Is this true: Greek Orthodox Holy Synod recognizes Ukrainian Schismatics?

TheLostCoin

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EP created Church in Kyiv in 988, old fashioned way: by evangelizing the locals. Learn.the.history.

By this logic, the Moscow Patriarch should be under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

Surely nothing has changed in the territory of Kievan Rus since the 10th century.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Bwahahaha. Accepting people from separated groups is the oldest thing in the canon books. And EP giving out autocephalies is how we now have 14 not 4.

Seriously, learn history.

you mean 14 and not 6. Cyprus was granted autocephaly by an Ecumenical Council, Georgia was granted it by Antioch.

seriously, learn history.
 
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TheLostCoin

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Bandera is a complex figure. Ukraine of the XX century was a plaything of invaders; between Holodomor, Stalin terror, and Nazi terror, it lost tens of millions. You betcha a figurehead of the most potent liberation movement will be venerated. And frankly, it is getting old hearing all the Bandera bashing from people who do not see much issues with current neo-Stalinisk quazi-fascism Russia now spews, with MP's enthusiastic support. You do know that Putin sponsors most of Europe's neo-Nazis, right?

So what, I should like Hitler because Stalin was worse? Hitler was also a complex figure, who probably really cared about Germany. Yet he still was a brutish dictator who was responsible for the torturing and killing of millions of people.


You should also know that "Poroshenko criminalizing Russian" is a straight out lie. Another puzzlwe is why Orthodox outside of Kremlin's "ballistic defense towers" (literary reference; mind control tech is Russian SF novel. Russian state TV is sometimes referred as that; you have to see it's propagandizing to believe it) supports regime that lies so much. Anyhoo, Ukraine rejected Poroshenko by wide margin (not for "nationalism"; with all due respect, the man is quite crooked). It now has the first popularly elected Jewish President outside of the state of Israel (raised Russophone, btw). In light of this, you guys should really pick up an updated set of propaganda.

Ah. So there's been no legislation which has prevented Russian from being a school language, no legislation which has banned Russian in the media, and no other active policy efforts to try to make illegal the native tongue of almost half the population of Ukraine?



You know what is NOT a lie? About 15,000 killed in Russia-instigated conflict in the East. Also, MH17 shot down by a Russian missile. These are not lies. Also, try to speak Ukrainian in the fake "republics" - or even Crimea.

Okay.

Again, OCU is supported by a plurality of Ukrainians; by contrast, nationalists' support is tiny. You'd have different people in every structure. For example, one pro-Russian terrorist group in Luhansk is called "Russian Orthodox Army", and ROCinU Metropolitan who is abbot of Kyiv Pechersk Lavra bragged about killing people with prayer. MP right now constructs a "Military" Cathedral which they plan to decorate with images of Soviet military decorations (stars, red banners, hammers-and-sickles abound). Finally, there is such a thing as Russian Orthodox Stalinism, as well as the Grigori Rasputin cult.
The Church doesn't get to vote via poll numbers whether a Bishop should have autocephaly or not. Quite frankly, if the Church did, the Church probably wouldn't have the first primate have jurisdiction over 4000 people in Turkey and then have multiple Churches it owns abroad, nor would it have multiple jurisdictions in non-Orthodox countries.

The OCA doesn't have autocephaly recognized by the EP, and it was a painful and tiring process for an autonomous American Church even then.

Will Russian historical record suffice? Anyhow, neither the bribe nor the _many_ shady things MP did here are relevant. Ukraine remained EP territory all this time, while MP *canonically* continued to govern it - because EP let them in that 17th century letter. Then in 2018, EP decided to fire the building manager. They never relinquished their right to do that, just didn't think it will do any good. Until now.

Can you cite what "Russian historical record" you are talking about?
And if you give up your territory, you can't invade it claiming it's yours. That's not how Orthodoxy works.


No no no no. EP didn't "change his mind". To them, ROCinU WAS the only canonical Church, up until a year ago. It revoked Moscow's right to administer Metropolis of Kyiv, that's all.

How kind of the EP to lend out for free Ukraine to Moscow for 4 centuries, while not actually telling the MP at any point that they were lending it out, but rather giving the clear, documentary indications that they actually gave it to Moscow.

Again, didn't "change his mind". "Lifted the sanction" is the term. And to be clear: EP did receive Filaret as a Bishop, on his petition; they didn't recognize UOC-KP as "canonical". UOC-KP was dissolved to form OCU; EP insisted rather strongly that Filaret will NOT be the Primate of the new Church, in part to avoid confusion.

So what changed in Filaret's life and spirituality that let Patriarch Bartholomew realize that the sanctions were worth lifting? What circumstances changed where Patriarch Bartholomew felt it expedient to lift the sanctions?

There was no secret. EP *always* considered Ukraine it's territory. Proof: text of Tomos given to Church of Poland. The fact that people do not know history doesn't change that.

