TRUMPS, which are the Three Woes, we know this by reading Revelation 8:13

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other VOICES of the trumpet of the three angels, which are YET TO SOUND!

So the Last Three Trumpets ARE the Last Three Woes, there is no ifs ands or buts about it.

So the Three Woes are all that is left via God's Judgment.

The First Woe is an Angel of God with a KEY who unlocks Apollyon, why would anyone think Satan has God's KEYS ? He wouldn't of course. Satan was cast out of Heaven remember on day 1261, not at this time which is much later. So your reasoning is off and your timing is off kilter.

The Second Woe is the 200 Million Angelic Army that slays another 1.5-2 billion Wicked Men {1/3 of all who are left}, they bring PLAGUES to mankind, so its not Human Beings from China.

The Third Woe is the 7th Trumpet, just like the First Woe was the 5th Trumpet and the 2nd Woe was the 6th Trumpet. Thus the 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe, just like the 7th Seal is all 7 Trumps being released. See the pattern ? So all 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe, its the only thing that works out properly, and it fits the patterns AND the verses in Rev. 8:13 and elsewhere.

Satan is cast down at the 6th Seal, not at the First Woe.


One can give TROUBLES without being THE WOE as mentioned as the Three Woes. That's the same kinda thinking that gives you guys who can't those in Rev. 7:9-16 as the Church who came out of the GREAT TRIBULATION, you aren't willing to acknowledge God can see GREAT in various ways. The Great Tribulation being spoken of in Rev. 7:9-16 is the Tribulation Church Age Period which is GREATER in length than the 70th Week Tribulation. So they came out of the 2000 year Church Age Tribulation. Now you don't have to mess up the book of Revelation by twisting it to fit, it already fits. Those Martyrs CAN NOT be in Heaven, Rev. 20:4 specifically says they are Judged AFTER Jesus returns !! They are the ones that live and reign with Christ ON EARTH for 1000 years, they refused the Mark of the Beast, if you did not DENY the Mark of the Beast you are not being spoken of in Rev. 20:4, and that is a fact.

The 7 vials are not said to be woe to the inhabiters of the earth.

Of course it is, its the 7th Trump, see Rev. 11, after the 7th Trump Jesus TAKES OVER, that is because the 7th Trump is the 7 Vials of Rev. 16 !!

The falling star, an angel is not a demon, but Satan. Falling from the second heaven, on his way down to earth in Revelation 12.

The beast in the bottomless pit is not Apollyon. Apollyon can be eliminated because of the order of events that precede him being released.
It specifically call him Apollyon. Hes the DESTROYER as called by Israel, meaning he was not always in the pit. He was placed over Israel to DESTROY THEM !! Why do you think they call him the Destroyer ?

The beast in the garden that was used by Satan could speak and reason, before being degraded losing those abilities to become the first of the snakes - what was in it for that beast to do Satan's work? Adam and Eve first of us humans were above that beast. So what do you think was in it for the beast to do what he did?

I am not worried about a snake Demon in the Garden of Eden. The Bibles says it was the Devil, it really doesn't matter with these end time themes who he was, IMHO.
 
Upvote 0

Revealing Times

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2016
2,845
420
59
Clanton Alabama
✟108,106.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
The two witnesses 1260 days start on day 1. This can be easily be determined by working back from the third woe of Satan cast down to earth having a time, times, half times left.
No it doesn't, you not being able to get that simple math problem is on you brother. The Two-witnesses are the 1335, thus they show up on day 1885. They day at the 6th Trump so you would have us believe they show up on DAY ONE and the 6th Trump is 1260 days later ? That is not possible. That would mean the Anti-Christ who came on day 1261 {in your thinking} couldn't cross paths with the Two-witnesses. You just have never got your hands around this, I have seen your math out of sorts for like 4 years now.

