Why do only some lose faith?

cloudyday2 · Oct 9, 2019

Ricky M said:
Not boring at all. There's a big debate in some circles on whether one can 'lose' their Christianity. So it's interesting to hear from someone who claims to have done just that, and why.

What were these visions and paranormal activity?

It's difficult to know where to begin in describing that stuff. There was such a variety, and there are naturalistic explanations for most things - even if they seem a stretch in some cases. This mostly happened over 2 or 3 years about 10 years ago. So if I say "some angels sat behind me in church while a demon sat beside me..." I would be exaggerating. That is what seemed to happen. The "angels" seemed to be dressed like late 1800s or early 1900s and seemed overly serious but otherwise were human. The "demon" was dressed normally but behaved oddly such as holding the prayer book upside down and smirking and generally turning the service into a joke. Were they normal people that my imagination distorted? Were they hallucinations? Were they "real" angels and demons in some sense? I gave the church a lot of my savings that day to help them rebuild after a natural disaster, so I suppose I was stressed.

There are probably 10-20 things like that. Some of them more or less meaningful and more or less bizarre. One experience was a very short dream. A dream is less "paranormal" than some of the other experiences, but this dream seemed to answer some questions about Christianity. All kinds of things happened I guess.

Ricky M · Oct 9, 2019

These angels and demons, did they profess any kind of relationship with Jesus Christ? One way to discern their source is to follow the glory up the food chain. If their focus stops anywhere short of glorifying God, it is false. If they proclaim anything less than Christ crucified, they are false. Could it be you were visited by masquerading spirits, and as such were never actually a Christian?

Did you ever confess Christ as the Son of God, sacrificed for your sins?

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 9, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
"Why do only some lose faith?"

Answer me this: Why do only some lose a million dollars?

Ricky M · Oct 9, 2019

Visions, visitations, dreams, etc do not make one a Christian. There is only one way to become a Christian, and that is to believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is the sacrificed Son of God. Yes, we will be judged on all this peripheral stuff, but belief and confession are the only ticket in. So if in all this you never actually believed and confessed, you were never a Christian. You may have held faith in Christian mores, but you never are in until your faith is in Christ. And there IS a difference.

In return, the only way to 'lose' one's Christianity would be to likewise actively not believe, and deny Christ.

So, vision and visitations aside for a moment, where are you on this?

eleos1954 · Oct 9, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
Ideally if everybody has the same information then everybody should reach the same conclusion. Of course that isn't the case on many issues.
- Sometimes issues are so complex that a thorough and error-free analysis of the information is not possible for most people.
- Sometimes people don't care enough about an issue to analyze the information.
- Sometimes the information can only point to likely conclusions and Pascal's wager becomes applicable. For example the rewards and punishments if Christianity is true might make continued faith seem preferable. Or another example might be a married couple where loss of faith by one spouse might cause problems.

Even though I am an ex-Christian, this question can go either way. "Why do only some lose faith?" or "Why do only some keep faith?". People who are members of CF and debate with members of opposing faiths must have familiarity with the same information. Why do our conclusions differ?

Because the devil messes with everybody ... and the devil particularly enjoys twisting Gods word and deceiving people. What better way for satan to deceive people than by twisting Gods word?

Genesis 3:1

New International Version
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He (the serpent) said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

Yep ... satan is still using the same game plan. Nothing new.

Robban · Oct 9, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
It's difficult to know where to begin in describing that stuff. There was such a variety, and there are naturalistic explanations for most things - even if they seem a stretch in some cases. This mostly happened over 2 or 3 years about 10 years ago. So if I say "some angels sat behind me in church while a demon sat beside me..." I would be exaggerating. That is what seemed to happen. The "angels" seemed to be dressed like late 1800s or early 1900s and seemed overly serious but otherwise were human. The "demon" was dressed normally but behaved oddly such as holding the prayer book upside down and smirking and generally turning the service into a joke. Were they normal people that my imagination distorted? Were they hallucinations? Were they "real" angels and demons in some sense? I gave the church a lot of my savings that day to help them rebuild after a natural disaster, so I suppose I was stressed.

