Vicarious Law-keeping?

WordSword said:

It appears our last couple of replies to one another have become centered on the validity of believing or disbelieving in eternal security, which I've learned that a debate between two of varying understandings concerning it is unnecessary, because it being the most important growth truth, I believe only the Spirit can impart the truth concerning it and not another.

Their are numerous scriptures that appear to support both opinions and such debates tend to have the appearance of each wielding the Sword (Word) at one another. I usually cannot find a debate that doesn't develop into this type and so I do not go very far with this subject.

Concerning the passages you listed it's my belief that what some others call warnings I call encouragements, for why would one need to warn someone who is reborn about loosing their salvation, and to me there is only one type of salvation, "eternal salvation" (Heb 5:9; 9:12, 15; 2Th 2:16).

Best wishes and blessings!

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As for Hebrews 5:9:


As for Hebrews 9:12:


As for Hebrews 9:15:

As for 2 Thessalonians 2:16:


But you are free to believe as you wish, friend;
Just know that you are not properly dealing with explaining the words in Scripture I put forth to you in how they appear in the Bible plainly. You did not explain the word "IF" in 1 John 1:7, etc.

In any event, blessings to you from the Lord Jesus Christ;
And may you please be well.

Sincerely,

~ J.

WordSword said:

Hi! Thanks for your comment, good point. It's my understanding that works (of course only with faith) were criteria under the Law, but now the criteria is rebirth, and works are just a manifestation of it, which need no warnings as the Law had (Gal 5:23); and due to possessing His Spirit and being "partakers of the divine nature," i.e. new nature or "new man," the warnings of obedience are not necessary. Within the new birth, God "works" obedience within in the believer (Phl 2:13), which He had not done in those under the Law.

God bless!

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Thank you. I can agree with this to a point. Ideally we would be so changed and perfected that there'd be no reason to be kept aware of any obligation to righteousness that we may have (and I don't believe God's purpose in all this is to suddenly decide to ignore injustice or unrighteousness as if sin no longer mattered). But one interesting truth is that Scripture continuously warns, exhorts, admonishes, and encourages believers...to strive, persevere, be vigilant, be holy, refrain from sin, remain faithful, remain in Christ, invest their talents, do "for the least of these", do good works, obey the commandments, generally with loss of eternal life at stake.

In the overall big picture it's apparent to me that we must admit that man's will is involved, even if only in retaining the right, by God's decree, to say "no" to Him at any step along the way. We're still obligated to righteousness as I see it. The reconciliation that Jesus won between man and God places us, via faith, in communion with Him. That relationship, which Adam severed, is the basis for man's justice/righteousness. And that is the major difference between the old and new covenants. To be "under the law" is to still be apart from God while attempting to be righteous on our own. To be "under grace" is to now be united with God, which is the proper order of things for man, as we come to recognize and admit our failure at obedience and therefore of our need for Him, when we meet Him in the person of Jesus Christ, and then He does the justifying, placing His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts. (Jer 31) "Apart from Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5)

WordSword said:

This is a good point. I believe prior to rebirth, we can say no to the truth, because we have yet to desire faith. But it's my belief that we will never say no after rebirth, because this is exactly what God's "work in you" does (Phl 2:13), and if one has yet to be reborn, he has yet to find this "work" of God within. To me it's not sensible that one reborn would ever say no after being saved, but most of mankind does say no before being saved (Mat 7:13, 14).

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I agree that we cannot say "yes" unless God enables it by His grace. But even then I would say He won't override our wills; we can still say "no". Or we can say no later, after "having tasted of the heavens gift". This is why I believe salvation is both an event (conversion) and an ongoing process, through which it is "worked out".

WordSword said:

I wouldn't consider it "force" if God "works in you" to obey ("desire and do His pleasure"), which otherwise we wouldn't. Those who have not this "work" in them have yet to be reborn and cannot desire and do these works. Genuine obedience is the evidence of God's inward "work." Disobedience evinces the absence of this inward work. We obey because He works this in us and it's not of ourselves, but of the Spirit and the new nature the Father uses in the Life of Christ in us (Col 3:4).

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Again, why give us commands, tell us to continue in the faith, continue in God's grace, continue in His goodness, and or be told to keep ourselves in the love of God if obedience is for all those who are born again? Why tell us, "IF we walk in the light" when that is a condition of being saved or regenerated? Are "God's commands in the New Testament," and the "IF statements in the Bible in related to salvation" not true?

