How many ex-Christians are there here on CF and reason for leaving Christianity?

FireDragon76 said:

I don't agree with that perspective anymore.

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What, that we don't need forgiveness from God? How are we to meditate away guilt? Buddhism has karma and consequences too, and reincarnation into lower realms or states of being. People that don't feel guilt are called sociopaths.

Chris V++ said:

People that don't feel guilt are called sociopaths.

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Not necessarily. There are people who are better at not feeling excess guilt or avoiding feeling guilty for something they shouldn't. I rarely feel any guilt. I would have to do something pretty selfish to feel much guilt. Even if you consider the state of humanity from a Christian viewpoint of sin, you don't have to feel guilty about it, but just shrug and work towards your goal of moving forward dealing with it.

Chris V++ said:

I can't go through life thinking I could be cut down by some technicality, failure to fulfill an obligation or perform a necessary ritual. People can drive themselves crazy over worry. That's the alternative to OSAS, since we know how wretched we can be, or we can stop believing in judgement altogether.

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^This.

When I was a practicing Christian, OSAS put the power
behind my salvation back in God's hands where it
belonged. Otherwise, I'd never know how many Good
Works Per Minute (GWPMs) I was supposed to be running
at in order to be assured that my faith was real and
therefore my salvation was still intact, making the
whole thing just another version of salvation-by-works,
sneaking in through the back door in disguise.

Of course, now, it's no longer my circus, nor my
elephants. I'm trusting that God (however that might be
defined) has everyone's backs and that all will be well for
everyone in the end. The result? A peace which passes
all understanding (which is why so many don't
understand and therefore try to argue against it… just
watch… ).


-

I suppose OSAS didn't apply to Lucifer/Satan/etc.

Chris V++ said:

What, that we don't need forgiveness from God? How are we to meditate away guilt?

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Why does it need to be mediated away? Acceptance starts with self-acceptance. Every human being has the potential to do gravely harmful things, given the right conditions, understanding that leads to a lack of judgement and acceptance. As Master Thitch Nhat Hanh once said, when somebody hurts you, their suffering is spilling over and they need help... not punishment. Why is it so different with God? Why would God be so "offended" that he has to create a cosmic torture chamber to punish people forever and ever? That is simply not wise or noble.

Buddhism has karma and consequences too, and reincarnation into lower realms or states of being. People that don't feel guilt are called sociopaths.

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You can put labels on stuff all you want, I guess, but my motivation for not killing or stealing from my neighbors has nothing to do with anything particularly religious in nature. I don't kill or steal because those things are harmful and I have a sense of empathy, it has nothing to do with a desire to conform to an external code of justice.

And BTW, I consider myself primarily a humanist, even if I am influenced by Zen Buddhism and practice meditation. Which means I don't put alot of stock into things like karma and reincarnation in a literal sense (I don't believe in subjective immortality, necessarily, in any form). So that isn't a motivation for my behavior, either.

Buddhism, even the more devotional forms, does not consider human beings evil by nature. At most we are foolish, and the Dharma is the cure for that foolishness. But the idea that we need to be punished for just being born leads to abusive mentalities. True healing happens when we deal with ourselves and others gently, with kindness. Any god that can't appreciate that is not worthy of my devotion.

RayJeena said:

^This.

When I was a practicing Christian, OSAS put the power
behind my salvation back in God's hands where it
belonged. Otherwise, I'd never know how many Good
Works Per Minute (GWPMs) I was supposed to be running
at in order to be assured that my faith was real and
therefore my salvation was still intact, making the
whole thing just another version of salvation-by-works,
sneaking in through the back door in disguise.

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There's something like this in Japanese Shin Buddhism. But it's also recognized as symbolic and not as reified as the typical Christian understands it. We are carried along by wisdom and compassion, and for some, that is personified in the Buddha of Infiinite Light. But it's not necessary to understand that in a reified sense of being some guy in the heavens. The Buddha is within you.

I guess if I believe in God at all now, it's more like that. I do not believe biblical Christian symbols speak to me very deeply in that regard, much less the Augustinian notion that we are all naughty and deserve to be punished. But if you want to talk about an abstract, philosophical God, some kind of metaphysical ground... in that sense, I am not an atheist.

FireDragon76 said:

There's something like this in Japanese Shin Buddhism. But it's also recognized as symbolic and not as reified as the typical Christian understands it. We are carried along by wisdom and compassion, and for some, that is personified in the Buddha of Infiinite Light. But it's not necessary to understand that in a reified sense of being some guy in the heavens. The Buddha is within you.

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I used to be a Pure Land Buddhist. Basically if you said the nembutsu you were assured salvation in your Western Pureland after death by your faith in the Amida Buddha.

ananda said:

I suppose OSAS didn't apply to Lucifer/Satan/etc.

