What would you lose if Christianity were not true?

InterestedAtheist said:

giving up Christianity can have some very positive emotional benefits,

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Anyone benefits from leaving behind artificial strictures that are not good.

(of course there are certain limits/rules that are good for anyone/everyone, but there are plenty of artificial limits are not good for anyone)

It's also the norm for all people, any human, that there are other, more, new things a person has never discovered yet, of course.
(If that isn't at all interesting, then you'd be in a key way a 'disinterested atheist', yes? But if it is interesting to you, then you could be 'interested atheist' in the key human way: truly interested in things you don't already think or know.)

I left Christianity, and found what I thought for years where gains. They were indeed gains -- but they are the enjoyable gains of growing up with good health and normal American freedom, aging from a young teen into adulthood -- all the fun things.

Not exactly the ultimate things. Just normal human things of coming into one's own abilities and strengths and opportunities of normal life in a pleasant nation to live in -- a lot of fun, altogether.

It's not news that life is a lot of fun for a typical American young adult that doesn't get too preoccupied with what they don't yet own, but instead is having normal adventures.

But there's more to life than only dancing, meeting wonderful new friends, laughing and talking for hours into the early morning, going for bike rides in celebration late at night, and jumping into natural pools, discussing philosophy, so awake and full of energy that the world seems only a fantastic place and pure electric enjoyment. And Love, relationships, friendships, romance.

Good stuff.

But...there are even better things.

It's that I didn't get self-satisfied at that point that I continued to seek out more, and was able to learn from any source. I didn't assume or believe or think that whatever I'd seen in churches had to be identical or even close to what Christ said, necessarily. Same for whatever doctrine. Perhaps in a way I was fortunate to have visited a variety of denominations, so that I got the insight that typically I was only hearing an opinion when I heard a doctrine in whatever church, as it didn't line up with the other churches. I learned not to imagine a doctrine was some reliable guide to what Christ said. But I still became atheist on the intellectual level, because it's cool and fun to be your own boss and to feel freedom. But....that's actually simply the process of normal human growing up, from a young teen into an adult. That's not some magical breakthrough into freedom, except the normal universal freedom of coming into your own.

When one finds the world is amazing and fun and full of excitement. That's how it is -- it's always been that way. It's that way for many young Christian adults also.

Not exactly news to many of us.

Eventually I found out though that a lot of the fun stuff gets boring after a while. Now I still have all that freedom and enjoyment of life still (even well into middle age at this point, still enjoying life on the being-alive-in-this-wonderful-adventure side of life), but I have what's considerably better also. Both.

To me, I see it that you are pointing to the good and normal benefits of freedom. But I know those are only normal good things, and there are even better things.

InterestedAtheist said:

Second, "that's the way to gain in life, about anything". What is?

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To seek out better things you don't have yet -- in any area of life.

Sure, for anyone: some good things anyone wants like better food, better relationships, fun adventures, art, music, late nights full of enjoyment and such -- all the good stuff any 25 year old wants -- to find not only those, but more.

There is more to life than only good food and good relationships and great adventures and a lot of fun, all the good things we ought to try to find some of in our 20s, early 30s.

There are wonderful things better than only these good things.

InterestedAtheist said:

You think that someone saying they are happy to agree with what's true while pointing out and explaining things that are false is "reaching an impasse"?

Let me return the compliment, Philo.
If you ever come to a realisation that Christianity isn't true and need someone to talk to, feel free to contact me.

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How about if I just say there are some beliefs held by my fellow Christians that I don't also share in the way that they do................................... Not that it would surprise anybody really, though.

Halbhh said:

To seek out better things you don't have yet -- in any area of life.

Sure, for anyone: some good things anyone wants like better food, better relationships, fun adventures, art, music, late nights full of enjoyment and such -- all the good stuff any 25 year old wants -- to find not only those, but more.

There is more to life than only good food and good relationships and great adventures and a lot of fun, all the good things we ought to try to find some of in our 20s, early 30s.

There are wonderful things better than only these good things.