Also, please take no offense, but I am skeptical of your position. Do you believe that saints who believe as you do will truly walk a holy and new life that does not justify sin? My experience in talking with Eternal Security proponents is that they say it is impossible to stop sinning in this life and that when they do fall into sin, they are still saved because of their belief alone on Jesus. This means, that if they just so happen to steal, they are still saved, or if they just so happen to cheat on their wife, they are still saved, etc.
Do you believe this way, as well?

Do you believe future sin is forgiven a person?
If so, then imagine if you told a child this and they turned God's grace into a license for immorality and they turned out to be yet another George Sodini (See this article here on George Sodini). What would you do if this happened? Would you re-examine your belief on telling others that future sin is forgiven them?

You said:

To me, "entering the holy place refers to Heaven, which was "by His own Blood He entered in once . . ., having obtained eternal redemption for us; and the Life of Christ is that of which we are "partakers" (Col 3:10; the new Nature - 2Pe 1:4).

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But Christ did not obtain eternal redemption for all true Belief Alone Proponents at the time Christ ascended up to the Father to enter the holy temple by his blood because:


Unless of course you believe in Universalism or something, but I do not get that impression that you believe that way. In other words, what you are saying here does not logically work in the realm of reality.

Amen, the gift from a Person (Rom 6:23;1Jo 5:11).

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And we have to keep His commandments to show that we know the Lord (1 John 2:3). For the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). But again, why give us commands if we will automatically obey God? Why not just give us a description on how the saints behave to show the difference between believers vs. those who are not? Is this what we see in the New Testament? No. We are given approximately 450 explicit commands in the New Testament. This should not be if things are as you say.

You said:

Just to let you know, I'm nearly done with the OSAS issue for now, because extending a debate over it in with exchanging our use of Scripture is the beginning of "wielding the Sword" (not suspect us of doing this but it always appears that if ongoing too long).

God bless!

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We both cannot be right, and defending the truth with God's Word is a biblical concept.

2 Timothy 4:2, 2 Timothy 3:16-17, and Jude 1:3.

Anyways, may God bless you, as well (even if we disagree strongly on the topic of Soteriology); Oh, and may you please be well, too.

WordSword said:

Thanks, and never will any offence be taken! The type of people you are mentioning here sound confused and unsaved, if that's what they mean. People who are truly saved never again live a sinners life as before they were reborn. I've visited and taught in many churches in the last 40 years and I've never encountered these type of people.

From eternity God knew everyone's choice concerning salvation, so He did it all for them, and He will know when the last one will come in (Rom 11:25). Thus when Christ secured redemption God knew everyone who would receive it, and reject it (which has always been most of mankind - Mat 7:13, 14).

Thanks again for our proper communication in sharing our beliefs!​

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I think it is about asking the right questions to see what folks really believe. People are really good at hiding what they truly believe. I have talked with many Eternal Security Proponents over the years on various different forums, and most of them all sing the same tune in the fact that they can sin and still be saved on some level. Some have told me that they can sin as much as they like and still be saved. Many teach a double message when it comes to Eternal Security. I know. I have encountered such a things too many times than I care to count. I had believers admit to me that they could mow down a crowd of people with a submachine and they still would be saved because they have a belief alone on Jesus (both in person and online). Then there are Mid range level Eternal Security proponents who say that you have to generally live a holy life, but dying in one or two unconfessed grievous sins like lying, or lusting, or hating, or killing does not mean one is not saved. In short, they believe one or two sins is permissible as long as the believer generally lived a holy life (i.e. a holy life as they define it and not as how the Bible defines it).

Only one believer I know believes in the light version of Eternal Security that does not justify living disobedient to God in any form. But I asked him if King David was saved while he was in his sins of adultery and murder, and he said OT saints were not saved in the same way as NT saints are. This to me does not seem consistent in the way GOD operates concerning sin; And neither is it in line with the Scriptures.

Do you think king David was saved while he was committing his sins of adultery and murder?

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes on act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes on act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

WordSword said:

Thanks, and never will any offence be taken! The type of people you are mentioning here sound confused and unsaved, if that's what they mean. People who are truly saved never again live a sinners life as before they were reborn. I've visited and taught in many churches in the last 40 years and I've never encountered these type of people.

From eternity God knew everyone's choice concerning salvation, so He did it all for them, and He will know when the last one will come in (Rom 11:25). Thus when Christ secured redemption God knew everyone who would receive it, and reject it (which has always been most of mankind - Mat 7:13, 14).

Thanks again for our proper communication in sharing our beliefs!​

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How do you see the parable of the Prodigal Son in relation to sin and salvation?
Was the prodigal son saved while he was living in his riotous sinful life away from his father?