There are probably 10-20 things like that. Some of them more or less meaningful and more or less bizarre. One experience was a very short dream. A dream is less "paranormal" than some of the other experiences, but this dream seemed to answer some questions about Christianity. All kinds of things happened I guess.

I wonder something,

Have you been blessed by donating of your savings?

Have you suffered anyway financially after donating?

You say you were stressed, could it not have been the

own evil inclination trying to get it,s way,

If you cannot make head or tail of the demon, angel thing, then drop it.

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 9, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
Ideally if everybody has the same information then everybody should reach the same conclusion. Of course that isn't the case on many issues.
- Sometimes issues are so complex that a thorough and error-free analysis of the information is not possible for most people.

It is also an error/ already failed, to expect people to find the truth that way.

Remember what happened in ACTS, on PENTECOST ?

WHO AT THAT TIME gave all the words the anointed ones spoke, such that every man in the crowd, from all 70 'nations' on earth represented, EACH HEARD IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE the message .... ?

cloudyday2 · Oct 9, 2019

Robban said:
I wonder something,

Have you been blessed by donating of your savings?

Have you suffered anyway financially after donating?

You say you were stressed, could it not have been the

own evil inclination trying to get it,s way,

If you cannot make head or tail of the demon, angel thing, then drop it.

At that time I was hoping that God would show me a way to escape my responsibilities. I had foolish fantasies of become a monk. I hated being trapped in a business partnership with my brother. I thought it would be nice to help the church rebuild, but mostly I wanted God to help me find a purpose in life. I don't think that was the best way to donate to a charity although the money is the same regardless of the motivations of the giver. I would have preferred to give money to a more worthy charity such as the animal shelter.

On the angel and demon thing, I don't think about it much. It wasn't clear what it was, and it wasn't clear what purpose it served if it was actually spiritual. Might have been stress and imagination. That is good advice to drop it. I find those things interesting, but sometimes nothing can be gained from thinking about them.

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 9, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
but mostly I wanted God to help me find a purpose in life.

COol.... His Plan ALSO!

Ricky M · Oct 9, 2019

I wouldn't necessarily drop the angel/demon thing. What I pray for you is discernment, so you may know what their source is (even if it was just a bad meal). Think about it, you may have never been a Christian, but now they have you denying Him. Sounds like a demonic plot to me.

cloudyday2 · Oct 9, 2019

Ricky M said:
These angels and demons, did they profess any kind of relationship with Jesus Christ? One way to discern their source is to follow the glory up the food chain. If their focus stops anywhere short of glorifying God, it is false. If they proclaim anything less than Christ crucified, they are false. Could it be you were visited by masquerading spirits, and as such were never actually a Christian?

Did you ever confess Christ as the Son of God, sacrificed for your sins?

No, they didn't speak. One argument for it being hallucinatory is that only one sense was involved - sight. I sat down in the front pew alone. Then the anachronistically dressed "angels" came and sat behind me. Then the "demon" sat down and slid down the pew beside me. He turned around with a silly smile and offered a handshake to one of the "angels" who simply stared coldly at him. I didn't pay any attention to the "angels" after that, because they were behind me. Also I didn't think of them as angels and demons at that time. I thought they were just people. The "demon" had his prayer book upside down and never sang or spoke and didn't go up for communion. When I reached across the "demon" to put my large check in the offering plate I felt momentarily like claws were digging into my chest. I was surprised and confused but I went ahead and tossed my check in the plate. At the end of the service everybody is supposed to kiss the cross held by the priest, but the "demon" shook hands with the priest instead. I thought that was odd along with the behavior of the "demon".