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Two points.
First: what you have here, Halbhh, is a false dilemma. "Experience the wonders of a deep and meaningful life through Christ" and "Pursue worldly pleasures only" are not the only two alternatives. Your implication that you either become a Christian or think that life is nothing but "good food, good relationships and great adventures" is false. Maslow's Hierachy of Needs is a good way to represent it, and there are a multitude of ways to move upwards on it, not all of them involving belief in Jesus.

And that brings us to the second point: I'm not a Christian, so nothing you say about Jesus applies to me. If Jesus was and is the son of God, we should all follow Him. But I don't believe that he was, so your argument doesn't work.

InterestedAtheist said:

First: what you have here, Halbhh, is a false dilemma. "Experience the wonders of a deep and meaningful life through Christ" and "Pursue worldly pleasures only" are not the only two alternatives.

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Sorry my other post was long, but it's a big topic. It said:

Halbhh said:

Eventually I found out though that a lot of the fun stuff gets boring after a while. Now I still have all that freedom and enjoyment of life still (even well into middle age at this point, still enjoying life on the being-alive-in-this-wonderful-adventure side of life), but I have what's considerably better also. Both.

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Both, see. It's indeed not one vs. the other for the best things.

For, less good stuff, like drunkenness, promiscuity, etc, things not so great..that's indeed a choice, an either/or.

But for the best things, like friends, adventures, love, excitement, dancing, nature, and on and on, it's a both/and.

About your own curiosity or desire for better things, that's up to you, yes. We could only try to give you a sense something better exists.

InterestedAtheist said:

There are certainly a number of angles these questions could be looked at, and it may well be a matter of opinion, depending on a person's viewpoint.But does it matter, in the end? No matter which is more frightening or more comforting, the question is what's true.

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You have got quite the burden if you're claiming that truth is on your side.

InterestedAtheist said:

I wouldn't disagree with you on that. But does it matter? Not your cup of tea, perhaps. But remember why I posted it: to show that there can be a very definite benefit to becoming an atheist. Not that this should count against the question of whether or not it's true, but the benefit is there for some people. You have told me that this kind of thing doesn't appeal to you, and I understand that. But the overall point remains: giving up Christianity can have some very positive emotional benefits, and there are many people who can give evidence to that effect.

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Yeah, toxic Christianity is definitely a thing. A sort of Christianized atheism is almost certainly healthier (and possibly even safer) than a hateful, self-destructive form of Christianity, though I'm still not sure why it's relevant at all. Nobody in this thread has admitted to struggling with abusive churches or overwhelming fear of damnation or anything along those lines.

Tinker Grey said:

The update may or may not be worth it, but here is an approximation of what I wrote and lost:

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Is it alright if I ask you a few questions? Silmarien pointed me to your post and I've never really heard an account such as yours. My curiosity is piqued.

This. Very much this.

The end of my Christian life was preceded by a decade long attempt to form a coherent theology that accounted for reality as I perceived it while maintaining Christianity in a recognizable way.

At some point, though I didn't articulate it this way until later, I recognized what for me is a fundamental axiom of thought: All axioms are inductive -- including this one.

What I mean is that we adopt things as axioms because those are things that we've experienced as being true.

The axioms that were required for me to be a Christian lacked that inductive-ness. For me, there is no experience of Jesus being real, right here, right now; there is no experience of this person being 100% divine and 100% human; there is no experience of trinity, heaven, hell, nor of any god at all. Any experience I may have thought I had was a "one-off". One cannot adduce the truth a proposed axiom from a one-off. Induction doesn't work that way.

Without this induction, belief in a proposed axiom is not justified.

(This, then, was the last sentence.)

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I'm just going to machine-gun some questions at you. Don't feel obliged to answer all of them.

1. What is your educational background?
2. What Christian denomination do you hail from?
3. What was your theological education?
4. How do you currently understand the grounding of axioms with induction?
5. Did you have any recurrent experiences as a Christian that were not "one-off"?

