Spacetime or a vacuum can never be totally empty.

sjastro

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Given recent threads involving Krauss about something being created from nothing here is the science perspective.

The concept of nothing is very much tied in with the modern or non classical version of a vacuum which is a quantum field in the lowest energy level.
You can’t divorce a field from nothingness or a vacuum.

This idea comes from a seemingly unrelated topic in classical physics the Simple Harmonic Oscillator (SHO).
An example of a SHO is a weight attached to a spring.
Pulling down on the weight and letting it go results in oscillation.

The Hamiltonian or total energy H of the SHO is defined as;

a.jpg

The first term on the right is the kinetic energy for the SHO in terms of the momentum p.
The second term is the potential energy stored in the spring with frequency ω and displacement x.

In early to mid 20th century scientists came up with Quantum Field Theory (QFT) where the field can be quantized like the energy levels associated with scalar particles such as electrons in atoms.

Each point in spacetime is defined by a SHO.
In this case the quanta of the field are the scalar particles which can be destroyed and created by annihilation and creation mathematical operators defined as follows.

b.jpg

Expressing the Hamiltonian for the SHO in terms of the creation and annihilation operators gives;

d.jpg

Where N is the number operator is defined as;

c.jpg

The state |n > is not the state of a single particle but is the state of the field with n particles or quanta present.
The eigenstates of the Hamiltonian for the field are of the form.

g.jpg

which is analogous to the quantum mechanical equation for a single particle.

e.jpg

Here the energy levels for the field are;

h.jpg

The lowest energy state occurs when n=0 and E = ħω/2 ≠ 0 where there are no particles or quanta which defines the vacuum.
Hence spacetime or a vacuum can never be totally empty and is supported by experiment such as the Casimir effect.
In fact you can get something from “nothing” as the “nothing” in this case is not totally empty.
 
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Anguspure

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Given recent threads involving Krauss about something being created from nothing here is the science perspective.

The concept of nothing is very much tied in with the modern or non classical version of a vacuum which is a quantum field in the lowest energy level.
You can’t divorce a field from nothingness or a vacuum.

This idea comes from a seemingly unrelated topic in classical physics the Simple Harmonic Oscillator (SHO).
An example of a SHO is a weight attached to a spring.
Pulling down on the weight and letting it go results in oscillation.

The Hamiltonian or total energy H of the SHO is defined as;

a.jpg

The first term on the right is the kinetic energy for the SHO in terms of the momentum p.
The second term is the potential energy stored in the spring with frequency ω and displacement x.

In early to mid 20th century scientists came up with Quantum Field Theory (QFT) where the field can be quantized like the energy levels associated with scalar particles such as electrons in atoms.

Each point in spacetime is defined by a SHO.
In this case the quanta of the field are the scalar particles which can be destroyed and created by annihilation and creation mathematical operators defined as follows.

b.jpg

Expressing the Hamiltonian for the SHO in terms of the creation and annihilation operators gives;

d.jpg

Where N is the number operator is defined as;

c.jpg

The state |n > is not the state of a single particle but is the state of the field with n particles or quanta present.
The eigenstates of the Hamiltonian for the field are of the form.

g.jpg

which is analogous to the quantum mechanical equation for a single particle.

e.jpg

Here the energy levels for the field are;

h.jpg

The lowest energy state occurs when n=0 and E = ħω/2 ≠ 0 where there are no particles or quanta which defines the vacuum.
Hence spacetime or a vacuum can never be totally empty and is supported by experiment such as the Casimir effect.
In fact you can get something from “nothing” as the “nothing” in this case is not totally empty.
So....we can get something from nothing just as long as the nothing is something.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Given recent threads involving Krauss about something being created from nothing here is the science perspective.

The concept of nothing is very much tied in with the modern or non classical version of a vacuum which is a quantum field in the lowest energy level.
You can’t divorce a field from nothingness or a vacuum.

This idea comes from a seemingly unrelated topic in classical physics the Simple Harmonic Oscillator (SHO).
An example of a SHO is a weight attached to a spring.
Pulling down on the weight and letting it go results in oscillation.

The Hamiltonian or total energy H of the SHO is defined as;

a.jpg

The first term on the right is the kinetic energy for the SHO in terms of the momentum p.
The second term is the potential energy stored in the spring with frequency ω and displacement x.

In early to mid 20th century scientists came up with Quantum Field Theory (QFT) where the field can be quantized like the energy levels associated with scalar particles such as electrons in atoms.

Each point in spacetime is defined by a SHO.
In this case the quanta of the field are the scalar particles which can be destroyed and created by annihilation and creation mathematical operators defined as follows.

b.jpg

Expressing the Hamiltonian for the SHO in terms of the creation and annihilation operators gives;

d.jpg

Where N is the number operator is defined as;

c.jpg

The state |n > is not the state of a single particle but is the state of the field with n particles or quanta present.
The eigenstates of the Hamiltonian for the field are of the form.

g.jpg

which is analogous to the quantum mechanical equation for a single particle.

e.jpg

Here the energy levels for the field are;

h.jpg

The lowest energy state occurs when n=0 and E = ħω/2 ≠ 0 where there are no particles or quanta which defines the vacuum.
Hence spacetime or a vacuum can never be totally empty and is supported by experiment such as the Casimir effect.
In fact you can get something from “nothing” as the “nothing” in this case is not totally empty.
Yes, exactly; there seems to be an equivocation of 'nothing' as the concept of absolute negation which can have no physical referent, and 'nothing' as in the concept of a relevant absence, e.g. 'nothing in the cupboard', or 'space with no particles is nothing'. The second usage is the more common in practice.