A few days later the priest came to visit, and I asked him who that guy was. I thought the priest might know him, because he shook hands with the priest as though he was his friend. Also we were in the front pew. The priest looked uncomfortable and said he didn't notice this guy. Then the priest "borrowed" money from me. Apparently that priest "borrowed" money from everybody for various nonsense reasons. Maybe the "demon" was saying, "you are my kind of priest, keep of the good work, buddy." LOL (Actually I liked that priest as a person. Like most people he was complicated.) ... Another interesting tid bit on that. I had an icon of the Nativity and the priest pointed to a character and asked me who it was. I had no idea but I guessed "John the Baptist?". He said "no, that's the devil". That is what started me thinking. Why did the priest point out that character. Then I started wondering if the weird guy (the "demon") was actually human like I had initially assumed or something else like a demon.

dlamberth · Oct 9, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
Ideally if everybody has the same information then everybody should reach the same conclusion. Of course that isn't the case on many issues.
- Sometimes issues are so complex that a thorough and error-free analysis of the information is not possible for most people.
- Sometimes people don't care enough about an issue to analyze the information.
- Sometimes the information can only point to likely conclusions and Pascal's wager becomes applicable. For example the rewards and punishments if Christianity is true might make continued faith seem preferable. Or another example might be a married couple where loss of faith by one spouse might cause problems.

Even though I am an ex-Christian, this question can go either way. "Why do only some lose faith?" or "Why do only some keep faith?". People who are members of CF and debate with members of opposing faiths must have familiarity with the same information. Why do our conclusions differ?

Are you asking about losing faith in the Christian religion? Or is it faith in God that your asking about?

I can speak only for myself and my own experiences. What I lost faith in was the Christian image of God and the theology that came with it and thus the Christian religion. At the same time, I did not lose faith in God. That's actually increased.

Tigger45 · Oct 9, 2019

When troubles come in this world and they will, the question comes, will I blame God or rely on Him come what may whether I comprehend the outcome of the situation or not.

cloudyday2 · Oct 9, 2019

dlamberth said:
Are you asking about losing faith in the Christian religion? Or is it faith in God that your asking about?

I can speak only for myself and my own experiences. What I lost faith in was the Christian image of God and the theology that came with it and thus the Christian religion. At the same time, I did not lose faith in God. That's actually increased.

I suppose either but mostly I was thinking about Christianity. Like me and my sister for example. I lost my faith and she has kept her faith as far as I know. She is probably smarter than me (although I wouldn't normally admit that LOL). One possibility is that she is an MD and is alway doing things - working long shifts or going on vacations. She isn't a person who sits around staring at clouds and thinking random thoughts.

cloudyday2 · Oct 9, 2019

Ricky M said:
Visions, visitations, dreams, etc do not make one a Christian. There is only one way to become a Christian, and that is to believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is the sacrificed Son of God. Yes, we will be judged on all this peripheral stuff, but belief and confession are the only ticket in. So if in all this you never actually believed and confessed, you were never a Christian. You may have held faith in Christian mores, but you never are in until your faith is in Christ. And there IS a difference.

In return, the only way to 'lose' one's Christianity would be to likewise actively not believe, and deny Christ.

So, vision and visitations aside for a moment, where are you on this?

Well, I was a cradle Episcopalian. I believed those things, because I was indoctrinated from earliest childhood. I was always concerned that I couldn't point to a moment in time when I was "saved" and the heavens opened up and so forth as many Christians claim must happen. In college when I began to question Christianity I decided to be baptized a second time as an adult in hopes that I would get some confirmation of my salvation. When nothing happened and I was actually coached on how to babble to speak in tongues after the baptism then I became more skeptical. About 20 years later I started believing due to "spiritual" (or possibly psychological) experiences, and I felt that I believed whole-heartedly. ... Now I am more skeptical than ever, but I also have memories of experiences that are not all easily explained from an atheist's perspective.

cloudyday2 · Oct 9, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
COol.... His Plan ALSO!

Lately I have begun to think that God (and I don't necessarily mean the Christian God) might have me on course with His plan even though I feel that I am going nowhere in life. The things that humans value are mostly self-centered. Sometimes my gain is somebody else's loss. How can God favor me over somebody else? Maybe my purpose is to lose so that somebody else might win. Maybe I am supposed to be a villain rather than a hero. Whatever serves God's master plan should be what I want.