WordSword said:

If we look at the wording of this parable we see the son was "dead" and "lost," and to me, even before he left, which showed in his mind, at least, disunity with his father. But the lesson showed he came to realize that he desired unity with his father regardless of all things. So to me the issue is that he was good as saved, because he would eventually become so, same for all who are lost, whom the Father knows will be saved.

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In the Parable of the Prodigal Son: When the son returned home to the father and he sought forgiveness with him, he said that his son was "dead" and is "alive again." ALIVE AGAIN. That is what it says.

"For this my son was dead, and is ALIVE AGAIN; he was lost, and is found."
(Luke 15:24).

How can the son be dead and then "alive AGAIN"?

This suggests that he was alive spiritually at a previous time, and that going prodigal for a while into a life of sin meant that he died spiritually and he needed to be made "ALIVE AGAIN."

You cannot deny this plain meaning of the text here.

Please take note that the father said this same thing again in verse 32, as well.

WordSword said:

"A man may say" he has faith (Jas 2:18), but an absence of the fruit of the Spirit will show no faith (nonexistent; dead). To me, faith always shows truth, and all who have it are in Christ. What you are describing would be unsaved false professors who have not been reborn.

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Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)


And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)

You said:

I believe all who eventually become saved cease from living in disobedience to God. Those whom God used were all sinners who eventually sought Him, but of course God knew this and He used them after becoming right with Him. To me, part of salvation's fruit is being forgiven by God, and this came in the OT providing forgiveness according to faith in His Word (e.g. Num 15:24-31) concerning the Leviticus Priesthood obedience for the sin offering. In the OT sins were not remitted but only repeatedly forgiven in the sin offering once annually (forgiveness was secured one year at a time), but remission (only once needed) of sin came with Christ, which never again requires repeated as in the OT sin offering.

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In the Old Covenant, burnt offering animal sacrifices were done daily; Once in the morning and another one in the evening (See: Exodus 29:38-42, Numbers 28:3, Numbers 28:6, and 2 Chronicles 2:4). A burnt offering animal sacrifice also took place every Saturday Sabbath (See: Numbers 28:9-10). In addition, an animal sacrifice was made at the beginning of each month, as well (See: Numbers 28:11). The Day of Atonement was an offering for the sins of the people of Israel in general (Which was a special celebration of atonement that could lead an individual Israelite to reconcile with the Lord).

While under the New Covenant, we do not need to offer animal sacrifice to atone for our sins because Jesus is our perfect one time sacrifice for all time, that does not mean we get a "get out of hell" card because of what he did. We have to access God's grace through the vehicle of faith. A true faith shows itself by works (James 2:18).

Yet, you are saying that the "regeneration" of the believer means that works do not save, and yet the regenerated believer will automatically do good works. Let me ask you. Was King David saved when he fought Goliath? Was King David saved while he was committing his sins of adultery and murder? You really did not address this.

Ananias and Sapphira were condemned for their one time sin of lying to the Holy Ghost (See: Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11).
A great fear fell upon the church when they heard of this (See Acts of the Apostles 5:11). Now, I want you to put your detective hat on and not seek to alter verse 11 to fit your belief here. If fear truly means fear then such an emotion does not make any sense if Ananias and Sapphira were fakes and were never saved, or if they died for their sin and they were rewarded with entering God's kingdom and to see the Lord Jesus Christ. Fear by believers only makes sense is if they knew that a similar one time sin (that condemns) could also happen to them.

You said:

Adam and Eve were the first examples of forgiveness when God shed the first blood of an animal (Gen 3:21) to typify Christ's coming work for the expiation of sin, which eventually meant a "once for all" sacrifice and, "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins," and "where there is remission of sin there is no more offering for sin (i.e. never again required - Heb 9:22;10:18). To me, this is why faith and salvation are permanent, plus it's non-sensible to conceive that God would give one eternal life (salvation) knowing they would eventually reject Him. He knows who are and will be His and it's only they to whom He gives "eternal life" (Jhn 10:28; 17:2).

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Notice that when God talked with Cain, he did not try to convince him to be born again in order to not sin in Genesis 4:7. GOD tried to reason with Cain in trying to get him to do what was good vs. doing evil or sin. Why try to reason with someone who is unregenerate on doing that which is good? It makes no sense.

Also, in the Garden of Eden: The serpent (the devil) wanted to convince Eve of the lie that she would not die spiritually if she disobeyed God's command. But GOD told Adam that in the day they ate thereof, they would die. But did they die physically? No. They died spiritually. They once had life spiritually with GOD, and then they died spiritually and they needed to be restored back to GOD via the animal sacrifice.