There are multiple reasons I find your post interesting, but I will just name a few. I've always been interested in foundational axioms; I wrote my final metaphysics paper on axioms, induction, and intuition in Aristotle's Metaphysics and Posterior Analytics. I am currently working my way through John Henry Newman's Essay in Aid of a Grammar of Assent, which is a rather different approach to foundational propositional assent, though no less rigorous. I am also interested in religious experience and more empirical approaches to religious conversion and growth, much of which comes from the Eastern Fathers.

My formal educational background is computer science, philosophy, and theology, and all three converge on logical, rational, analytic thought. These days I am desperately trying to find a more synthetic and experiential balance, but alas, it is hard to escape one's education.

Peace,
Zip

Silmarien said:

You have got quite the burden if you're claiming that truth is on your side.

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Not at all. You and I believe the same thing: that the physical universe exists. We live on a planet, it orbits a sun, the sky is blue, fire is hot. That's all I believe, and I don't have to prove it to you because you already accept it.
You, on the other hand, believe that there is an invisible, all-powerful, all-knowing, eternal entity called "God", as portrayed in the Christian Bible. That's "quite the burden".

Silmarien said:

Yeah, toxic Christianity is definitely a thing. A sort of Christianized atheism is almost certainly healthier (and possibly even safer) than a hateful, self-destructive form of Christianity, though I'm still not sure why it's relevant at all. Nobody in this thread has admitted to struggling with abusive churches or overwhelming fear of damnation or anything along those lines.

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Have you asked them?

BigV said:

If this life is all there is, and you followed a Christian lifestyle, what would be your loss if this life is the only existence we have?

Just to elaborate, I know Christians who claim they would lose nothing, but I think it's a contradiction, because same Christians claim they have given ALL to Christ also, like the hymn says... "I surrender all.."

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Wouldn’t a Christian have lost the opportunity to go off stealin’ and killin’?

I’m reliably informed that without God ‘nothing matters’ so isn’t that what ever Christian would be doing?

Ir is God not needed for living a good life?

BigV said:

Well, consider that Jesus was also the Old Testament God, unless you are a Gnostic. Reading the Old Testament, there is plenty of killing and God sanctioned violence.

Secondly, there are always consequences for doing immoral things. Christians in the Nazi Germany may have felt that their anti-Semitism is not going to be punishable, but ultimately it was. Not punished by Gods, but still, they ended up paying the price. You may counter that this is not a good system, because the person killing Jews may have lived to the old age in Argentina or in the US or other country that gave them safe harbor, but the same can be said about a Christian morality, where a child rapist can 'trust in Jesus' on their deathbed where as their atheist victims end up spending an eternity in hell.

Lastly, there are plenty of consequences for immoral behavior and the reasons for why we do what we do or don't do what we don't do has very little to do with beliefs in Gods. And our morality does change with circumstances. Perhaps you'd never steal, but faced with a food shortage and a starving family and no means to pay for food, you may become a thief for the betterment of your family, especially if you find that the food is being wasted anyways.

Imagine a hypothetical scenario where the mega wealthy hoard all the food and the poor are unable to obtain it and must starve to death. Is it moral to rob the rich of their food then, in order to survive? You would throw the Bible out of the window if you were one of the poor. So save the "Christians are so very moral" for someone who is gullible enough to believe this.

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All of what you've written above is a garbage post. I find it kind of detestable overall, in my estimation, and it should probably be called a "com-post." Of course, a "con-post" would be a better fit, though.

zippy2006 said:

Is it alright if I ask you a few questions? Silmarien pointed me to your post and I've never really heard an account such as yours. My curiosity is piqued.



I'm just going to machine-gun some questions at you. Don't feel obliged to answer all of them.

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Well, I hope I don't disappoint you too much. I have little to no formal philosophical training.

1. What is your educational background?

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I have a CS and 2 EE degrees.

2. What Christian denomination do you hail from?

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I grew up Independent Fundamentalist. Ended up in a more generic evangelical churches. While most would identify with the 7 fundamentals, they probably couldn't enumerate them and would not identify as fundamentalist.

3. What was your theological education?

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Independent Fundamentalist private schooling in HS. Christian College. But as I was a CS major, I took only what was required in Bible classes (which I don't even recall at this point.)

