The fallacy of saying religion causes violence.

durangodawood said:

Revolutionary communism wasnt anti-Christian for the sake of atheism. It was for the sake of the all-consuming ideology of revolutionary communism, for the workers paradise basically.

The comparison that makes sense to me is ideology vs ideology. Like Christianity vs revolutionary communism. Or Islam vs Ayn Rand capitalism. The latter in each comparison are atheist, but only in the sense of clearing out the ideological competition.

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And why was atheism so important to Marx, Lenin and Stalin, then? I don't think it was simply because Christianity stood in the way of what they thought was economic and political progress ...

Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

Albion said:

I didn't invoke absolute numbers! I used a very round figure but one that is based upon well-established estimates. Would it make Marxism look a lot more attractive if we cut the estimated number of its victims by, let's say, half--down to 50 million dead!?

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Yes you were using absolute numbers for your comparison. How precise those numbers are is totally beside the point.

durangodawood said:

Revolutionary communism wasnt anti-Christian for the sake of atheism. It was for the sake of the all-consuming ideology of revolutionary communism, for the workers paradise basically.

The comparison that makes sense to me is ideology vs ideology. Like Christianity vs revolutionary communism. Or Islam vs Ayn Rand capitalism. The latter in each comparison are atheist, but only in the sense of clearing out the ideological competition.

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There is one caveat I will grant you from the outset in any talk we might have about the efficacy or non-efficacy of atheism, and that is that I think Christians probably would be better served to simply focus on the state of any other person being 'anti-christian' in his/her social composure rather than on a specific competitive ideology or metaphysical position (or lack thereof).

In other words, Christians probably shouldn't clamor so much over the presence or growth of atheists or 'nones' in society as much as whether or not various individuals in society firmly stand and politically claim a status of "anti-christ."

If you're a bad person, you'll use whatever ideology you have (theistic or not) to justify doing bad things. This is why these 'X Evil Person was a Christian/atheist/etc.' arguments are all pointless.

Strathos said:

If you're a bad person, you'll use whatever ideology you have (theistic or not) to justify doing bad things. This is why these 'X Evil Person was a Christian/atheist/etc.' arguments are all pointless.

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If you are human, you'll use whatever ...

No one ever thinks they are the bad guy.

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:

I could also point out the anti-Christian hostility of the majority of Nazis in Hitler's circle (including Hitler himself), the million Polish Catholics killed in the Holocaust, the clergy and nuns who were killed in the camps or just shot, etc.

Indeed, Hitler said that Christianity was "absurdity" and "humbug"; Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's Propoaganda Minister, wrote that Hitler "hated Christianity" in his diaries, which was confirmed by the Table Talks, private transcripts of Hitler's meetings with some confidantes.

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But Christianity enabled Hitler. The Nazi's co-opted Christian belief. Anti-semitism had been ingrained in Europeans for centuries. The Catholic and Lutheran churches taught that Jews were a cursed people who were responsible for Jesus's execution. Christianity fertilized the soil in which the Holocaust could germinate. Whatever happens to Jews is God's will. That's the role religion plays in such atrocities. It puts a veneer of godliness on crimes against humanity.

Here's one example of how the Nazi's used religion. My father was in Germany during the war. He found one of these as a souvenir. It's the standard-issue belt buckle from a Wehrmach uniform:



Gott mit uns. God is with us.

jayem said:

But Christianity enabled Hitler. The Nazi's co-opted Christian belief. Anti-semitism had been ingrained in Europeans for centuries. The Catholic and Lutheran churches taught that Jews were a cursed people who were responsible for Jesus's execution. Christianity fertilized the soil in which the Holocaust could germinate. Whatever happens to Jews is God's will. That's the role religion plays in such atrocities. It puts a veneer of godliness on crimes against humanity.

Here's one example of how the Nazi's used religion. My father was in Germany during the war. He found one of these as a souvenir. It's the standard-issue belt buckle from a Wehrmach uniform:

View attachment 266327

Gott mit uns. God is with us.

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But what? If the previous poster's points are true, and yours are also true, then what does that mean? It means we all need to do some more intensive research and stop blurting out a bunch of half-baked truisms that don't actually capture the full reality, especially where the last 100 years of World History are concerned.

durangodawood said:

I understand that atheism was a significant component of marxist ideology, but its nowhere near center stage. The real motivating element was the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution. Absent that, there'd be no "for atheism" the way we'd hear a crusader cry "for Jesus!" You give atheism too much credit. Its not got much power.

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Marx was a student of philosophy and Feuerbach. He applied that philosophy to other spheres, such as the social and economic, as a means to an end. The overthrow of capitalism was merely a preparatory stage. Atheism wasn't the only ingredient in Marx's thought, but it was very essential and it was a deeper source than a dislike for capitalism. In the U.S. we often get the economic narrative, but the Marxist programme was much more comprehensive.

zippy2006 said:

Marx was a student of philosophy and Feuerbach. He applied that philosophy to other spheres, such as the social and economic, as a means to an end. The overthrow of capitalism was merely a preparatory stage. Atheism wasn't the only ingredient in Marx's thought, but it was very essential and it was a deeper source than a dislike for capitalism. In the U.S. we often get the economic narrative, but the Marxist programme was much more comprehensive.

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Marx himself was one guy who didnt kill anyone.

But these regimes that did kill millions were moved idealistically by the workers revolution, and more realistically, by the advance of an almighty superstate unimpeded by competition from other parties and, of course, from religion.

2PhiloVoid said:

Quackduck, I don't you don't intentionally mean to poke at all Christians across the board since we both know that some folks who are Christian are fairly nice folks. You might want to consider that your comments above reflect an informal fallacy known as the 'Fallacy of Composition,' and if you're interested in being relevant, even logical, you'll need recognize this fact.

Peace.

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Of course there are good, decent Christians. Our three daughters are Christians, the eldest an Anglican Priest, they are good people, moderate in their views, not Biblical literalists, thank goodness. It is the extremist Christians I can't stand, those who threaten people who don't see it their way with the fires of the mythical hell.