the work of God and OSAS are they exclusive of each other

redleghunter said:

It is not determinism but God’s sovereign acts.

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actually, no. If you take Calvinist thinking to its logical conclusion it is determinism. We all agree God is sovereign. It's how he interacts with his creation that is the question.

renniks said:

Personally, I think Lazarus probably came up swinging. I would be royally ticked off to be brought back back from heaven to Earth. Of course, it has absolutely nothing to do with salvation so I don't know why you're using it.

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It is being dead and then being called from death.

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

renniks said:

actually, no.

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God chooses His people. That is a Sovereign act before the foundations of the world. It is not pagan determinism.

Ephesians 1: NASB

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

redleghunter said:

It is being dead and then being called from death.

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

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Spiritually dead and physically dead are obviously not the same. Does being dead to sin mean unable to sin? Then why would being dead in sin mean you could not make a choice?
Romans 6:2 We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

renniks said:

actually, no. If you take Calvinist thinking to its logical conclusion it is determinism. We all agree God is sovereign. It's how he interacts with his creation that is the question.

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Yes His interaction with us is either one who is washed in the Blood of the Lamb and those who are not.

Reformed theology is not determinism. Humans saved or unsaved have choices. Humans have a will. The will is either in bondage to sin and death or a slave to the Righteousness of God.

Romans 6: NASB


12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin asinstruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members asinstruments of righteousness to God.14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

renniks said:

Spiritually dead and physically dead are obviously not the same. Does being dead to sin mean unable to sin? Then why would being dead in sin mean you could not make a choice?
Romans 6:2 We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

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Paul is using the same word for dead. Dead is dead. He makes it clear we are dead in our trespasses and sins and God is the one Who makes us alive. Says nothing about good intentions or a good heart and God meets us half way. Paul clearly uses dead because the dead don’t talk, think or move towards anything. He finishes the passage by making it clear it is by Grace and not our actions or goodness (verses 8-9). In verse 10 he says we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

redleghunter said:

The point is the people claiming "Lord, Lord" then go on and list the things they have done and not resting on His Grace and Mercy. The rest in the room of good intentions thinking they can make themselves good enough to be accepted by God.

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This is what you responded to in that quoted post of yours above: "YOU PROVE ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED IS TRUE BY EXPLAINING TO EVERYONE HOW THE SCRIPTURES IN MATTHEW 7:21-27 PROVE YOUR POINT."

First, your own admission shows the danger in your teaching. Though misrepresenting the reason Christ said these Christians will be condemned, which I will address next, still you admit these people that Christ will reject are Christians (or at least believe they are) when he rejects them. All can see in Christ's words they claim to believe they are saved as Christians, just as much as you believe you are saved. Yet Christ said they are not. Your teaching is not only misleading but dangerous as these scriptures demonstrate. You are telling the whole world including many who believe they are Christians that they are in a safe position before God, regardless how they act, as long as they consider themselves Christians who are leaning on God's grace. You're teaching their behavior is irrelevant because of God's grace upon Christians.

In teaching that you misrepresent what Christ said in those scriptures you were responding to (as well as other scripture). You told a half truth, which is no truth at all, since it diverts uninformed minds into accepting the opposite meaning of Christ's words. Christ did not say those condemned Christians will be condemned because they will not be resting on God's grace. So I ask, why did you say that? It certainly was not what Christ said. It's only what you said.

In those scriptures Christ said he will condemn those Christians because they are workers of lawlessness. They will not be doing his will or the will of his Father. That is exactly the opposite of what you claimed. Your claim was that those Christians die because they didn't lean on God's grace. Yet their words imply they believed God in his grace would forgive their lawless acts. This shows the danger in your teaching. People believe they will be forgiven by God, even if they are lawless because people tell them that, although scriptures speak against it. Christ explicitly says in vss 24-27 they did not observe his words. And for that reason, and because they don't listen to him or his Father, Christ will condemn those Christians. Here, I will post those scriptures below so that readers can see what Christ actually said. His words are very clear. Anyone can understand them, IF a Christian teacher does not add on and take away what Christ said.

FROM MATTHEW CHAPTER 7:
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
24“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

The problem with your teaching to the world is that you offer a lot of scriptures, and then misrepresent them to the uninformed. Let me give an example of how you teach, although I didn't read all your posts, so you might not have used this exact example, but it represents the type of teaching you do.

