The Four Aspects of Salvation.

[Dave L]

No reason at all PERIOD is the definition of arbitrary. Do you just like to strain out knats and swallow camels?

I think you know what the Reformed position is.

 

[reformed05]

If it was anything at all in us, it would be;


“For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.” 1 Corinthians 1:26–29 (KJV 1900)

Not sure what you are saying. The Bible quote above to me is saying it is nothing in us but you said if it WAS something that is how it would read. Typo?

 

[reformed05]

I think you know what the Reformed position is.

Oh thank you so much. I have other things to do and must get busy.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The NC is based on Love. Here's how;


“And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

See post #107.

 

[Job3315]

I don't think you understand what I mean. We are to follow God's commandments. I never said we shouldn't. What I am trying to explain to you is that theres a point in your walk with Christ when you realize He truly loves you and you follow Him out of honor and love instead of fear of losing your salvation because you didn't "do enough works of faith". You come into a place where the works of faith and being like Jesus just comes naturally and it flows through you; from a place of rest. You are who you are because you have so much communion with God that you know your identity in Christ because theres no more condemnation to those who are in Christ.

Like I mentioned before, maybe you are a first born (they tend to have lots of responsibilities being in charge of younger siblings) or maybe you had some distance with your father that made you have a stronghold where you think you need to please God. But the point of the Bible is for us to understand He still speaks, He loves us, He wants His creation back and from now on He will be our God and we will be His people and He will guide us so we can Know Him and know ourselves.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't think you understand what I mean.

I don't think you understand what I meant by those verses.
You say Jesus loves you even if we do not keep His commandments.
But Jesus says the exact opposite of what you are saying here.
Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
Proverbs 8:17 says that God loves those who love Him.
How do we love Jesus?
Again, repeat. John 14:15. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments.
So if one loves Jesus, they keep His commandments. That is how you are to show that you love Jesus. Jesus said in John 15:10 that if you keep His commandments, you abide in his love. Do you think you can abide in Christ's love by not keeping His commandments? If so, then you are in violation of what Jesus said.

We are to follow God's commandments. I never said we shouldn't.

You said, I quote:

"Do you believe God loves you? If you do, why? Because He demonstrated it or because you are behaving "well"?" ~ Job3315​

Again, Jesus (Who is GOD) says if you love me, keep my commandments.
Your question implies that you cannot love Jesus by keeping His commandments (Which is a direct violation of Jesus's words in John 14:15, and John 15:10).

You also said, I quote:

"He didn't save us to for us to "become good"" ~ Job3315​

This implies that if we are not saved to become good, then we can be bad or evil and disobey God's commands. To become good, one has to keep God's commandments.

What I am trying to explain to you is that theres a point in your walk with Christ when you realize He truly loves you and you follow Him out of honor and love instead of fear of losing your salvation because you didn't "do enough works of faith".

Jesus says,
"Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (Matthew 10:28).

Paul says if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). How does Jesus say we are to love Him? By keeping His commandment (John 14:15). You just seem to think Jesus just loves you anyways, when that is not what Jesus says. Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

As for your comment on not doing enough works of faith in relation to salvation:
In the Parable of the Talents, those who were faithful over a little were told to enter the joy of their Lord (Matthew 25:21). Yet, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30).

You come into a place where the works of faith and being like Jesus just comes naturally and it flows through you; from a place of rest.

There are approximately 450 commands in the New Testament. Many of them are very specific and you would not automatically do all of them without studying them and learning to apply them to your life.

You are who you are because you have so much communion with God that you know your identity in Christ because theres no more condemnation to those who are in Christ.

Romans 8:1 says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Like I mentioned before, maybe you are a first born (they tend to have lots of responsibilities being in charge of younger siblings) or maybe you had some distance with your father that made you have a stronghold where you think you need to please God.

Nope. That's not it. I am just reading and believing the Bible in what it plainly says.