And Jerusalem always considered the world its territory.
 
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StanU

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So what, I should like Hitler because Stalin was worse? Hitler was also a complex figure, who probably really cared about Germany. Yet he still was a brutish dictator who was responsible for the torturing and killing of millions of people.
Yeah, Hitler was brutish dictator. By contrast, Bandera led a resistance movement. I'm not a big fan of him, but c'mon, distinction is not even subtle.
(Yes, his paramilitary did war crimes. So did Red Army. Also, Hiroshima.)

This is not even the point I was making. Forget Stalin; Russian regime is an invading murderous terrorist-sponsoring lying fake-news election-meddling font of corruption right now. Do you get why they'd rather talk about 1943?


Ah. So there's been no legislation which has prevented Russian from being a school language, no legislation which has banned Russian in the media, and no other active policy efforts to try to make illegal the native tongue of almost half the population of Ukraine?
And again, I'm one of "almost half the population" raised Russophone. Ukraine have a single official language, for a good reason; speculating on "abuses" *I* supposedly suffer is not a good reason NOT to have official-language protection laws that are actually milder than in supposedly multinational Russia. What people unable to learn an official language in 28 years want is not equality; they want continuation of privilege. Also, prop up results of centuries of ethnic-cleansing policies.

You clearly mean "not okay". Okay.


The Church doesn't get to vote via poll numbers whether a Bishop should have autocephaly or not. Quite frankly, if the Church did, the Church probably wouldn't have the first primate have jurisdiction over 4000 people in Turkey and then have multiple Churches it owns abroad, nor would it have multiple jurisdictions in non-Orthodox countries.

The OCA doesn't have autocephaly recognized by the EP, and it was a painful and tiring process for an autonomous American Church even then.
I feel for you.

Don't argue with me. Read Kirill Hovorun's essay on the pastoral case for OCU's establishment, and THEN argue.


Can you cite what "Russian historical record" you are talking about?
And if you give up your territory, you can't invade it claiming it's yours. That's not how Orthodoxy works.
Don't have to cite what's common knowledge. There was a detailed account in Dn. Andrei's blog (the guy is a MP critic but equally bashes EP, so not like there's any bias. Andrei Kuraev was ROC MP's chief apologist for decades). Seriously, they almost brag about it.

How kind of the EP to lend out for free Ukraine to Moscow for 4 centuries, while not actually telling the MP at any point that they were lending it out, but rather giving the clear, documentary indications that they actually gave it to Moscow.
...so clear, in fact, that MP has to strain to read them into the single document.
And yes, ROC benefited immensely from Metropolis of Kyiv's resources, over the centuries. Materially and intellectually.

So what changed in Filaret's life and spirituality that let Patriarch Bartholomew realize that the sanctions were worth lifting? What circumstances changed where Patriarch Bartholomew felt it expedient to lift the sanctions?
Really should ask Patriarch Bartholomew about that. Bottom line, lifting an anathema from someone who's not actually a heretic is a "good thing not a bad thing", no matter how disagreeable the person. ESPECIALLY when it relieves millions in canonical void with him (seriously, Prof. Hovorun's essay). A circumstance that changed, and I'm guessing, was the chance that Filaret's boundless ambition could be somewhat contained this time. Which worked out fairly well, if not without some fireworks. Met. Epiphany proved to be much better Primate, at least in present circumstances.

And Jerusalem always considered the world its territory.
That might be. Ukraine, OTOH, WAS the EP's territory. Until he voluntarily gave it up earlier this year.
 
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dzheremi

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Hmm. From the same YT channel that originally caused me to start this thread, the following popped up today:

His Eminence Orthodox Metropolitan of Pireus Seraphim, of the Orthodox Church of Greece commented Ukrainian schismatic leader "Epiphanius" after he concelebrated with the Roman-catholic priest. "Consequently, these people are not only unholy, they are heretical and lacking the fear of God. Therefore, to ask the autocephalous Orthodox Churches to recognize them is at least outrageous.”
So...there's that. :scratch:
 
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Platina

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The only instance where Liturgy was concelebrated was with a Montenegrin priest, in a service with dozens of concelebrants. Met. Epipnahy officially apologized, in a letter to the Church of Serbia no less. Catholic priests present vested in churches during services were fairly common occurrence in ROC until recently. New Slovenian parish is a debunked hoax; foreign parishes OCU has are holdovers from UOC-KP and UAOC, and exist until hierarchs figure out what to do with them. Ironically, one of more high profile of these was a cathedral of. Met. Ioasaph of Bogorod and Oboyan in Russia, and a couple of churches under this hierarch. He solved this problem for OCU by following Patr. Hon. Filaret into his new schism.

In short, the article you link is full of lies. One has to wonder why Moscow has to resort to so much lying. Maybe because they don't have a legitimate case.
The new Slovenian parish is not a debunked hoax. The priest in question told me himself he is planning to serve there once a month. That's a parish.