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No, There was a rebellion. I guess that means they had free will too. They also presumably had more direct contact so faith wasn't an issue for them. Their sin was pride.
Paul does say we are supposed to stay the course and finish the race, so who knows for sure. But that doesn't mean we can't claim an assurance of salvation in anticipation of staying the course (I know that sounds like a contradiction)

Chris V++ said:

No, There was a rebellion. I guess that means they had free will too. They also presumably had more direct contact so faith wasn't an issue for them. Their sin was pride.
Paul does say we are supposed to stay the course and finish the race, so who knows for sure. But that doesn't mean we can't claim an assurance of salvation in anticipation of staying the course (I know that sounds like a contradiction)

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Yes, it does.

In a sense, they (the demons) had to have faith too, because - presumably - they didn't possess direct knowledge of God's omniscience, omnipotence, etc.

RayJeena said:

Of course, now, it's no longer my circus, nor my
elephants. I'm trusting that God (however that might be
defined) has everyone's backs and that all will be well for
everyone in the end. The result? A peace which passes
all understanding (which is why so many don't
understand and therefore try to argue against it… just
watch… ).

Click to expand...

Some Christians believe that even after death there is opportunity at salvation (up until the final judgment) and that the Christian is more accountable than the non Christian. Like David was saying earlier, God isn't out to set us up for failure and takes no pleasure in our consequences for our shortcomings. I've heard it said that in the OT God's wrath was usually against His own people, and he used the non believers as instruments of His wrath.

TheOldWays said:

Not necessarily. There are people who are better at not feeling excess guilt or avoiding feeling guilty for something they shouldn't. I rarely feel any guilt. I would have to do something pretty selfish to feel much guilt. Even if you consider the state of humanity from a Christian viewpoint of sin, you don't have to feel guilty about it, but just shrug and work towards your goal of moving forward dealing with it.

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We do have grace to assuage our guilt, so I don't think we are supposed to go around feeling guilty all the time either, but we are supposed to be humble, since we understand we are forgiven of much.

Chris V++ said:

Some Christians believe that even after death there is opportunity at salvation (up until the final judgment) and that the Christian is more accountable than the non Christian. Like David was saying earlier, God isn't out to set us up for failure and takes no pleasure in our consequences for our shortcomings. I've heard it said that in the OT God's wrath was usually against His own people, and he used the non believers as instruments of His wrath.

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Psalms 17:13.

Arise, O Lord!
confront him, bring him to his knees;
Rescue my soul from the wicked (who serve as)
Your sword.

?

Chris V++ said:

What, that we don't need forgiveness from God?

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Some would agree, but I sure don't. I'd say that it's ourselves that we need to forgive.

How are we to meditate away guilt? Buddhism has karma and consequences too, and reincarnation into lower realms or states of being.

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Karma, the way I understand it, is not built on guilt. It's more of an awareness of one's actions.

People that don't feel guilt are called sociopaths.

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I think sociopaths are more of a lack of empathy, which really is pretty wide spread in our society. It's the lack of empathy that leads to not being able to feel guilt.

dlamberth said:

Some would agree, but I sure don't. I'd say that it's ourselves that we need to forgive.


Karma, the way I understand it, is not built on guilt. It's more of an awareness of one's actions.

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.

It doesn't perfectly fit with western notions of justice.

I don't agree that if you don't believe in faith alone or in OSAS it means that you believe in work-based salvation. A saint is not necessary someone who avoids sins but does their best to life in trusting and loving God.

I don't conform to east or west. I take whatever and however much that I can. Any Goods that someone has I will take them and I will make them mine. I run over the walls and overtake the cities.

I do not dwell in the mire looking at the worst of things. I see the use of the compost, that it feeds the Tree of Life. If I was a tiny little thing, if I was but a vapor, then there would be no need for me to try to become some kind of image of God.

David Cabrera said:

I don't agree that if you don't believe in faith alone or in OSAS it means that you believe in work-based salvation.

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Or perhaps, to add another option, coming at a relationship with the Divine where images of Salvation is not what it's about.

A saint is not necessary someone who avoids sins but does their best to life in trusting and loving God.

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I've come across a number of Saint's who are atheist. Just saying.

dlamberth said:

Or perhaps, to add another option, coming at a relationship with the Divine where images of Salvation is not what it's about.


I've come across a number of Saint's who are atheist. Just saying.

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What's your definition of "saint"?

David Cabrera said:

What's your definition of "saint"?

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I don't believe that Saint's can be defined. It's like defining Love, it can't be done. But I do come across people who have a special way of giving their Loving Soul to the service of those in need. They are forgiving, compassionate, empathetic and full of wisdom that has a way of touching those around them.

Robban said:

Psalms 17:13.

Arise, O Lord!
confront him, bring him to his knees;
Rescue my soul from the wicked (who serve as)
Your sword.

?

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I didn't mean King David lol I was talking about the cf poster David Cabrera.

Maybe an example of God using unbelievers would be the Babylonian destruction of Solomon's Temple.