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I don't have to know that. Some of my arguments are based on YOUR assumptions. If you believe all these so-called cults are real Christians, just say so.
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You're not a prophet? Then you're not mature!
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Yes ... and I could tell you at least one thing about my friend ... which doesn't emanate from the scriptures ...
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Is there any history ... of the Jews previous to the fall of Jerusalem ... which posits that they didn't believe their scripture was inerrant ?
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topher694
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@A_Thinker , I admire your patience. I think you have done a fine job making your case.
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Jesus has warned us to be careful who we follow ... whether they come with miraculous works or not.
So then, do we listen and heed Jesus' words as recorded in the scriptures ... or do we see how the next revelation sounds to us ?
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@A_Thinker said,
You seem to want to avoid the conclusion of a self-authenticating voice. But Adam and Eve didn't 'check it out with Scripture', nor Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Moses. They had no Scripture. And even the later men who DID have it, they still needed a self-authenticating Voice to authenticate Scripture - to persuade them it was the inerrant word of God. That's called the Inward Witness.
You seem to want to avoid the conclusion of a self-authenticating voice. But Adam and Eve didn't 'check it out with Scripture', nor Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Moses. They had no Scripture. And even the later men who DID have it, they still needed a self-authenticating Voice to authenticate Scripture - to persuade them it was the inerrant word of God. That's called the Inward Witness.
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That was my question to you. I've already answered it on the epistemology thread.
(Sigh). Should I, or not, obey the next burning bush? If so, on what basis?
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A_Thinker,
Put yourselves in the shoes of a prophet. You hear a voice telling you about a future event (foretelling). If the Voice isn't self-authenticating:
(1) How do you know the message to be true? Can you check it out with Scripture?
(2) How you even know yourself to be a true prophet, and not the victim of a deceiver?
Put yourselves in the shoes of a prophet. You hear a voice telling you about a future event (foretelling). If the Voice isn't self-authenticating:
(1) How do you know the message to be true? Can you check it out with Scripture?
(2) How you even know yourself to be a true prophet, and not the victim of a deceiver?
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A_Thinker,
Abraham hears a voice commanding him to slaughter his son. What would you do in his shoes, if the Voice isn't self-authenticating?
Abraham hears a voice commanding him to slaughter his son. What would you do in his shoes, if the Voice isn't self-authenticating?
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It's not a question of what they believed. Anyone can believe in a false religion. A rational man will have sufficient warrant for what he believes, especially about religion. You're saying Scripture is the basis of knowledge. That makes zero sense because first I need a way (an authoritative basis) to KNOW whether Scripture is the inerrant word of God This authoritative basis - whatever it is - is my highest authority, because it is on that basis I decide whether to accept or reject a book such the Koran, the Book of Mormon, or the Bible.
Thus the claim that Scripture is my highest authority is pure nonsense.
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The scriptures don't speak much of an "inward witness" (i.e. self-authenticating voice). Jesus said that our hearts are wicked ... and not to be trusted.
Mark 7:20-23
And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."
Jeremiah said the same ...
Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
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Actually it does speak of the witness in our hearts. You might want to do a study on the Greek word for 'witness'. The Reformed theologians didn't fabricate it.
Scripture doesn't speak of 'Trinity' by the way. You're making a moot point.
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It should be a simple question.
What do YOU know of Christ ... which is not found in the scriptures ?
What do YOU know of Christ ... which is not found in the scriptures ?
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A_Thinker,
This is just like our previous discussion about maturity. You ignore most of my posts and, even when you do respond, it's usually tangential to the thrust of my objections.
This is just like our previous discussion about maturity. You ignore most of my posts and, even when you do respond, it's usually tangential to the thrust of my objections.
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Him. I told you, the human mind can't find Him in Scripture, for reasons that I gave you. You need a direct revelation.
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Not exactly.
Jesus didn't tell his disciples he was the Son of God, nor did he tell them to leave their possessions immediately.
Jesus was baptised in the river Jordan, at which the Spirit descended on him like a dove and God's voice spoke from heaven. After this he was taken into the wilderness for 40 days. When he came out of the wilderness, Matthew, Mark and Luke say that he started preaching, Matthew 4:12-17, Mark 1:14-15, Luke 4:14-30. Luke then tells that Jesus healed many people and then he called his first disciples, Luke 5:1-11. John tells us that 2 of Jesus' disciples had first followed John the Baptist, but when Jesus walked past and they heard John say "Look, the Lamb of God"; they left John and followed Jesus. One of these disciples was called Andrew, and he went to find his brother, Simon, and told him that he had found the Messiah, John 1:35-42.
It is very likely that the disciples would have heard of, heard or seen Jesus before he called them.
No, not if I knew of, or had heard things about, the person who was asking me to follow them.
I'm certain people were talking about Jesus before he even began his ministry - son of an unmarried mother who had completely amazed the teachers of the law in the temple at the age of 12, and later started walking round the countryside preaching instead of carrying on the family carpentry business.
The disciples may have seen the dove at Jesus' baptism, heard, what they thought was, thunder and later heard Jesus preaching repentance. They may have heard of him being thrown out the synagogue and nearly stoned to death - Luke then says that he healed many people. Andrew had even heard John the baptist's testimony about Jesus.
Jesus didn't.
He was baptised in the Jordan, started to teach, healed people and then called various men to follow him. Natural human curiosity would probably have led them to do that; they almost certainly didn't realise then that it would be a lifelong, and life-changing, commitment.
They didn't know that Jesus was the Messiah until much later - after he had healed many people, bought a couple of dead children back to life, walked on water, fed 5000+ people and so on. Even then, they didn't work it out for themselves, it was revealed to them by God.
That's exactly what I've been asking you.
My answer is "if it is found in, or lines up with, Scripture". You seem not to like that answer.
For you, maybe.
I just read and trust the Bible.
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The scriptures say that God's Spirit testifies to our spirits ... that we are the children of God. I think that's in Romans.
I don't know of any other scriptural example of this idea ...
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I've given too many examples of the need for a self-authenticating voice. You've got a huge burden of proof unmet as yet.
So if i heard some positive rumors about a man claiming to be God, I should drop all when He calls and follow Him. Um..not a cogent epistemology.
That's funny because if this were a debate with a JW, you would insist that Jesus DID make messianic and/or deistic claims of Himself.
I like answers that work. See my prev last several posts for scenarios that don't fit the Sola Scriptura model.
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