It seems that Krauss is Cordelia to the critics' King Lear: "Nothing can come of nothing: speak again." :rolleyes:
 
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Michael

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In fact you can get something from “nothing” as the “nothing” in this case is not totally empty.

Um, not exactly. A better way to phrase it would be: You can in fact get "something" from "something" as the energy state of even a vacuum is "something" (QM fields). Krauss simply redefined the term "something" (QM fields) to be "nothing".
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Um, not exactly. A better way to phrase it would be: You can in fact get "something" from "something" as the energy state of even a vacuum is "something" (QM fields). Krauss simply redefined the term "something" (QM fields) to be "nothing".
Not so much a redefinition as vernacular usage. As already mentioned, he went to some lengths to explain the whys and wherefores - argue with his reasons if you like, but ignoring them is petty.
 
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Michael

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Not so much a redefinition as vernacular usage. As already mentioned, he went to some lengths to explain the whys and wherefores - argue with his reasons if you like, but ignoring them is petty.

It's not as though I'm the only person to take exception to Krauss' description of QM fields as "nothing". "Nothing" would be the complete *absence of everything*, including QM fields.
 
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Tolworth John

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The concept of nothing is very much tied in with the modern or non classical version of a vacuum which is a quantum field in the lowest energy level.
You can’t divorce a field from nothingness or a vacuum.

The basic assumption here is that there were, what we call the laws of physics in place when creation happened.

If those 'laws' were not there then the rules they sek to explain would not operate and the arguement would be invalid.

This is not a scientific debate but a philisophical one and there the concept of 'Nothing' is valid.
 
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Michael

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"But they do it too!" is just childish.

I agree with Tolworth John. It's ultimately a philosophical debate. Krauss is essentially just redefining what has always been a philosophical term into something that it's not. A complete absence of everything would be "nothing". Including QM fields and then calling it "nothing" is just misleading IMO. Had he used the term "vacuum" or "quantum vacuum" rather than "nothing", I'd be more sympathetic to his claim and your argument.
 
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46AND2

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I agree with Tolworth John. It's ultimately a philosophical debate. Krauss is essentially just redefining what has always been a philosophical term into something that it's not. A complete absence of everything would be "nothing". Including QM fields and then calling it "nothing" is just misleading IMO. Had he used the term "vacuum" or "quantum vacuum" rather than "nothing", I'd be more sympathetic to his claim and your argument.

But here is the thing...by "redefining" it as he did, he is also commenting on the philosophical "nothing." In his view, there has never been a state of "nothing." His nothing is as close as it gets.

"Taking exception" to the idea that Krauss is not really arguing for something coming from nothing is kind of missing the point. He agrees with you, something can't come from nothing.
 
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Anguspure

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Well, we'll never known until someone demonstrates that True Nothing (tm) is possible.
I don't think it is. Even in Theism, God does not truly create from nothing as such. It is His output of energy that causes things to exist.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Had he used the term "vacuum" or "quantum vacuum" rather than "nothing", I'd be more sympathetic to his claim and your argument.
He did, in defining what he meant by 'nothing' in his book for popular consumption. It wasn't intended for philosophers, but an interested public.
 
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sjastro

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The basic assumption here is that there were, what we call the laws of physics in place when creation happened.

If those 'laws' were not there then the rules they sek to explain would not operate and the arguement would be invalid.

This is not a scientific debate but a philisophical one and there the concept of 'Nothing' is valid.
Here is a revolutionary idea; this is a science forum where topics involving science are discussed as I made perfectly clear in the opening post.
Metaphysical arguments are not science and can be discussed elsewhere.
 
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Michael

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But here is the thing...by "redefining" it as he did, he is also commenting on the philosophical "nothing." In his view, there has never been a state of "nothing." His nothing is as close as it gets.

"Taking exception" to the idea that Krauss is not really arguing for something coming from nothing is kind of missing the point. He agrees with you, something can't come from nothing.

But there's a problem. His personal definition of "nothing" isn't the absence of everything, so it's not actually "nothing". Call it whatever you like but it's not actually the absence of everything, including the absence of QM fields and physics, so it's not actually "nothing".

I get the distinct impression that he used the term "nothing" more as an advertising gimmick than anything else to help him sell his book. If he'd used the scientific term "vacuum", he would have been fine scientifically speaking, but by using the term "nothing", he delved into the realm of philosophy and then he changed the rules and the definitions to suit himself.

He can't really have it both ways. Either he should have stuck to science and used the proper scientific term "vacuum", or delved into it the philosophy and used the term "nothing" properly. Instead he mixed and matched science and philosophy and changed the term "nothing" to suit himself. In doing so, he seems to have irritated both philosophers and scientists alike.
 
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Michael

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He did, in defining what he meant by 'nothing' in his book for popular consumption. It wasn't intended for philosophers, but an interested public.

Sure, but don't you think the term "nothing" was essentially "bait"?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Sure, but don't you think the term "nothing" was essentially "bait"?
I think it made for a book that was more likely to sell and be read than, "A Universe from Only Quantum Fields", which, if you want to introduce the interested public to modern cosmology, is a sensible idea. YMMV.

Frankly, I don't really understand the fuss - is it a sense of betrayal or just pedantry? The former seems naive, the latter petty.
 
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