And all the other evidence in the article proves it. The Ukrainian embassy announced a new parish, the parishioners are talking about their new parish on Facebook.

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Not David

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Hmm. From the same YT channel that originally caused me to start this thread, the following popped up today:

His Eminence Orthodox Metropolitan of Pireus Seraphim, of the Orthodox Church of Greece commented Ukrainian schismatic leader "Epiphanius" after he concelebrated with the Roman-catholic priest. "Consequently, these people are not only unholy, they are heretical and lacking the fear of God. Therefore, to ask the autocephalous Orthodox Churches to recognize them is at least outrageous.”
So...there's that. :scratch:
Isn't it clear that it is Russian propaganda?! :swoon:Just like this song.
 
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Platina

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As much as I'd like to say otherwise, it's not particularly clear, no. That's why I asked you nice people here on TAW.
You're right, it isn't clear. Archbishop Ieronymos says, "I recommend we recognize the OCU." The bishops say, "Archbishop Ieronymos, we entrust you with the decision for the Greek Church." Metropolitan Hierotheos then tells the press this implies recognition and every outlet around the world reports that they recognized.

Then two bishops say, "Waaait a minute." So who knows.

If Abp. Ieronymos has the authority to decide and he recommends recognizing, does that mean he has made the ultimate decision to recognize?

Hopefully things will become clear on Saturday, when he is expected to concelebrate with Patriarch Bartholomew. Will Epiphany be commemorated? Will Abp. Ieronymos go? There are bishops urging him not to go.
 
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Platina

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Metropolitan Seraphim of Kythira says 11 are against the issue of autocephaly going further for now. They want another, longer, more indepth Bishops' Council.

The initial number of 7 was about bishops who didn't want there to be a vote. However, some oppose a vote not because they're opposed to recognition but because they think its incorrect to vote on something the EP has done -- it must only be accepted. Metropolitan Hierotheos, for instance, holds this position.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Metropolitan Seraphim of Kythira says 11 are against the issue of autocephaly going further for now. They want another, longer, more indepth Bishops' Council.

The initial number of 7 was about bishops who didn't want there to be a vote. However, some oppose a vote not because they're opposed to recognition but because they think its incorrect to vote on something the EP has done -- it must only be accepted. Metropolitan Hierotheos, for instance, holds this position.

gotcha, but didn't Metropolitan Hierotheos also say or at least imply that what HAH has done can be overridden by an actual pan-Orthodox council? I remember reading him say we have to accept the decision for now, but maybe it can be corrected.

or something like that
 
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buzuxi02

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The Greeks are just an extension of the EP they have less autonomy than the Ukranian Orthodox Church they claim needs to be autocephalous.
They are just using sophistries to claim plausible deniability if things go sour. They have recognized the schismatics and also have embraced a new heretical teaching that the Phanar is pope who can not only give autocephaly but rescind it whenever he wants.
 
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StanU

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The new Slovenian parish is not a debunked hoax. The priest in question told me himself he is planning to serve there once a month. That's a parish.

And all the other evidence in the article proves it. The Ukrainian embassy announced a new parish, the parishioners are talking about their new parish on Facebook.

*Planning* to serve *once a month* is only very loosely a "parish". There might be other details - eg., is this really an OCU operation? Can be a service for Ukrainians within a different jurisdiction. Besides, it sounds like the priest in question led a UOC-KP parish in Bratislava that is apparently defunct - so might be existing community finding a new location. There ARE OCU communities outside Ukraine left over from mostly UOC-KP, and something needs to be figured out about that. But churches having structures outside their proper territory should not scandalize anyone; aren't all of ROCOR and OCA technically this?

Roman Catholic priest didn't concelebrate with the OCU; there is a big comment from OCU spokesman Met. Evstratiy (Zorya) on Facebook. For one, that is actually forbidden to RC priests. He was a guest, didn't even partake. Same is true about everything else: overblown or false. Inter-jurisdictional and ecumenical Molebens or Lityas are fairly common since basically forever, and not just among Ukrainians. Patr. Kirill attended a fair amount in his day, seeing how he was in the External Affairs for decades (so was Filaret BTW). Met. Epiphany was asked explicitly about these impending Unia scenarios, and denied them outright.
 
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StanU

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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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I mean just think about all the stuff that The Church has endured through the centuries :

• Pagan Roman Emperors
• Islam
• Communism
• Nazis
• Arian Bishops
• Countless Heresies
• Genocidal Turks
• Schismatic Power Hungry Patriarchs
• Crusaders during The Sack of Constantinople
• Secret Societies
• Forced Calendar Changes to The Gregorian Calendar
• Government Intelligence Agencies / KGB etc.
• Atheist Evolution Trash

The list goes on and on.

But The Church Always Endures and Prevails. Glory To The Father, To The Son and To The Holy Spirit Both Now and Forever and Unto Ages Of Ages Amen.



.
 
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