The Four Aspects of Salvation.

Kenny'sID · Nov 7, 2019

Dave L said:
Obedience to law. The gospel is not law.

OK, thanks, Dave, can you now show us with scripture where obedience to the law is a sin?

reformed05 · Nov 7, 2019

Dave L said:
If not arbitrary, what does he base his choice on? Arbitrary = based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

God has a reason, we just don't know what it is. There are more things we don't know about God, I am sure, than we DO know. Mostly because the finite human mind cannot comprehend the infinite. How can anything about God be random. We DO know that much. And we also know from scripture that His choice utterly resides within Him, and has nothing to do with our worthiness. God NEVER acts on a whim either. If He did how could we possibly trust Him?

Dave L · Nov 7, 2019

reformed05 said:
God has a reason, we just don't know what it is. There are more things we don't know about God, I am sure, than we DO know. Mostly because the finite human mind cannot comprehend the infinite. How can anything about God be random. We DO know that much. And we also know from scripture that His choice utterly resides within Him, and has nothing to do with our worthiness. God NEVER acts on a whim either. If He did how could we possibly trust Him?

Right.......... He picks the good guys? Paul says he makes from the same lump one vessel to honor and another to destruction = purely arbitrary choice.

Dave L · Nov 7, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
OK, thanks, Dave, can you now show us with scripture where obedience to the law is a sin?

It's for the wrong reason. Good people do not need law, only the wicked.

reformed05 · Nov 7, 2019

Dave L said:
Salvation does not work the way you assume it does. God takes spiritually dead people who cannot react spiritually, but only at a flesh level. He regenerates some of these giving them a new heart that discerns spiritual truth and loves him.

“And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

you are assuming too much when you assume how I think salvation works. You have no idea how I think salvation works. Certainly my statement that God doesn't FORCE anyone to be saved would not tell you.
You have indicated that you are a Calvinist. I am too though I prefer Reformed because Calvinist cm be somewhat misleading. You appear to possibly not rightly understand Calvinism because it does not teach that God saves people against their will or that He FORCES some people to be saved and forced others to not be saved. That is exactly what those who oppose Reformed Theology accuse us of believing and why they hate it so much. Maybe you should pick up some R.C. Sproul books.

reformed05 · Nov 7, 2019

Dave L said:
Right.......... He picks the good guys? Paul says he makes from the same lump one vessel to honor and another to destruction = purely arbitrary choice.

DID I NOT JUST SAY THAT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR WORTHINESS? THAT GOD'S REASONS ARE IN HIS MIND.

reformed05 · Nov 7, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Are you justified by faith?
Does being "justified by faith" relate to salvation?

James uses the word "justified" for both in reference to faith, and works in James 2:24.
This means that if "justified by faith" = salvation, then "justified by works" = salvation, too.
For you cannot change the word "justified" to have two different meanings within the same sentence. Also, faith without works is dead (James 2:17). How can a dead faith save anyone? It cannot. So one needs both faith and works.

Justified does not have two meanings. When you are saved, you are justified. Counted as fully righteous by having Christ's righteousness IMPUTED to you. Counted as your own. A person theoretically could be justified by works but NO ONE past present or future is able to do that perfectly and if it isn't perfect, no justification. Because of the sin nature we are born with, it cannot be done. That is WHY Jesus did it FOR those who believe.

Kenny'sID · Nov 7, 2019

Dave L said:
It's for the wrong reason. Good people do not need law, only the wicked.

You haven't answered my question/request. Is it unfair of me to simply ask you to back up your claim with the bible or should you be able to do that, no problem?

anna ~ grace · Nov 7, 2019

@Bible Highlighter

Just wanted to say, good work, friend.

God bless you, and keep searching, and finding! Well done.

Dave L · Nov 7, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
You haven't answered my question/request. Is it unfair of me to simply ask you to back up your claim with the bible or should you be able to do that, no problem?

Make it clear and I'll try to answer. What's your question?

Bible Highlighter · Nov 7, 2019

reformed05 said:
Justified does not have two meanings. When you are saved, you are justified. Counted as fully righteous by having Christ's righteousness IMPUTED to you. Counted as your own. A person theoretically could be justified by works but NO ONE past present or future is able to do that perfectly and if it isn't perfect, no justification. Because of the sin nature we are born with, it cannot be done. That is WHY Jesus did it FOR those who believe.