In fact, do you believe all babies who die go to be with GOD in His kingdom?

I sure do.

So if babies are saved, then that means that they have spiritual life; So when they grow up and fall into sin, they then die spiritually by those sins. This is why they need to accept Jesus as their Savior, seek forgiveness with Him, and believe in His death and resurrection on their behalf in order to have spiritually alive again (just like the Parable of the Prodigal Son)!

Anyways, the point I wanted to make here is that sin separates a person from GOD, and that salvation is conditional. We have to "Continue in the faith, continue in God's grace, continue in his goodness, keep ourselves in the love of GOD, etc." For why are we told to do these things if they are just automatic to being born again or regenerate? It makes no sense.

You said:

Blessings!

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Anyways, may God's love, goodness, peace, and blessings be upon you and your family today (even if we disagree strongly on the topic of Soteriology).

WordSword said:

Believers are not intended to walk within the Law for their righteousness, for it is only Christ and His work that brings one to rebirth and which imputes His righteousness! Surly there is nothing more hindering to Christian spiritual growth (but not to receiving salvation itself) than to misapprehend the intention of the Law concerning its purpose and application (which knowledge will probably not become common enough in Christendom until the translation of the Church)! It has been accurately stated that “The New Testament is "enfolded" in the Old Testament, and the Old Testament is "unfolded" in the New! It must be well understood though, that this has only to do with the individual identification and purpose of each system, and that neither have application to the other beyond the types and shadows of what God will do and has done concerning the salvation of believers.

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us” does not design the motive that the Law is fulfilled in the believer, but that the righteousness—to which the Law directs—“condemn sin” and deliverance in Christ (which “the Law could not do” - Ro 8:3—NC), is fulfilled in the believer! The Law was not intended for deliverance (not even for Israel to whom only it ever applied) but only to identify and reveal guilt of sin, and rather direct one to deliverance (Gal 3:24). It was in the sacrificial ordinances and not obedience to the Decalogue that forgiveness was obtained (Num 15:24-31); which ordinances had only Christ’s sacrifice in mind, and it is here where deliverance is “finished” or completed! The purpose of obedience to the Decalogue was to manifest faith in God and His commands, especially concerning the ordinance of the sin-offering, which alone brought forgiveness.

The same applies to Christian obedience, because obedience does not deliver but manifests there has been deliverance, for there must first be deliverance before than can be true obedience, because it requires the right heart in the obedience (new nature after Christ’s nature - Col 3:10). One walking “in the Spirit” with the “new man” or new nature, glorifies God in manifesting that salvation has been applied to the soul only because of what Christ has done, and this provides for us to ask God for faith in His Son and His work.

Also, please excuse the excessive cementations below, due to what I feel are issue-pertinent, thanks!
NC

Vicarious Law-keeping?​

“Even so through the obedience of One” (Rom 5:19). This was our Lord’s death, as an act of obedience: “He became obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross” (Phl 2:8). He was of course always obedient to His Father, but it cannot be too strongly emphasized that His life before the Cross—His “active obedience,” as it is called, is not in any sense counted to us for righteousness. “I delivered to you,” says Paul, “first of all that Christ died for our sins” (1Cor 15:3).

Before His death He was “holy, guileless, undefiled and separate from sinners” (Heb 7:26). He Himself said, “Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone; but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit” (Jhn 12:24). Do you not see that those who claim that our Lord’s righteous life under Moses’s Law is reckoned to us for our “active righteousness; while His death in which He put away our sins, is, as they claim, the “passive” side, are really leaving you, and the Lord too, under the authority of the Law?

“Justified in His Blood,” and of that alone, reveals the direct lie to the claim that man must have an “active righteousness” (self-works—NC) as well as a “passive righteousness” (Christ’s works—NC). The specious assertion is, that “inasmuch as we have all broken the Law (even though God says that Gentiles were ‘without law’—and those in Christ are not under it) and inasmuch as man cannot by his works himself recover his righteous standing, Christ came and kept the Law in man’s place; Then He went to the Cross, and suffered the penalty of death for man’s guilt so that the result is an ‘active righteousness’ reckoned to man—that is, Christ’s keeping of the Law in man’s place; and second, a ‘passive righteousness,’ which consists of the putting away all guilt by the Blood of Christ.