Example- You might use this famous quote:

15 "that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.…" John 3:15-17

And with it you might teach this means the word "believe" is used as the term is commonly used, without sharing these very next words of Christ, that show believing in Christ actually means not living in the dark ways of the Devil's world, but obeying him and his Father, like he told Christians to at Matthew Chapter 7:

19And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.” John 3:19-21

Those scripture and all of the New testament scriptures claim a Christian's behavior can cause Christ to judge them unworthy of life. Saved by God's grace absolutely does not mean believe but don't follow his guidance. That's a lie, a deadly one.
SEE 1 CORINTHIANS 6:8-10
AND REVELATION 22:12-15

redleghunter said:

Reformed theology is not determinism. Humans saved or unsaved have choices. Humans have a will. The will is either in bondage to sin and death or a slave to the Righteousness of God.

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Do you hear your self? If you are totally in bondage to one or the other, how do you have a choice? God frees the will to make real choices. Jesus said he came to set the captives free.

redleghunter said:

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin asinstruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members asinstruments of righteousness to God.14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

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Oh look, choices! Don't do this. Present your self to God, free choice. Don't let sin master you, another choice. Falling away is also a choice. A bad one, but one we can make.

redleghunter said:

Paul is using the same word for dead. Dead is dead. He makes it clear we are dead in our trespasses and sins and God is the one Who makes us alive. Says nothing about good intentions or a good heart and God meets us half way. Paul clearly uses dead because the dead don’t talk, think or move towards anything. He finishes the passage by making it clear it is by Grace and not our actions or goodness (verses 8-9). In verse 10 he says we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

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Paul is using a metaphor. It's not literal death.
"Since you have accepted Christ Jesus as Lord, live in union with him. Keep your roots deep in him, build your lives on him, and become stronger in your faith, as you were taught. And be filled with thanksgiving."
Colossians 2:6-7)

Do you follow this perfectly? If not, are you truly dead to sin? Or is it a daily choice?

Woke said:

This is what you responded to in that quoted post of yours above: "YOU PROVE ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED IS TRUE BY EXPLAINING TO EVERYONE HOW THE SCRIPTURES IN MATTHEW 7:21-27 PROVE YOUR POINT."

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I proved it did not make your point.

renniks said:

Do you hear your self? If you are totally in bondage to one or the other, how do you have a choice? God frees the will to make real choices. Jesus said he came to set the captives free.

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Read the text of what I quoted in Romans 6. Paul teaches we are either a slave to sin and death or slaves to righteousness. I think the text is pretty clear. Continuing in Romans 7 helps our understanding as well. Which is summed up as we are no longer under law but under Grace.

renniks said:

Oh look, choices! Don't do this. Present your self to God, free choice. Don't let sin master you, another choice. Falling away is also a choice. A bad one, but one we can make.

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He did not speak of 'falling away.' He spoke of the very fact that even though we are new creations we still have fallen flesh. We do have a choice to feed the flesh or be filled with and walk in the Holy Spirit Who indwells us. That's the point you are missing. A child of God is a new creation because God truly does indwell us. It is also evident that we 'do' what we believe, trust and have faith in.

renniks said:

Paul is using a metaphor. It's not literal death.

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He is truly laying out what it is to be spiritually dead and only God can quicken us. That is what the text is teaching.

renniks said:

"Since you have accepted Christ Jesus as Lord, live in union with him. Keep your roots deep in him, build your lives on him, and become stronger in your faith, as you were taught. And be filled with thanksgiving."
Colossians 2:6-7)

Do you follow this perfectly? If not, are you truly dead to sin? Or is it a daily choice?

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Don't know what translation you are using but the literal word for word is above in the NASB.

First, the context is encouragement. Encouragement which states "attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." Then what Paul says which is the context:



Then what you quote:


No mention of "falling away" but to be wary of false wisdom and knowledge. Don't be snookered by the false gospels. That by Paul's ministry they have been firmly rooted in the Gospel and now being built up in Christ and established in their faith. Paul then warns the Colossians the following which is rooted on the Person of Jesus Christ as the subject:



We see again the subject addresses false philosophies as they relate to the Truth of the Gospel and the Person of Jesus Christ. If we look at chapter 1 we see the strong warning of moving away from the hope of the Gospel. Nothing mentioned about falling away do to sin, but rejecting the Gospel of Christ Crucified, died for our sins and the Resurrection. Chapter 2 continues:


And we get a clear picture of what Paul is speaking of here. Gospel vs. Gospel + something else. Above he is showing the Finished Work of Jesus Christ is the Hope that cannot die by the Power that can never fail. Jesus Christ has made provision and has triumphed over all. So why add to this or cling to old traditions and a Law that could never make us righteous before God. Paul also mentions to the Colossians the same language of deadness to sin and quickening by God as he did to the Ephesians.