But the point of the Bible is for us to understand He still speaks, He loves us,

I believe there are degrees of love that God has.
For example: God so loved the world (John 3:16), that does not mean everyone will be saved. Proverbs 8:17 says God loves those who love Him.
Jesus says we abide in His love if we keep His commandments (see again: John 15:10).

He wants His creation back and from now on He will be our God and we will be His people and He will guide us so we can Know Him and know ourselves.

"And they shall be my people, and I will be their God: And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good,..." (Jeremiah 32:38-41).

 

[Job3315]

I don't think you understand what I meant by those verses.
You say Jesus loves you even if we do not keep His commandments.
But Jesus says the exact opposite of what you are saying here.
Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
Proverbs 8:17 says that God loves those who love Him.
How do we love Jesus?
Again, repeat. John 14:15. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments.
So if one loves Jesus, they keep His commandments. That is how you are to show that you love Jesus. Jesus said in John 15:10 that if you keep His commandments, you abide in his love. Do you think you can abide in Christ's love by not keeping His commandments? If so, then you are in violation of what Jesus said.



You said, I quote:

"Do you believe God loves you? If you do, why? Because He demonstrated it or because you are behaving "well"?" ~ Job3315​

Again, Jesus (Who is GOD) says if you love me, keep my commandments.
Your question implies that you cannot love Jesus by keeping His commandments (Which is a direct violation of Jesus's words in John 14:15, and John 15:10).

You also said, I quote:

"He didn't save us to for us to "become good"" ~ Job3315​

This implies that if we are not saved to become good, then we can be bad or evil and disobey God's commands. To become good, one has to keep God's commandments.



Jesus says,
"Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (Matthew 10:28).

Paul says if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). How does Jesus say we are to love Him? By keeping His commandment (John 14:15). You just seem to think Jesus just loves you anyways, when that is not what Jesus says. Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

As for your comment on not doing enough works of faith in relation to salvation:
In the Parable of the Talents, those who were faithful over a little were told to enter the joy of their Lord (Matthew 25:21). Yet, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30).



There are approximately 450 commands in the New Testament. Many of them are very specific and you would not automatically do all of them without studying them and learning to apply them to your life.



Romans 8:1 says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."



Nope. That's not it. I am just reading and believing the Bible in what it plainly says.



I believe there are degrees of love that God has.
For example: God so loved the world (John 3:16), that does not mean everyone will be saved. Proverbs 8:17 says God loves those who love Him.
Jesus says we abide in His love if we keep His commandments (see again: John 15:10).



"And they shall be my people, and I will be their God: And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good,..." (Jeremiah 32:38-41).

If you don't believe Jesus love is enough to transform you and that THAT understanding of His truth in you is what leads you to repentance so you can follow Him because you are in awe of what He did for you and that having a relationship with Him transforms you into His image convincing you of your need of more of Him, then I don't know the gospel you are believing, but that is not Jesus.

Jesus came and said, "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand". It was like Him saying, "repent, change the way you think, because what you thought God The Father wanted is not what you are doing, follow me", and then He showed us the Father's will through His actions and heart. The deeper understanding of Jesus and His finished work on the cross compels us to be more like Him and live a life free of sin; making us want to follow His commandments, but following them is not a set of rules but a new identity in us. Religion is driven by fear, identity is driven by love; its us to decide.

All I keep getting from you is like being in the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and instead of doing evil you jump to another branch of the part that is good instead of getting uprooted from that tree of "works for salvation" and getting grafted into the Tree of Life (Jesus Himself) who guides you to all truth and understanding as to why we follow Him; to reveal God's glory.

I really don't know how else I can explain it and I feel we are in a loop. My message has been the same, but like the funny church sign says, "Jesus, Good. Sin, Bad". I'll just let you be and let you figure it out on your own.

 

[JLB777]

When I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

#2. Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried, and had risen again three days later on your behalf, and accepting Jesus as your Savior, and seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer. This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work (because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly applied Justification and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).


Conclusion:

Justification, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are justified, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement), then we will be glorified.