4. How do you currently understand the grounding of axioms with induction?

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Pretty much as written. As noted, my training is limited. But to expound a little, one might consider (at least colloquially) that 1+1=2 is an axiom. A child may internalize 1+1=2 upon hearing it, but one does not know it until you observe it, understand the relationship between the statement and reality. As one ages, one realizes that one has never observed 1+1!=2. As one ages further (and has an inclination to think on these things), one might apply caveats: E.g., 1 fork and 1 knife is 2 objects, more specifically, 2 utensils, but neither is the sum 2 forks nor 2 knives. One might add a light year to a tree, but only if the unit of measure is, I dunno, concepts.

5.Did you have any recurrent experiences as a Christian that were not "one-off"?

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Well, sure. I have emotions every day. I experience hunger, fatigue, etc. Back to 1+1=2, that's another experience I have everyday. I have not had non-one-off experiences that point to Christianity as true.

There are multiple reasons I find your post interesting, but I will just name a few. I've always been interested in foundational axioms; I wrote my final metaphysics paper on axioms, induction, and intuition in Aristotle's Metaphysics and Posterior Analytics. I am currently working my way through John Henry Newman's Essay in Aid of a Grammar of Assent, which is a rather different approach to foundational propositional assent, though no less rigorous. I am also interested in religious experience and more empirical approaches to religious conversion and growth, much of which comes from the Eastern Fathers.

My formal educational background is computer science, philosophy, and theology, and all three converge on logical, rational, analytic thought. These days I am desperately trying to find a more synthetic and experiential balance, but alas, it is hard to escape one's education.

Peace,
Zip

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Well, I can't comment on most of that though I find it interesting. I keep thinking I ought to find some introductory level type books on the subjects you mention, but my google-fu is weak.

For reasons too irrelevant to this conversation, I don't read much any more, though I still want to. If you had a book to recommend, I might look into it.

@BigV Do you have a soul?

Larnievc said:

Wouldn’t a Christian have lost the opportunity to go off stealin’ and killin’?

I’m reliably informed that without God ‘nothing matters’ so isn’t that what ever Christian would be doing?

Ir is God not needed for living a good life?

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True -- Christians can't disobey Christ's instruction Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets. without repenting, and expect that to be ok (though some don't realize that yet). We understand that only God is competent to judge souls, and that He will resurrect all that have lived and died to face an accounting (and thus every innocent that has ever died will live again....), and there will be perfect, fair, impartial Justice, but also Mercy and Grace for very many, through Christ. (for instance one can learn about the impartial and fair justice coming in Romans chapter 2)

According to the 'Teacher', Jesus the Christ, one could live a seemingly quite successful life in worldly terms here without God, without His way.

Though mere abundance of money and status is an emptiness by our standards we experience as Christians: we have so much more than just food and luxuries.

Consider how impoverished one is ultimately if disregarding others while accumulating money, status, sex partners, stuff -- that less than truly satisfying 'abundance' the simple of the world think is so good.

Below an example of having 'it all' (the shallow sense) here and now. We may already sense this isn't even really that great here and now perhaps (some can), and it helps to consider what it will feel like at the end of life to have merely the shallow abundance, when one is in their last moments -- will it seem so good without the "love one another" Christ commanded as our primary goal -- is accumulation of wealth and status and indulgences as good as love? --

13 Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”

14 Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” 15 Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.”

16 And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. 17 He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’

18 “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. 19 And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.” ’

20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’

21 “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”
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This temporary life can end any day for anyone, and will you really have found what is truly good before your last moments? Kindness and love, and true charity? Will one turn to the one who makes our life new, and tells us "love your neighbor as yourself" -- if so, that is the real wealth, the true abundance, both here/now and later. But notice, even here and now, it's already the true wealth, the real good life. I decided to put what Jesus taught to the test -- do as He said to do. I found out it works far better than even my most optimistic moment of guessing.

Tinker Grey said:

Well, I hope I don't disappoint you too much. I have little to no formal philosophical training.

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Oh, no worries.

I have a CS and 2 EE degrees.

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Okay.

I grew up Independent Fundamentalist. Ended up in a more generic evangelical churches. While most would identify with the 7 fundamentals, they probably couldn't enumerate them and would not identify as fundamentalist.

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Okay, sure.

Independent Fundamentalist private schooling in HS. Christian College. But as I was a CS major, I took only what was required in Bible classes (which I don't even recall at this point.)

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I suppose I ought to ask how you viewed the idea of "faith" as a Christian?

Pretty much as written. As noted, my training is limited. But to expound a little, one might consider (at least colloquially) that 1+1=2 is an axiom. A child may internalize 1+1=2 upon hearing it, but one does not know it until you observe it, understand the relationship between the statement and reality. As one ages, one realizes that one has never observed 1+1!=2. As one ages further (and has an inclination to think on these things), one might apply caveats: E.g., 1 fork and 1 knife is 2 objects, more specifically, 2 utensils, but neither is the sum 2 forks nor 2 knives. One might add a light year to a tree, but only if the unit of measure is, I dunno, concepts.

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Yeah, that makes sense to me.

It's been awhile since I read Aristotle, but his view, as a scientist, was basically that induction takes place naturally insofar as we are exposed to reality. For example, a scientist who studies birds is, in the first place, expected to expose himself to birds (rather than merely to books or articles on birds, though this is important too). He watches birds, listens to them, studies them, begins to identify them, observes their relations to other birds and other animals, etc. Eventually once enough 'raw data' about birds is built up, he has a foundation with which to form inductive axioms. Indeed these inductive axioms will tend to form automatically in the mind even without intentional discursive thought. Once that happens the discursive (and deductive) approach can really begin.

It is rather difficult to transpose such a method to religion, but I think that is basically what Pascal was attempting to convey in the section of his Pensees that follows The Wager.

Well, sure. I have emotions every day. I experience hunger, fatigue, etc. Back to 1+1=2, that's another experience I have everyday. I have not had non-one-off experiences that point to Christianity as true.

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Okay; and your one-off argument seems sound to me, especially in our experience-rich culture.

Well, I can't comment on most of that though I find it interesting. I keep thinking I ought to find some introductory level type books on the subjects you mention, but my google-fu is weak.

For reasons too irrelevant to this conversation, I don't read much any more, though I still want to. If you had a book to recommend, I might look into it.

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I will continue to read your posts and if anything comes to mind I will let you know. I feel as if I don't know enough about you to recommend a book, but beyond that your particular 'difficulty' is very hard to answer. It strikes me as an important area for Christian philosophers and theologians to apply themselves, but it seems as if there are no easy answers. I suppose Newman's Essay is interesting and on point, but it is a difficult text. A number of academics with your difficulty converted through reading Thomas Aquinas and the Thomistic heritage. Thomas is exceptionally systematic with deep roots in philosophy and common sense, but that is a slow road and probably more of a philosopher's path.

In general the modern approach to life is rather fast, rather in-your-face. It likes to move quickly, it likes to change directions quickly, it likes to ask short questions and receive clean, practical answers. Like so many things, religion tends to be a slow process. It is an oak tree that takes time to put down deep roots and then grows imperceptibly each week. There are exceptions, but that strikes me as a modern difficulty with religion. An inductive foundation also takes time to solidify, regardless of the subject matter.

Given your background I will offer one piece of advice. Try not to view the human mind too much in terms of a computer. There are obvious and important similarities, but I believe that we computer scientists have a tendency to overestimate that particular model. The human mind is natural and organic with rather mysterious and unknown depths. It is not man-made; it has no instruction manual. Granted, I my be preaching to the choir, for to identify the importance of induction in the scheme of human rationality is already to take a step away from a traditional Turing model.

BigV said:

Do you listen to a yellow quantum whisperer?

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Not that I know of. Was that a yes or a no?

Sanoy said:

@BigV Do you have a soul?

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Soul...what do you mean by that?

dlamberth said:

Soul...what do you mean by that?

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Depends on him.