Robban · Oct 9, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
Lately I have begun to think that God (and I don't necessarily mean the Christian God) might have me on course with His plan even though I feel that I am going nowhere in life. The things that humans value are mostly self-centered. Sometimes my gain is somebody else's loss. How can God favor me over somebody else? Maybe my purpose is to lose so that somebody else might win. Maybe I am supposed to be a villain rather than a hero. Whatever serves God's master plan should be what I want.

Then there is,

"If we do His will only when it makes sense to us.

What has it got to do with Him?

We are doing our own will."

awitch · Oct 9, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
"Why do only some lose faith?"

Their faith doesn't deliver on its promises.
Their faith expects more than they are willing to commit.
Their faith no longer feels relevant to their state in life.
Corruption of religious leaders.
Exposure to new ideas, science, and philosophies.
They are unhappy with the negative effects their religion has on society and especially the people they care about.
They start to associate with a new group of people that doesn't place an importance on that faith.

"Why do only some keep faith?"

Having a sufficiently convincing personal experience that isn't shared by anyone else.
Fear of being shunned or other retribution from family or friends caused by walking away.
Naivety.
It remains significant enough that it becomes part of the person's identity.
Desire for socialization with like-minded people or being part of group.
Mental illness.
Fear of injustice, death and/or uncertainty.
It makes a positive contribution to a person's life.
Easy way to avoid putting thought into resolving very complex problems.
Tribalism.

MehGuy · Oct 9, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
Ideally if everybody has the same information then everybody should reach the same conclusion. Of course that isn't the case on many issues.
- Sometimes issues are so complex that a thorough and error-free analysis of the information is not possible for most people.
- Sometimes people don't care enough about an issue to analyze the information.
- Sometimes the information can only point to likely conclusions and Pascal's wager becomes applicable. For example the rewards and punishments if Christianity is true might make continued faith seem preferable. Or another example might be a married couple where loss of faith by one spouse might cause problems.

Even though I am an ex-Christian, this question can go either way. "Why do only some lose faith?" or "Why do only some keep faith?". People who are members of CF and debate with members of opposing faiths must have familiarity with the same information. Why do our conclusions differ?

I don't know.. I think on paper I seemed like the least likely Christian to turn atheist, yet I did.

Guessing some subtle aspect of my thinking that I can't quite quantify. Not that I do not have some theories, but thus far nothing has completely satisfied my thinking.

Ricky M · Oct 10, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
No, they didn't speak. One argument for it being hallucinatory is that only one sense was involved - sight. I sat down in the front pew alone. Then the anachronistically dressed "angels" came and sat behind me. Then the "demon" sat down and slid down the pew beside me. He turned around with a silly smile and offered a handshake to one of the "angels" who simply stared coldly at him. I didn't pay any attention to the "angels" after that, because they were behind me. Also I didn't think of them as angels and demons at that time. I thought they were just people. The "demon" had his prayer book upside down and never sang or spoke and didn't go up for communion. When I reached across the "demon" to put my large check in the offering plate I felt momentarily like claws were digging into my chest. I was surprised and confused but I went ahead and tossed my check in the plate. At the end of the service everybody is supposed to kiss the cross held by the priest, but the "demon" shook hands with the priest instead. I thought that was odd along with the behavior of the "demon".

A few days later the priest came to visit, and I asked him who that guy was. I thought the priest might know him, because he shook hands with the priest as though he was his friend. Also we were in the front pew. The priest looked uncomfortable and said he didn't notice this guy. Then the priest "borrowed" money from me. Apparently that priest "borrowed" money from everybody for various nonsense reasons. Maybe the "demon" was saying, "you are my kind of priest, keep of the good work, buddy." LOL (Actually I liked that priest as a person. Like most people he was complicated.) ... Another interesting tid bit on that. I had an icon of the Nativity and the priest pointed to a character and asked me who it was. I had no idea but I guessed "John the Baptist?". He said "no, that's the devil". That is what started me thinking. Why did the priest point out that character. Then I started wondering if the weird guy (the "demon") was actually human like I had initially assumed or something else like a demon.

I almost want to say there is a prophetic message in this...

Why do only some lose faith?

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