Great thread topic.

Desperately needs to be explained thoroughly.

False teachers will certainly push back on this.




JLB

 

[JLB777]

This is based on legalism, not grace.

Please explain why you think confessing Jesus as Lord our your life, and obeying Him as Lord, is legalism?


JLB

 

[JLB777]

If you don't believe Jesus love is enough to transform you and that THAT understanding of His truth in you is what leads you to repentance so you can follow Him because you are in awe of what He did for you and that having a relationship with Him transforms you into His image convincing you of your need of more of Him, then I don't know the gospel you are believing, but that is not Jesus.

Here are some scriptures that teach us what we must do, as born again Christians in order to be fruitful followers of Christ Jesus.


The first and most important thing is to remain in Him.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6


Notice that it is God the Father Himself that removes unfruitful branches that are “in Christ” because they are unfruitful.

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

Those who are “in Christ” who do not remain “in Him”, are cast into the fire and burned.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.



“They” = branches that were once “in Him” then they were no longer in Him, and were gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.


Here is how this same Apostle John instructs us to remain “in Christ”. -


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

• he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

JLB

 

[Dave L]

Please explain why you think confessing Jesus as Lord our your life, and obeying Him as Lord, is legalism?


JLB

It's what save people do. If you think doing it will save you, you turned it into a magical incantation.

 

[JLB777]

It's what save people do. If you think doing it will save you, you turned it into a magical incantation.

Only those who confess Jesus as Lord, will be saved.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is called obeying the Gospel.

Obeying the truth through the Spirit.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:22-23

• Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit

That’s why the Gospel is called the power of God unto salvation.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16



That’s what grace is; The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Grace.




JLB

 

[JLB777]

It's what save people do. If you think doing it will save you, you turned it into a magical incantation.

I asked you to explain.

Yes saved people obey the Lord.

Please explain why you think obeying the Lord Jesus Christ is legalism.


Please explain why you think confessing Jesus as Lord our your life, and obeying Him as Lord, is legalism?


JLB

 

[Dave L]

Only those who confess Jesus as Lord, will be saved.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is called obeying the Gospel.

Obeying the truth through the Spirit.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:22-23

• Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit

That’s why the Gospel is called the power of God unto salvation.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16



That’s what grace is; The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Grace.




JLB

People confess Jesus because they are saved. Confessing him in order to be saved turns God into a bully and you into the guy "saying uncle" to earn his favor.

 

[Dave L]

I asked you to explain.

Yes saved people obey the Lord.

Please explain why you think obeying the Lord Jesus Christ is legalism.


Please explain why you think confessing Jesus as Lord our your life, and obeying Him as Lord, is legalism?


JLB

It's legalism if you think obedience precedes salvation. It always follows salvation.

 

[JLB777]

People confess Jesus because they are saved.

People must confess Jesus as Lord in order to be saved.


For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is what repenting is, turn to God n submission to Jesus Christ as Lord.


This is how we obey the Gospel.


This is how we obey the truth through the Spirit, in order to become born again.




JLB

 

[Dave L]

People must confess Jesus as Lord in order to be saved.


For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10


with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


This is what repenting is, turn to God n submission to Jesus Christ as Lord.


This is how we obey the Gospel.


This is how we obey the truth through the Spirit, in order to become born again.




JLB

They must be saved before they can believe and confess Jesus.

 

[JLB777]

It's legalism if you think obedience precedes salvation. It always follows salvation.

Only those who obey are saved.

Only those who obey are justified.



But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16



For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

• what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

JLB

 

[Dave L]

Only those who obey are saved.

Only those who obey are justified.



But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16



For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

• what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

JLB

Obedience before salvation = works. Obedience after salvation = grace.

 

[JLB777]

They must be saved before they can believe and confess Jesus.

This is heresy.


You must believe and confess in order to be saved.


For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10


How in the world can a person become saved without believing?


Please post the scripture that says those who don’t believe are saved.




JLB