Now, the awful thing here is the unbelief concerning man’s irrecoverable state before God (self-works being applied for redemption and not because of redemption is the same as demonstrating works-salvation. It’s Christ only, as our works should show—NC). For not only must Christ’s Blood be shed in expiation for our guilt; but we had to die with Christ. We were connected with the old Adam; and the old man—all we had and were in Adam, must be crucified—if we were to be “joined to Another, even to Him that was raised from the dead” (all of which are far from the workings of the Law – Ro 8:3—NC). Theological teaching since the Reformation has never set forth clearly our utter end in our death with Christ on the Cross (which answers to the reason why so much attention is given to the admixture of Judaism and Christianity, i.e. the Judeo-Christian concept. This is acceptable if the meaning here is proselytizing from Judaism to Christianity, which was the initial intent of meaning. But to conceive of amalgamating the two systems would result, if were possible, in detracting force from both—NC).

The fatal result of this terrible error is to leave the Law as claimant over those in Christ: for “law has dominion over a man as long as he liveth” (Rom 7:1). Unless you are able to believe in your heart that you died with Christ, that you old man was crucified with Him (Rom 6:6), and that you were buried, and that your history before god in Adam the first came to an utter end at Calvary, you will never get free from the claims of Law upon your conscience. Such is the plight of Reformed theology. Both Calvinists and Arminians think that the flesh (old man; Adamic sinful nature of one’s spirit—NC) is not so bad that it cannot be acted on for God by Christ using the Law of God and giving it power through the Spirit (I am still researching if these two doctrines believe this claim—NC).

The ascended Lord Jesus Christ is our righteousness. His earthly Life under the Law is not our righteousness. We have no connection with a Christ on earth and under Law. We are expressly told in Romans 7:1-6 that even Jewish believers who have been under the Law were “made dead to the Law by the body of Christ, that they might be joined to Another, even to Him who was raised from the dead” (Rom 7:4).

It is only the desperate legality of man’s heart, his self-confidence, that make him drag in and cling to the Law—even though Christ must fulfill it for him (leaving self out of any credit for salvation is the only true faith within Christ-only-salvation—NC)! Vicarious Law-keeping is Galatian heresy! Christianity begins with the resurrection (spiritual resurrection from sin and death—NC).


- W R N (William R Newell 1927–1992)

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We are called to walk in the footsteps of Jesus (every step). When one receives Jesus as their Lord and Savior and asks Him to come into their heart ... He begins His changing work in them ... being conformed to His image ... and this is a life-long process.

1 Peter 2:21

For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.

Colossians 2:6

Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him,


1 John 2:5-6

But whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

John 10:27

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Micah 6:8

He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

1 John 2:6

Whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

2 Corinthians 3:18

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

Colossians 3:10

And have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

Ephesians 4:24

And to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

2 Corinthians 4:16

So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.

May the Lord help us every day to walk with Him. Amen

WordSword said:

To me, in the phrase "alive again," is reference to us going from being spiritually dead, to being spiritually alive, because Scripture shows one can only transform from one to the other a single time, e.g. one cannot go from saved to unsaved and then to saved again, which would be the inference if spiritual transformation (conversion) of anyone could occur more than once.

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You cannot be made "alive AGAIN" if you were never "alive" spiritually at a prior time beforehand. That would be like Rick saying, "I am happy AGAIN" which implies that Rick was happy before at a previous point in time. To use the word "AGAIN" means a repeat of something. I walked in the sun AGAIN, which implies I did it a previous time, as well. If it was my first time walking in the sun, I cannot say I am walking in the sun AGAIN. That would be a contradiction or improper grammar.

Besides James 5:19-20 also says the same thing as the Parable of the Prodigal Son, as well.

WordSword said:

To me it's spiritual reference to a literal work of God. I see raised again is reference to being born into physical life the first time, which is being "dead in sin" (Col 2:13). Then to be spiritually reborn required another death (spiritually), and raised again to life in the Lord Jesus.


Here the word "convert" is in the sense of "divert" (same here Luke 22:32), for only Christ converts in the spiritual sense. In my opinion, the two passages refer to one who may be immature and thus easily swayed, until more understanding is reached. If the one swayed cannot be diverted back it's due to not yet being saved, because they would have entered into "eternal death."

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Well, I just do not see your interpretation on 1 John 1:7, and Luke 15:24 as being plausible, friend. The word "IF" in 1 John 1:7 suggests a possibility and not a guarantee. The words "alive AGAIN" in Luke 15:24 is clearly referring to regaining spiritual life for a second time. Hence, the word "AGAIN." I also have shown you that the Bible says that we are to: "Continue in the faith, Continue in God's grace, "Continue in His goodness," etc.; But this doesn't seem to really mean anything to you. It should refute what you believe, but you are not able to see what these verses are plainly saying. So I am moving on.

Good evening to you in the Lord;
And may you please be well.