For some reason, you are having a hard time coming to grips with the text of Revelation 12:12 woe to the inhabiters of the earth, as being the third woe.
Because its not the 3rd Woe nor can it be the 3rd Woe, Satan is cast down at the 6th Seal, not at the 1st Woe. Just because he brings TROUBLES doesn't mean he has to be one of the THREE WOES.

Jesus Returns following,
> the time, times, half times third woe of Revelation 12:14 following,
Jesus returns DURING the 3rd Woe because the 7th Vial is a part of the 3rd Woe.

> the war in the second heaven Revelation 12:7-9 following,
Satan is cast out in Rev. 6 at the 6th Seal.

> the sounding of the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:14-15 following
The 7th Trumpet of Rev. 11 IS the 7 Vials of Rev. 16 !!

> the great earthquake following
There are many GREAT EARTHQUAKES in the book of Revelation.

> the two witnesses coming back to life and ascending following
> killed by the beast at the end of their 1260 testimony following

They are killed with 75 days left until Jesus' Second Coming on day 2445.

> the confirming of the covenant by the Antichrist
The Peace Agreements are already in place as we speak, the AC just reups them with 7 years to go.

Jesus Returns following,
> the time, times, half times third woe of Revelation 12:14 following,
That's true, but you don't understand how that comes to pass. It happens in Rev. 16, Rev. 11 is just a Parenthetical Citation.

> the war in the second heaven Revelation 12:7-9 following,
> the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6
Rev. 12 is also a Parenthetical Citation.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,782
3,421
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
No it doesn't, you not being able to get that simple math problem is on you brother. The Two-witnesses are the 1335, thus they show up on day 1885. They day at the 6th Trump so you would have us believe they show up on DAY ONE and the 6th Trump is 1260 days later ? That is not possible. That would mean the Anti-Christ who came on day 1261 {in your thinking} couldn't cross paths with the Two-witnesses. You just have never got your hands around this, I have seen your math out of sorts for like 4 years now.
I have no idea of what you are attempting to communicate.

Satan is cast down at the 6th Seal,
Huh? I don't where you come up with that statement.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,782
3,421
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Because its not the 3rd Woe nor can it be the 3rd Woe, Satan is cast down at the 6th Seal, not at the 1st Woe. Just because he brings TROUBLES doesn't mean he has to be one of the THREE WOES.
Yes, it does, because it says "woe, to the habiters of the earth" in the text of Revelation 12:12, the same as in Revelation 8:13. You can't see that?

Satan will be cast down to earth when the 7th trumpet sounds, which the 7th trumpet announces the third woe.

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tra Phull

Ecumenical Loose Canon
Oct 24, 2019
1,248
684
Waco
✟45,894.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I think you have a great point here, Dale, the Temple in 2Thes 2 need not be a physical Temple.

And LLOJ points out NAOS rather than HIERON for sanctuary/temple - this is good stuff!

I gotta read this whole thread, but the idea of Paul NOT referring to the physical Temple opens up a lot...
 
  • Like
Reactions: jgr
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,183
1,229
71
Sebring, FL
✟666,487.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
He did in Job. Either way the Earthly kingdoms are ultimately controlled by him and he could actually offer them to Christ because it was true.

And my reply shows that doesn't matter. If one can figure out who the Scarlet Colored Beast is in Rev. 17 he can then figure out who the prince of Persia was in Dan. ch. 10. The bible was meant to clue people in via understanding the whole bible. Here a little, there a little.


Its a fact, Satan can't be cast out of Heaven if hes not there. look at the book of Job, it says they met in Heaven. Now there are three Heavens remember, our Atmosphere, the heavens of this Universe, and Gods Heaven. We are told Satan has access to make petitions in heaven against us daily, and that Micheal casts Satan out of Heaven.


I'll do a thread on the Book of Job to clarify this.
I think you are on the wrong track in how you understand the Book of Job.
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,183
1,229
71
Sebring, FL
✟666,487.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
It is the same person because that person meets his demise when Jesus returns, in Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 11.

2Thessalonians2:4 = the transgression of desolation in Daniel 8
Revelation 13 the image of the beast = the abomination of desolation.



