The Reprobate Doctrine

Daniel C · Oct 13, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Aren't you the same person who said this?

No I am not the same person. (Joke)

Saint Steven · Oct 13, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
To be given over to a reprobate mind; is probably just as simple as God removes His hand of restraint.

I agree with that. Thanks.

Daniel C · Oct 13, 2019

Saint Steven said:
So, you don't believe 2Peter3:9 ???

2 Peter 3:9 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
9 the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,

No I don't believe everyone will be saved. If that be the case, why did Christ preach more on Hell then any other Biblical figure,was he just playing?

Why did he commission his believers to preach the Gospel to save the lost? That would be pointless if everyone is saved in the end.

Daniel C · Oct 13, 2019

HatGuy said:
. . .

Was I reprobate before I came to Christ? Yes, of course. . .

Is this you?

Jeremiah 6:30
''Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord hath rejected them.''

HatGuy · Oct 13, 2019

Daniel C said:
Is this you?

Jeremiah 6:30
''Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord hath rejected them.''

Yes, I was under God's wrath until he saved me. Were you not?

Daniel C · Oct 13, 2019

HatGuy said:
Yes, I was under God's wrath until he saved me. Were you not?

No. I have never been rejected and made reprobate by God,if I had there would be no way back.

HatGuy · Oct 13, 2019

Daniel C said:
No. I have never been rejected and made reprobate by God,if I had there would be no way back.

Ok, just to be clear, you were not under God's wrath before he saved you?

Saint Steven · Oct 13, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Can you explain why / where you are now coming to these conclusions? I've known you to be Scripturally quite sound. This "everyone is going to be saved" and "hell is not eternal" surprises me.

That's a good question. I appreciate your concern and your respect for my past performance relative to posting what is scriptural. Until someone hears me out, it is easy to come to the wrong conclusion on all this.

Recently I have been challenged to reconsider the standard doctrinal stance on the final judgment. And I was quite resistant initially. And found that it required an enormous amount of research and study to even comprehend where the other side was coming from. I'll break this down to basics. I don't expect you to accept this without doing your own homework. But thanks for hearing me out.

There are three basic positions related to the Doctrine of the Final Judgment.
1) Damnationism (the prevailing view) Eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire for the "lost" with no hope of release. Supported by biased Bible translations/doctrines
2) Annihilation (a less popular view) A shorter time of torment ending in complete annihilation.
3) Universalism (the restoration of all creation in the afterlife) What is commonly/erroneously called hell, will be curative and restorative rather than pointless eternal torture with no hope of escape.

My posting recently has been in support of the third view listed above. I'm fairly new to this. So, I am still trying to get a firm understanding of it. Yet, I am willing to defend it and find it to be scripturally sound taking into account the translation issues.

I hope that makes sense. Let me know if you have other questions. Although, I don't mean to hijack this topic. Feel free to PM me if that seems a better option. Thanks.

The Righterzpen · Oct 13, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful response.

Once again we are dealing with translation bias. But I suppose you could fault me for the same thing. Anyway... here is a translation I prefer for these passages.
The Greek rather than being translated to eternal, is translated to "age" or "ages" or "ages of the ages". Thus a period of time, rather than time without end. Unfortunately, that also applies to eternal life. (life age-during) The question becomes, to what end? Annihilation or restoration? I side with restoration.

Mark 9:43 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
43 `And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --

Revelation 14:10-11 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,
11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:10-15 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works;
13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;
15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

Psalm 9:5 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
5 Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever.

So, do you believe that eternal life isn't actually eternal either? You must be able to see that logically, you can't have it both ways.

And here's another difficulty.

You know one of those passages in Revelation said that those who's names were not written in the lambs book of life were thrown into the lake of fire. Well, when was the lambs book of life written? (Answer - from the foundation of the world.)

If redemption is based on atonement and we can't atone for our own sin; then how does a sinner in your assessment of "how eternity operates" come to restoration? You can't square that belief with the entirety of Scripture.