From chapter 1 and chapter 2 it makes it evident Judaizers were among the Colossians or came and visited and added to the Gospel of Grace. Here in chapter 2, Paul clarifies what he speaks of in chapter 1 when he spoke of the Colossians observing religious festivals and practices not rooted in Christ Jesus and the Gospel:


Notice verse 19. This is the 'firmly rooted' spoken of earlier in the chapter. It is a growth which is from God and not man-made traditions and edicts. And it is important to note that this man-made righteousness and outward appearance of piety has no value against fleshly indulgence.

So what we have here are some Judaizers and maybe other sects coming in, telling the Colossians that the Gospel is good but you must do this or that to keep from sinning. Paul is saying none of what they offer is of value against fleshly indulgence, but we are complete in Christ Jesus. Praise be to God.

redleghunter said:

So what we have here are some Judaizers and maybe other sects coming in, telling the Colossians that the Gospel is good but you must do this or that to keep from sinning. Paul is saying none of what they offer is of value against fleshly indulgence, but we are complete in Christ Jesus. Praise be to God.

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I'm glad you mentioned false teaching and judiazers. Why does Paul tell us not to fall for false teachers if we are slaves that can't fall away? Why does he say:
5 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Hello? We have to stand firm? I thought it was all predestined. Why does he say Christ will be of no use to you if you get circumsised? What does that matter if it's all pre decided?

renniks said:

I'm glad you mentioned false teaching and judiazers. Why does Paul tell us not to fall for false teachers if we are slaves that can't fall away? Why does he say:
5 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Hello? We have to stand firm? I thought it was all predestined. Why does he say Christ will be of no use to you if you get circumsised? What does that matter if it's all pre decided?

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Stand firm in what exactly? Context would be helpful. Anyone can pluck one verse out and make it what they want. I have provided you with entire passages or chapters, pointed out the context of the passage and offered other epistles where the same subject is discussed.

Flesh out verse 5 for me without your preconceived notions.

redleghunter said:

I proved it did not make your point.

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You didn't prove anything about it. You falsified the statement. You took something the scripture claims those people did, they claimed they did works for God, and then you claimed the scripture says Christ killed them for putting their trust in that. That was a lie. The scripture says Christ killed them only because they were lawless, while they were not listening to his voice or his father's voice. I suggest you make your points without deception.
MATTHEW 7:21-27
REVELATION 22:11-15

Woke said:

You didn't prove anything about it. You falsified the statement. You took something the scripture claims those people did, they claimed they did works for God, and then you claimed the scripture says Christ killed them for putting their trust in that. That was a lie. The scripture says Christ killed them only because they were lawless, while they were not listening to his voice or his father's voice. I suggest you make your points without deception.
MATTHEW 7:21-27

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Nothing was false in what I posted. When condemned the people who cry out to the Lord gave a laundry list of what they “did.” He said He never knew them.

redleghunter said:

Nothing was false in what I posted. When condemned the people who cry out to the Lord gave a laundry list of what they “did.” He said He never knew them.

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The scripture does not read he killed them for that. Either wake up or get honest. If you are honest quote that scripture for all readers yourself and point out exactly in it why Christ says they are judged.

redleghunter said:

Stand firm in what exactly? Context would be helpful. Anyone can pluck one verse out and make it what they want. I have provided you with entire passages or chapters, pointed out the context of the passage and offered other epistles where the same subject is discussed.

Flesh out verse 5 for me without your preconceived notions.

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But, you failed to answer my questions. Does being dead to sin mean you can't sin? Of course not. Does being dead in sin mean we can't respond to the Holy Spirit's call? Of course not.
Why do we have to stand firm? Because, going back to trying to be saved by works would mean that Christ is of no use to us. Over and over in this Chapter, Paul emphasizes our freedom, but you keep saying we are slaves and have no such freedom. And if this didn't include the freedom to fall away, why warn us against falling back into living by the flesh?

Roman 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Why the constant admonitions to live by the Spirit if the Spirit has made us a slave and we can't do otherwise?