I'm not ignoring anything ... I have limited time sometimes ;o)
Matthew 24:21 Matthew 24:26-42
The "business" as usual is that the tribulation period will escalate .... "like birth pains" ... it (tribulation) will progress (business as usual) until it get's so terrible, almost unbearable (severe persecution - more yet to be martyred) thankfully time will be cut short then He will return.
Matthew 24
4Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8
All these are the beginning of birth pains. (increasing pain over time
)
Revelation 6:11 - In vision
11Then each of them was given a white robe and
told to rest (those previously resting in the grave who were martyred)
a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed,
just as they had been killed. (martyrs yet to come)
Revelation 6-19 - Not for sure what verse(s) you are referring to here.?
We have several accounts of when God poured out his wrath and/or protected His people from wrath and/or harm it. Is God unable to protect His people? He has and He will.
The fiery furnace: Shadrach, Meschach, and Abednego, the Lord Himself was with them in the fiery furnace.
One question that arises from the passage you mention is this: Where was Daniel? Daniel represents figuratively those who will be raptured before the beginning of the tribulation.
"Daniel & the Lions Den: God sent an angel to shut the mouth of the lion.
And where were Shadrak, Meshak, and Abednego?
Surely they didn't stop praying, either..."
Didn't say they stopped praying. ??? The point was Jesus was in the furnace with them ... He protected them while being in the "tribulation" of the fiery furnace ... he was in the furnace with them.
God's wrath ... The flood ... Noah and his family were protected from the world-wide flood (Gods wrath) and the rest were taken away by the flood.
Actually ... not so ... Noah and his family remained ... the lost were taken away by the flood.
Genisis 7
22Of all that had been on dry land, everything that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23
And every living thing on the face of the earth was destroyed— man and livestock, crawling creatures and birds of the air; they were blotted out from the earth, and only Noah remained, and those with him in the ark.
And Enoch was translated before the flood.
Yes He was ... not to protect him from tribulation .... because he walked with God.
Like in the days of Noah ... God will protect His people.
The plagues of Egypt (Gods wrath) ... God protected His people.
Plagues of Egypt: plagues fell on Egypt in Old Testament times. The first three fell on both the Egyptians and the Israelites; the last seven fell only on the Egyptians. At end-time, the seven last plagues fall only on the wicked while the righteous, still on earth, are protected.
And it may well be that God's people will be protected during the tribulation, yet they will not be part of the body of Christ, but will still be God's elect to salvation.
This doesn't make sense .... God's elect ARE the saved ... those in Him ... the one's He will protect. The elect ARE all believers.
Jesus comes as a thief after, not before, the plagues.
The great tribulation period will be cut short.
"I have to disagree, brother."
Not that it doesn't really matter ... but I am your sister.
Other examples, the children of Israel endured 400 years of tribulation just before the Exodus (Acts 7:6). The early Christians also passed through a time of trouble immediately after the stoning of Stephen (Acts 8:1). From A.D. 303-313, during the era represented by the Smyrna church (Revelation 2:10), God's people suffered a 10-year period of tribulation.
And yet Jesus promises to keep the church of Philadelphia (representing the faithful last days church) FROM (not through) the trial that will come upon all that dwell on the earth:
Philadelphia symbolically represents all who are ONE in Christ who ARE His church ... all the saved resurrected and living when He returns.
"Revelation 3:10 NASB 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing , that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."
The hour of testing is .... (having the seal of God), or the receiving the mark of the beast. Follow the beast or not ... it the testing.
But perhaps the most notable time of trouble was the 1,260 years of intense persecution waged against true Christians during the Dark Ages. "And the woman (His church of the time - His people) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and threescore days." "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman." Revelation 12:6, 13.
Interesting... I had never heard this teaching before. I am afraid, though, that you are misidentifying the woman of Revelation 12. Observe these two passages closely:
first:
Genesis 37:9-10 NASB Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, "Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me." (10) He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, "What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?"
second:
Revelation 12:1-2 NASB A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; (2) and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
"Who is the woman of Revelation 12? Genesis 37:9-10 makes it clear that the woman represents the people of Israel."
The pure woman ... the church ... Jeremiah 6:2 2 Corinthians 11:2 Ephesians 5:23-27
Who is Israel? As history has played out ... and as we study the NT up to Revelation .... we are taught there is neither Greek or Jew ... he that is Israel is not Israel ... all are ONE in Christ Jesus, all that are in Him ... are His Israel ... His people ... His church He put in place, built on Himself.
"Israel gave birth to the Messiah Jesus, not the church!"