Saint Steven · Oct 13, 2019

Daniel C said:
Why did he commission his believers to preach the Gospel to save the lost? That would be pointless if everyone is saved in the end.

I should explain now that I am looking toward a different end point than you. I believe there will be a restorative period (age) in the afterlife used to restore all things. As I have said earlier, every knee will bow "under the earth". Which is in "the realm of the dead". (referred to 29 times in the Bible) Thus in time everyone will be saved. But not before Christ returns.

Daniel C · Oct 13, 2019

HatGuy said:
Ok, just to be clear, you were not under God's wrath before he saved you?

I and all people start under the Grace of God:

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

So not by individual merit or inherit value are we saved but the Grace of God. How long does Gods grace extend and does it vary? I say it does vary and I point to Romans 1 and the description given to show that a person can be rejected from God and lose the opportunity to be saved and reconciled with the creator.

God is not mocked.

The Righterzpen · Oct 13, 2019

Saint Steven said:
That's a good question. I appreciate your concern and your respect for my past performance relative to posting what is scriptural. Until someone hears me out, it is easy to come to the wrong conclusion on all this.

Recently I have been challenged to reconsider the standard doctrinal stance on the final judgment. And I was quite resistant initially. And found that it required an enormous amount of research and study to even comprehend where the other side was coming from. I'll break this down to basics. I don't expect you to accept this without doing your own homework. But thanks for hearing me out.

There are three basic positions related to the Doctrine of the Final Judgment.
1) Damnationism (the prevailing view) Eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire for the "lost" with no hope of release. Supported by biased Bible translations/doctrines
2) Annihilation (a less popular view) A shorter time of torment ending in complete annihilation.
3) Universalism (the restoration of all creation in the afterlife) What is commonly/erroneously called hell, will be curative and restorative rather than pointless eternal torture with no hope of escape.

My posting recently has been in support of the third view listed above. I'm fairly new to this. So, I am still trying to get a firm understanding of it. Yet, I am willing to defend it and find it to be scripturally sound taking into account the translation issues.

I hope that makes sense. Let me know if you have other questions. Although, I don't mean to hijack this topic. Feel free to PM me if that seems a better option. Thanks.

Well, "annihilation" is more Scripturally "consistent" with the concept of atonement than "universal restoration" is.

The fact of the matter is; the issue of how one is atoned for has to be addressed; because essentially what you're saying is that you can pay for your own sin. And if that were truly the case; there'd be no point in Jesus dying.

This also contradicts that "No man comes to the Father but by me."

Saint Steven · Oct 13, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
So, do you believe that eternal life isn't actually eternal either? You must be able to see that logically, you can't have it both ways.

Right. That was a shocker. We have been promised eternal life as long as I can remember. (I was raised in a Christian home) How can this be? But you are right. You can't have it both ways. Compare these translations below.

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Matthew 25:46 New International Version (NIV)
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

HatGuy · Oct 13, 2019

Daniel C said:
I and all people start under the Grace of God:

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

So not by individual merit or inherit value are we saved but the Grace of God. How long does Gods grace extend and does it vary? I say it does vary and I point to Romans 1 and the description given to show that a person can be rejected from God and lose the opportunity to be saved and reconciled with the creator.

God is not mocked.

The whole of Ephesians 2 until verse 8, KJV:

"1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

Question: Who is this 'you'? Only the Ephesians?

"2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

Question: Who is this 'ye'?

"3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Question: Who is this 'we all'?

" 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
"5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

"6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

Question: Who is this 'we' that were dead in sins?

"7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The problem is that God's grace cannot vary, because if it does then it ceases to be grace. Grace cannot be contingent on some factor like being too depraved. There is no depravity too big for God.

The Righterzpen · Oct 13, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Right. That was a shocker. We have been promised eternal life as long as I can remember. (I was raised in a Christian home) How can this be? But you are right. You can't have it both ways. Compare these translations below.