If you were to read my OP, I explain that Provisional Atonement is applied by the two aspects of salvation called "God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior," and "Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life." Eternal Security Proponents, and or Non-Eternal Security Belief Alone Proponents try to say that the word "justified" in relation to works is not referring to salvation in James 2:24. Yet, the same word "justified" is used in relation to "faith" in the same very verse. No doubt Belief Alone Proponents do back flips over the idea that we are justified by faith for salvation. Yet, in James 2:24, are they saying that this is not the case? Some try to say that we are "justified before men" and not God when they talk about James 2:24. But we know that James 2:24 is also referring to being justified by faith, too. So their interpretation does not work.

Anyways, if you have a different interpretation on James 2:24, then please feel free to share it. So far, I see James 2:24 saying we are justified (declared "just" or saved) by works AND faith.

Also, 1 John 1:7. It says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. What is walking in the light? According to 1 John 2:9-11 (using other words), walking in the light is loving your brother. So we have to love our brother in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin. 1 John 3:15 says if we hate our brother we are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Paul says that loving your neighbor will automatically fulfill the Moral Law (like: Do not kill, do not steal, do not commit adultery, etc.) (See Romans 13:8-10). Jesus says we can commit adultery just by looking upon another in lust (Matthew 5:28-30). This means that if we are lusting after others, we are not loving our neighbor. Even Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that to love GOD and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). Loving one's neighbor involves helping the poor beat up person on the side of the road (Luke 10:25-37). Hence, why those believers who did not help the poor were told to go away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46). Is loving the brethren, and or the poor just something automatic to all true believers or do they have to actively work at doing that?

Dave L · Nov 7, 2019

reformed05 said:
DID I NOT JUST SAY THAT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR WORTHINESS? THAT GOD'S REASONS ARE IN HIS MIND.

But if it is because of any goodness, you share in his glory.

Dave L · Nov 7, 2019

reformed05 said:
you are assuming too much when you assume how I think salvation works. You have no idea how I think salvation works. Certainly my statement that God doesn't FORCE anyone to be saved would not tell you.
You have indicated that you are a Calvinist. I am too though I prefer Reformed because Calvinist cm be somewhat misleading. You appear to possibly not rightly understand Calvinism because it does not teach that God saves people against their will or that He FORCES some people to be saved and forced others to not be saved. That is exactly what those who oppose Reformed Theology accuse us of believing and why they hate it so much. Maybe you should pick up some R.C. Sproul books.

I can tell by your questions you might not be Reformed in the traditional sense.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 7, 2019

Gracia Singh said:
@Bible Highlighter

Just wanted to say, good work, friend.

God bless you, and keep searching, and finding! Well done.

While we do not agree on everything in the Bible, we can at least generally agree that a believer needs Sanctification as a part of the salvation process.

Anyways, thank you for your kind words.
May the Lord reward you for your kindness.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 7, 2019

Dave L said:
But if it is because of any goodness, you share in his glory.

Matthew 5:16.

Kenny'sID · Nov 7, 2019

Dave L said:
Make it clear and I'll try to answer. What's your question?

I did, very clear. What's also clear is you'd rather not answer else you wold have already, so whatever you want to do is fine with me.

Dave L · Nov 7, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Matthew 5:16.

Paul says if love is your motive, the law is unnecessary. It only makes the unregenerate act like Christians = hypocrisy.

Dave L · Nov 7, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
I did, very clear. What's also clear is you'd rather not answer else you wold have already, so whatever you want to do is fine with me.

I'll answer when you provide the question. I do not understand why we cannot be specific.

Kenny'sID · Nov 7, 2019

Dave L said:
I'll answer when you provide the question. I do not understand why we cannot be specific.

I was specific, and I don't understand why, well...never mind

Always the same with the touchy questions, like pulling teeth

Dave L · Nov 7, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
I was specific, and I don't understand why, well...never mind

Always the same with the touchy questions, like pulling teeth

It's not important?

The Four Aspects of Salvation.

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