No ... God "birthed" Israel through Abrahams son Jacob.
Genesis 35:10
God said to him, "Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel." So he named him Israel.
Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him.
"Christ’s return is often compared to the coming of a thief. It implies suddenness and unpreparedness as far as unbelievers are concerned. Just as Christians are not to be surprised by the Rapture of the church (1 Thessalonians 5:4), so believers at the time of the Second Coming will be anticipating His return. Blessing is promised to the one who is prepared for the coming of the Lord by being attired in the righteousness or clothing which God Himself supplies."
The only the "rapture" that takes place is when He returns and the 1st resurrection takes place. Nobody knows the day or time. And yes we are to be prepared.
Does God protect His people? Most certainly ... and He is with them through their tribulations.
Agreed, but some of His people (in this case, the church/body of Christ) are often taken away before the tribulation begins (Daniel; Shadrack, Meshack, and Abednego; Enoch; Elijah).
The Lord warns (His people) they will go through great tribulation.
It is true Enoch & Elijah were taken to heaven ... but it wasn't because of them going through tribulation ... it was because they were walking with God.
Matthew 24:21
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
We are being warned of very difficult times to come.
However, for the saved, those days will be cut short ... but they/we will go through them.
Matthew 24:22
And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect (the saved - Gods people) those days (of great tribulation) will be cut short.
Cut short ..... Gods people are still on earth during the great tribulation.
After the "short days" .... THEN
Daniel 12:1
“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time (during the short time). But at that time (end of the short time) your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book (of life).
Interestingly, these passages are all spoken to Jews.
... and later in history through the NT ... we find are taught that not all who are all Israel are Israel (referring to the book of life (above) ... aren't you in the book of life? are you a Jew?
He returns and then the first resurrection (of the saved dead) and those alive at the time are translated and taken to heaven.
1st Thessalonians 4
When does the "first resurrection" occur according to Revelation? It says it happens AFTER Christ has returned and He begins to set up His Millennial Kingdom, not during the second coming:
It does not say He will set up His millennial kingdom in 1st Thessalonians 4 ... it says .... we (all the saved) will be with the Lord.
Revelation 20:4-6 NASB Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (5) The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. (6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
"And this resurrection only deals with those who died during the tribulation (verse 4). What about those who lived during the church age? What about the OT saints? They are resurrected at the rapture some 7 years earlier (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)!"
It does not say only those who died in the tribulation ... it says the dead will rise first ... nor does it say anything about 7 years earlier.
All the saved dead for all times are resurrected ... they have been asleep in the grave ... the dead in Christ rise first ... Just as 1 Thessalonians 4 in it's entirety states. (shall not precede - none go before those who have previously died - asleep in the grave)
1 Thessalonians 4
The Return of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain (the saved still on earth) will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
His people ARE on earth and do go through the great tribulation ... until He returns
Yes. The tribulation saints and the people of Israel go through the great tribulation.
EVERYBODY saved and unsaved to through the great tribulation
... there is no special (or secret) rapture.
No doubt We Disagree on the "secret rapture theory".
His return is going to be a loud and powerful event ... with a voice of an archangel, trumpet of God (not a secret one) ... and the 1st resurrection happens.
1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a
loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
From then on we are with the Lord.
John 14
1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. 2In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going away to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.”
Where is Jesus? He's in heaven in His Father's house (the place where he was going (above). He will welcome us there in His presence (in heaven)
No ... at the 1st resurrection, when He returns in all His glory and takes ALL the saved to heaven.
The major differences are ... some people (such as yourself) are stuck in the "nation of Israel box" and/or the "Jew box" ... when scripture clearly lets us know ... as taught by the apostles there is no such thing.
Romans 9
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
Galatians 3
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 10
12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
and so it is ... all the saved are ONE in Christ Jesus and there is no distinction.
So .. if one finds themselves stuck in the "nation of Israel box" or the "Jew box" ... then agreement on many things isn't possible.
Mainly the dividing issues are:
The state of the dead - asleep in the grave until His return
Who is God's "Israel" - all who are in Christ.
The elect - are all who are in Christ
Therefore, if you (or others) believe there is special treatment for the nation Israel and the Jews .... really it is pretty futile for us to continue conversation on the matter.
Acts 10
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right
We are ALL the same (One) in Christ Jesus.
The time leading up to the second coming will be marked by unprecedented tribulation in which an innumerable group of people will be martyred (Matthew 24:21-22; Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 7:9-17)… notably, this indicates that the people of God who go through the tribulation will not be protected as you seem to think.