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Matthew 25:46 New International Version (NIV)
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

So now you believe you can lose your salvation; even in the recreated heavens and earth?

How would that be possible? Didn't Christ atone for sin once and for all?

(Bro - I'm scared for you!)

Daniel C · Oct 13, 2019

Saint Steven said:
I should explain now that I am looking toward a different end point than you. I believe there will be a restorative period (age) in the afterlife used to restore all things. As I have said earlier, every knee will bow "under the earth". Which is in "the realm of the dead". (referred to 29 times in the Bible) Thus in time everyone will be saved. But not before Christ returns.

Oh I knew you were looking toward a different end point when you said all the creation will be saved. This viewpoint is universalism and needs to reject many foundational Christian principles to work,like some I mentioned-Hell,preaching,rejecting Christ etc

How does your view get round my questions about the Bible Steven.

Daniel C · Oct 13, 2019

HatGuy said:
The whole of Ephesians 2 until verse 8, KJV:

"1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

Question: Who is this 'you'? Only the Ephesians?

"2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

Question: Who is this 'ye'?

"3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Question: Who is this 'we all'?

" 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
"5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
"6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

Question: Who is this 'we' that were dead in sins?

"7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The problem is that God's grace cannot vary, because if it does then it ceases to be grace. Grace cannot be contingent on some factor like being too depraved. There is no depravity too big for God.

Why can't Gods Grace vary? Show me scripture to prove this.

Saint Steven · Oct 13, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
And here's another difficulty.

You know one of those passages in Revelation said that those who's names were not written in the lambs book of life were thrown into the lake of fire. Well, when was the lambs book of life written? (Answer - from the foundation of the world.)

If redemption is based on atonement and we can't atone for our own sin; then how does a sinner in your assessment of "how eternity operates" come to restoration? You can't square that belief with the entirety of Scripture.

That's a great question.
I think what we call hell will operate like this scripture below. Although this scripture is written about the evaluation/testing of believers who will not be judged according to their works but rather rewarded for their quality of work. The wicked, I believe will be tested in the same way, but according to their works. When confronted with their sin their will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. But this will be restorative in the final outcome. As I understand it. Not the purposeless torture of burning forever with no hope of escape.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

The Righterzpen · Oct 13, 2019

Saint Steven said:
That's a great question.
I think what we call hell will operate like this scripture below. Although this scripture is written about the evaluation/testing of believers who will not be judged according to their works but rather rewarded for their quality of work. The wicked, I believe will be tested in the same way, but according to their works. When confronted with their sin their will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. But this will be restorative in the final outcome. As I understand it. Not the purposeless torture of burning forever with no hope of escape.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Your presupposition here though does not address what Christ actually did. He either paid for sin or He didn't. If He didn't, we're all screwed!

Your doctrine here is not internally consistent.

Galatians 3:
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

What you're proposing is nothing more than a variation of this. You've just postponed the end game into eternity; but its essentially still "be made perfect in the flesh".

Did someone in your family suddenly die and you're afraid they will burn?

Saint Steven · Oct 13, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Well, "annihilation" is more Scripturally "consistent" with the concept of atonement than "universal restoration" is.

The fact of the matter is; the issue of how one is atoned for has to be addressed; because essentially what you're saying is that you can pay for your own sin. And if that were truly the case; there'd be no point in Jesus dying.

This also contradicts that "No man comes to the Father but by me."

More great comments/questions. Thanks.

That's what we would expect from a translation bias, correct?
The doctrinal bias will be well-supported.

No. What we need to understand is that the atonement applied to the whole world.
And those who receive it will not be judged or in need of restoration.
That restoration is not self-payment, because Jesus already paid the price.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Colossians 1:20
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:4
who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The Reprobate Doctrine

Do you believe God gives people over to a reprobate mind, as defined in Romans 1

Yes

No

Other

I've never heard of the reprobate doctrine

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