A lot of evil people will meet their demise when Jesus returns, so that doesn't mean anything. (See below.) As I said, I am not seeing any connection between Paul's Man of Sin and the Little Horn character in Daniel. The Man of Sin is a religious leader and the danger is deception. The Little Horn person is a political and military leader. They are not the same at all.


17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.[c]

Revelation 14: 17-20 NIV

  1. [c] Revelation 14:20 That is, about 180 miles or about 300 kilometers
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,782
3,421
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
A lot of evil people will meet their demise when Jesus returns, so that doesn't mean anything. (See below.) As I said, I am not seeing any connection between Paul's Man of Sin and the Little Horn character in Daniel. The Man of Sin is a religious leader and the danger is deception. The Little Horn person is a political and military leader. They are not the same at all.
Dale, go to Ezekiel 28:1-10. The prince of tyre is a code name for the person. Similarly, the king of tyre is a code name for Satan in that same chapter. The prince of tyre is a political figure.

1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

Dale, God will have the person killed for his act. And in Isaiah 14, finding his soul hell, he will be mocked before God in disdain for the person brings him back to life, at which time the person becomes the beast.

On the other hand, the second beast, the false prophet in Revelation 13 is a religious figure, which appears that he will claim to be Elijah the prophet.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,183
1,229
71
Sebring, FL
✟666,487.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Dale, go to Ezekiel 28:1-10. The prince of tyre is a code name for the person. Similarly, the king of tyre is a code name for Satan in that same chapter. The prince of tyre is a political figure.

1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

Dale, God will have the person killed for his act. And in Isaiah 14, finding his soul hell, he will be mocked before God in disdain for the person brings him back to life, at which time the person becomes the beast.

On the other hand, the second beast, the false prophet in Revelation 13 is a religious figure, which appears that he will claim to be Elijah the prophet.



Dougg: << The prince of tyre is a code name for the person. Similarly, the king of tyre is a code name for Satan in that same chapter. >>

I'm afraid the "King of Tyre" and the "Prince of Tyre" are the same person, they are two ways of speaking of the same ruler. I have commented on this chapter before and I reject the notion that Satan is the King of Tyre. Ezekiel is talking about historical persons.

Once more, instead of answering my objections to your claims, you simply jump to another part of the Bible and change the subject.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jgr
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,782
3,421
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Dougg: << The prince of tyre is a code name for the person. Similarly, the king of tyre is a code name for Satan in that same chapter. >>

I'm afraid the "King of Tyre" and the "Prince of Tyre" are the same person, they are two ways of speaking of the same ruler. I have commented on this chapter before and I reject the notion that Satan is the King of Tyre. Ezekiel is talking about historical persons.

Once more, instead of answering my objections to your claims, you simply jump to another part of the Bible and change the subject.
Your objection was that the revealed man of sin in 2Thessalonians2:4 had to be a religious figure.

I answered that objection of yours by showing the prince of tyre does the same thing that the revealed man of sin does in 2Thessalonians2:4. The prince of tyre is not a religious figure, such as a high priest, or prophet. Regardless, if you don't think it is the same person or not. The prince of tyre is not a religious figure, but does the same thing as in 2Thesslaonians2:4.

Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Site Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,419
6,800
✟916,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
I think you have a great point here, Dale, the Temple in 2Thes 2 need not be a physical Temple.

And LLOJ points out NAOS rather than HIERON for sanctuary/temple - this is good stuff!

I gotta read this whole thread, but the idea of Paul NOT referring to the physical Temple opens up a lot...

Here's something I have on it:

The temple of God are Christians themselves according to the new testament.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul wrote both of these which could imply he intended temple of God to always represent Christians.

Look how closely associated the Apostasy is to this false God sitting in the temple of God claiming to be God. That's no coincidence. It is believing this one is God, inside their soul letting this belief into them, into their own personal temple of God, replacing God with a false God that causes and is the Apostasy or falling away from the true God.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums