Can a just God be a dispensationalist?

William Lefranc said:

The promises that God gave Israel were fulfilled in Christ. Christ fills the scriptures from beginning to end. An Israel without Christ is like a shell without substance, a body without life. Jesus was the glory of Israel (Lk 2:32), and their only hope (Acts 28:20), yet they AS A NATION said a final no to God when they crucified their own Savior and Messiah.

Jesus said that the entire OT was about Him (Lk 24:25-27, 44-45, Jn 5:39-40).

The doors of salvation for the Jews have been opened for 2,000 years already, yet the majority haven't come to the Lord, who is the only way to salvation, because they hate Him, just like the rest of the world.

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Again, no one in this discussion has even suggested that the Jews can be saved without trusting Jesus. But what you are simply refusing to admit, is that the scriptures EXPLICITLY say that eventually, all Israel will repent and turn to Him with their whole hearts.

William Lefranc said:

I believe that Romans 9:6-8 is perfectly clear: Not all Israel is Israel which means the children of the flesh had no inheritance, just like today. Only the ones who believe in Christ were and will always be the children of the promise.

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This is EXACTLY the OPPOSITE of the explanation contained in Roams 9:9-29.

Biblewriter said:

Again, no one in this discussion has even suggested that the Jews can be saved without trusting Jesus. But what you are simply refusing to admit, is that the scriptures EXPLICITLY say that eventually, all Israel will repent and turn to Him with their whole hearts.

This is EXACTLY the OPPOSITE of the explanation contained in Roams 9:9-29.

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Romans 9:6–8 (NKJV)
6 "But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed."

The word of God is very clear. The children of the flesh were the majority of the nation that rejected their Messiah, while the children of the promise were the ones who believed in Jesus, were born again, and as such became sons of God by faith in Jesus Christ,

Galatians 3:26 (NASB95)
26 "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."

Do you deny what Romans 9:6-8 says? If so, how? If not, please provide scriptures that you think speaks about an Israel of the future, even though the old covenant ended when the temple was destroyed.

What covenant will you say this present-future secular and non-covenantal Israel will have with God in the future and why? Where in the NT do I read that there will be promises for a future Israel? Didn't Jesus redeem them already at the cross, but they rejected Him and later crucified Him?

Biblical proof:

1 Thessalonians 2:14–16 (NASB95)
14 "For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men,
16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost."

When did this wrath take place? (Mat. 23:34-39)

William Lefranc said:

Romans 9:6–8 (NKJV)
6 "But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed."

The word of God is very clear. The children of the flesh were the majority of the nation that rejected their Messiah, while the children of the promise were the ones who believed in Jesus, were born again, and as such became sons of God by faith in Jesus Christ,

Galatians 3:26 (NASB95)
26 "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."

Do you deny what Romans 9:6-8 says? If so, how? If not, please provide scriptures that you think speaks about an Israel of the future, even though the old covenant ended when the temple was destroyed.

What covenant will you say this present-future secular and non-covenantal Israel will have with God in the future and why? Where in the NT do I read that there will be promises for a future Israel? Didn't Jesus redeem them already at the cross, but they rejected Him and later crucified Him?

Biblical proof:

1 Thessalonians 2:14–16 (NASB95)
14 "For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men,
16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost."

When did this wrath take place? (Mat. 23:34-39)

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Repeating your allegation again and again proves nothing.

20 ... Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:20-21

Biblewriter said:

Repeating your allegation again and again proves nothing.

20 ... Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:20-21

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The restoration of all things means a New Heavens and New Earth where righteousness dwells (2Pe. 3:13). It means a new resurrection body for all believers unto the likeness of the glorified body of Jesus Christ (Phil. 3:20-21). It means the end of all wickedness.

It is not what you suggest.

I have been doing most to the work here while you have been ignoring what I have been posting.

I don't need to waste my time here anymore.

William Lefranc said:

The restoration of all things means a New Heavens and New Earth where righteousness dwells (2Pe. 3:13). It means a new resurrection body for all believers unto the likeness of the glorified body of Jesus Christ (Phil. 3:20-21). It means the end of all wickedness.

It is not what you suggest.

I have been doing most to the work here while you have been ignoring what I have been posting.

I don't need to waste my time here anymore.

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You are simply skipping over everything the scriptures explicitly say about what Messiah will do when He returns.

William Lefranc said:

It is not what you suggest.

I have been doing most to the work here while you have been ignoring what I have been posting.

I don't need to waste my time here anymore.

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You fail William Lefranc, to take in the whole of the Scriptures. It is of course your right to mold the Scriptures to your pre-determined view of things but that doesn't make it correct. The Bible very clearly describes a period of time when our Savior rules on the earth and a different time when Jehovah creates a new heaven and a new earth. The two are not the same.

thomas15 said:

You fail William Lefranc, to take in the whole of the Scriptures. It is of course your right to mold the Scriptures to your pre-determined view of things but that doesn't make it correct. The Bible very clearly describes a period of time when our Savior rules on the earth and a different time when Jehovah creates a new heaven and a new earth. The two are not the same.

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Look in the mirror and apply all that you say to yourself. Your futuristic beliefs are based on the wrong assumptions. You don't explain anything. You simply go on accusing me of being wrong.

Goodbye.

William Lefranc said:

Look in the mirror and apply all that you say to yourself. Your futuristic beliefs are based on the wrong assumptions. You don't explain anything. You simply go on accusing me of being wrong.

Goodbye.

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Your doctrines are based on your interpretations of the meanings of a relatively small number of scriptures, none of which actually states what you interpret them to mean. Our doctrine, on the other hand, is based on the explicit statements of a much larger number of scriptures.

William Lefranc said:

Look in the mirror and apply all that you say to yourself. Your futuristic beliefs are based on the wrong assumptions. You don't explain anything. You simply go on accusing me of being wrong.

Goodbye.

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When I look in the mirror I see a sinner saved by grace. The reason I know I'm a sinner and the reason I know I'm saved by grace is because the Bible very clearly teaches me this. That same Bible, the book that contains the promises of God for my salvation based on the shed blood of the risen Christ, that book also very clearly teaches me that there is a future on this earth for the now unbelieving Jews in the land that was promised them.

According to my theology: God keeps His promises.

Biblewriter said:

Your doctrines are based on your interpretations of the meanings of a relatively small number of scriptures, none of which actually states what you interpret them to mean. Our doctrine, on the other hand, is based on the explicit statements of a much larger number of scriptures.

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You are being too vague to know exactly what you are talking about. In my case, I have taken the time to explain Biblical principles that it has taken me 35 years to learn as I have submitted myself to the Holy Spirit who is the only perfect Teacher.

Things that I have said, you probably have never heard before. Unfortunately, you are not hungry enough to even begin to ask questions that could help you see the scriptures from the perspective of the finished work of redemption.

For the most part, all you have been doing is criticize my insight, but up to now, you have contributed very little to the discussion with your own thoughts.

Why don't you explain your views succinctly and let me have a shot to ask you some questions?

William Lefranc said:

You are being too vague to know exactly what you are talking about. In my case, I have taken the time to explain Biblical principles that it has taken me 35 years to learn as I have submitted myself to the Holy Spirit who is the only perfect Teacher.

Things that I have said, you probably have never heard before. Unfortunately, you are not hungry enough to even begin to ask questions that could help you see the scriptures from the perspective of the finished work of redemption.

For the most part, all you have been doing is criticize my insight, but up to now, you have contributed very little to the discussion with your own thoughts.

Why don't you explain your views succinctly and let me have a shot to ask you some questions?

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Actually, I have heard your false doctrine advanced again an again, and I am, frankly, tired or repeatedly explaining why it is a position of rank unbelief. God has made promises to the nation of Israel, and He made them even while He was warning them that He was going to judge them for their wickedness. He has never retracted these promises, and He has explicitly stated, again and aain, that He never will never retract them.

You interpret some statements in the New testament to mean that He has retracted these promises, even though not even one of them actually says what you claim it means. And when I have posted even NEW TESTAMENT statements that these promises still apply, and that they are irrevocable, you have simply ignored these explicit statements of scripture that plainly state the very opposite of the false doctrine you are promoting.

Biblewriter said:

Actually, I have heard your false doctrine advanced again an again, and I am, frankly, tired or repeatedly explaining why it is a position of rank unbelief. God has made promised to the nation of Israel, and He made them even while He was warning them that He was going to judge them for their wickedness. He has never retracted these promises, and He has explicitly stated, again and aain, that He never will never retract them.

You interpret some statements in the New testament to mean that He has retracted these promises, even though not even one of them actually says what you claim it means. And when I have posted even NEW TESTAMENT statements that these promises still apply, and that they are irrevocable, you have simply ignored these explicit statements of scripture that plainly state the very opposite of the false doctrine you are promoting.

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None of the things you said are true. I said that ALL the promises to Israel were FULFILLED in Christ. Care to deny that, or do you think God the Son left things undone?

This is the second and the last time I will ask this question, "Why don't you explain your views succinctly and let me have a shot to ask you some questions?"

William Lefranc said:

None of the things you said are true. I said that ALL the promises to Israel were FULFILLED in Christ. Care to deny that, or do you think God the Son left things undone?

This is the second and the last time I will ask this question, "Why don't you explain your views succinctly and let me have a shot to ask you some questions?"

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Actually, it is a blatant falsehood to claim that absolutely all of the promises to Israel have already been fulfilled. Here are some explicitly stated promises to Israel that have not yet been fulfilled.

In Ezekiel 36:10, "the mountains of Israel," with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around," (verse 4) are explicitly promised that they will again be inhabited by "all the house of Israel, all of it." And Ezekiel 47:13-23 goes so far as to precisely define the borders of the land in that day.

And Isaiah 4:3 explicitly says that "everyone who is recorded amnong the living" in Jerusalem "will be called holy."

And Jeremiah 30:20-25 says:

20 "Thus says the LORD: 'If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, 21 then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers. 22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.' " 23 Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 24 "Have you not considered what these people have spoken, saying, 'The two families which the LORD has chosen, He has also cast them off'? Thus they have despised My people, as if they should no more be a nation before them. 25 "Thus says the LORD: 'If My covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth, 26 then I will cast away the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his descendants to be rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will cause their captives to return, and will have mercy on them.' " Jeremiah 33:20-26

Biblewriter said:

Actually, it is a blatant falsehood to claim that absolutely all of the promises to Israel have already been fulfilled. Here are some explicitly stated promises to Israel that have not yet been fulfilled.

In Ezekiel 36:10, "the mountains of Israel," with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around," (verse 4) are explicitly promised that they will again be inhabited by "all the house of Israel, all of it." And Ezekiel 47:13-23 goes so far as to precisely define the borders of the land in that day.

And Isaiah 4:3 explicitly says that "everyone who is recorded amnong the living" in Jerusalem "will be called holy."

And Jeremiah 30:20-25 says:

20 "Thus says the LORD: 'If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, 21 then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers. 22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.' " 23 Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 24 "Have you not considered what these people have spoken, saying, 'The two families which the LORD has chosen, He has also cast them off'? Thus they have despised My people, as if they should no more be a nation before them. 25 "Thus says the LORD: 'If My covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth, 26 then I will cast away the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his descendants to be rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will cause their captives to return, and will have mercy on them.' " Jeremiah 33:20-26

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It is outright blasphemy to believe that God forgot to include Israel in Jesus Christ. Read Romans 9:6-8, Gal. 3:7-8, 16 and Eph. 2:11-22 and meditate on these scriptures for a year.

William Lefranc said:

It is outright blasphemy to believe that God forgot to include Israel in Jesus Christ. Read Romans 9:6-8, Gal. 3:7-8, 16 and Eph. 2:11-22 and meditate on these scriptures for a year.

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Most certainly, any member of the nation of Israel who turns to Christ in the present age will be saved.

But it is blatant unbelief to even pretend that God is not going to actually keep the promises He made to the ancient nation of Israel, that in a day that is still future, He will bring absolutely all of them back to their ancient homeland, and there, He will bring them to repentance so He can bless them there as a nation.

When you deny this, you are denying a very large number of explicitly stated scriptures in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

William Lefranc said:

It is outright blasphemy to believe that God forgot to include Israel in Jesus Christ. Read Romans 9:6-8, Gal. 3:7-8, 16 and Eph. 2:11-22 and meditate on these scriptures for a year.

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Your numerous attempts to get one of us that are trusting in the Word of God as our only authority to say something that could be used to bludgeon us is becoming so obvious that even a child could see it.

thomas15 said:

Your numerous attempts to get one of us that are trusting in the Word of God as our only authority to say something that could be used to bludgeon us is becoming so obvious that even a child could see it.

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Being in denial and playing semantics is the game you are playing. From now on, I will ignore any comments you make. There is no sense in wasting my time with you.

William Lefranc said:

Being in denial and playing semantics is the game you are playing. From now on, I will ignore any comments you make. There is no sense in wasting my time with you.

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That is about the third or fourth time you have said you are wasting your time here. But you are still here. We are well aware of these scriptures, and of how your kind wrest them into an excuse to deny that God will keep His promises to Israel.

William Lefranc said:

Being in denial and playing semantics is the game you are playing. From now on, I will ignore any comments you make. There is no sense in wasting my time with you.

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I had a good friend, now deceased, a co-worker of many years, an unbelieving Jew. He belonged to an Orthodox Synagogue, attended all of the services whenever the doors were open, kept all of the traditions. When I would ask him for his opinion on the future of Israel and the land as clearly shown in the Hebrew Scriptures, he responded verbatim same as you, even to the point of sometimes using New Testament quotes in an attempt to deflate the dispensational view that Jehovah keeps His promises. I think but cannot prove, but I speculate that he had read Gary DeMar also.

Apparently throwing out a plethora of New Testament verses, many unrelated to the topic at hand, others taken out of context, is a universal method of winning an argument against the clear teaching of the Scriptures.

We all like to quote Romans 10:17 " So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." but we struggle with actually trusting in the actual Words, which have actual meaning, opting instead for an interpretation that makes us feel good.

Anyway I pray William Lefranc God's blessing upon you as you search the Scriptures and learn more about our wonderful God, a God who keeps His promises.

My company was years ago located in an area with a large Jewish community. It is in-fact a noted Jewish community and there are a number of Yeshiva's or rabbinical schools. Since there is a concentration of Jewish seminaries there, there are also a number of Jewish primary and secondary schools for the children of the seminarians.

My company is privately owned by a family and was approached by a day school with a offer to purchase the facility that my company used. The offer was very good and the family was in the process of relocating our facility anyway, so the offer was accepted. For about 10 months I worked in a building that also housed a Jewish day school, a very conservative Jewish day school of the ultra orthodox variety. This school taught the children the Torah and Talmud by rote in song fashion.

I had on several occasions the opportunity to engage in congenial conversation with the school Head-Master who also took a weak view of the promises contained in the Hebrew Scriptures. It is interesting to me that an individual so committed to the Torah would be so casual to the promises within the Torah. Although just one individual, I believe him to be representative of the movement as a whole, that would deny that for example that Moses defeated the Egyptian Army at the Red Sea simply by the hand of God.

And yet here I am, a gentile who because I'm depending on Jehovah keeping His word to me personally, fully believes that the Army of Pharaoh, the most powerful army at the time, was defeated by a ragtag collection of former slaves, exactly as detailed in the Hebrew Scriptures.

The Bible is either a collection of stories or it is the Word of God and to quote Paul "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. " 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Note the words "All Scripture" not "some Scripture".