Your Thoughts on Creation & Evolution

Kylie said:

I think "us" is a word most people learn fairly early in their lives. If it's meaning is still unknown to you, then I'd suggest your communication skills are insufficient to be able to properly participate in this discussion.

Click to expand...

God the Father is speaking to Lord God and the Holy Spirit since it takes ALL three to create eternally. Amen?

pitabread said:

In the context of Speedwell's question, this response seems to imply that you consider yourself the only Christian capable of understanding Genesis on the entire planet. Since no other Christians seem to share your particular views.

Do you have any examples of anyone who agrees with you? Anyone at all?

Click to expand...

Sure. Pillars4 and Awoman50 @AOL.com have posted such. Many others have posted privately of their agreement.

Bungle_Bear said:

I have. You haven't. Perhaps you should read it before trying to disagree with what it says.

Click to expand...

Was it written by a mortal man?

Kylie said:

No.

If I go out with my husband and daughter, I might refer to the three as "us", but that doesn't mean I'm talking about myself and my work colleagues. Likewise, it doesn't follow that the use of the word "us" in the Bible refers to the trinity. It could very well be a leftover from polytheism.

Click to expand...

Not so since it is confirmed by these 3 uses of the word. Genesis 1:26 Genesis 5:1-2 and John 14:16

Aman777 said:

Sure. Pillars4 and Awoman50 @AOL.com have posted such.

Click to expand...

AOL? Are we back in the 90's?

Many others have posted privately of their agreement.

Click to expand...

But not publicly.

Aman777 said:

Sure. Pillars4 and Awoman50 @AOL.com have posted such. Many others have posted privately of their agreement.

Click to expand...

No, I meant something more substantial--a denominational statement of doctrine, a theological article or text, something like that, not just one or two guys who were on the internet a long time ago according to you.

Aman777 said:

Yes. Genesis 2:19 lists beasts of the earth, and birds and Genesis 2:20 lists cattle. Lord Jesus also made the creeping things. Genesis 6:7



I think I see why you are confused. Here is the verse:

Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after His kind, and cattle after Their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after His kind: and God saw that it was good.

The comma was added to what was written in Hebrew. The mortal translator added the commas, which is obvious when you see the word "and" eliminates the need for such punctuation.



The translators were Humans, thus subject to error. Amen?

Click to expand...

Oh, that's priceless. The translators, whose quirky use of English is the foundation for your exegesis, may have made an error but you haven't?

Remember your statement that if somebody demonstrated you were wrong you'd change your view? Prove that wasn't a lie.

the iconoclast said:

Hey hey

So we need to know what 'us' is in context to in this passage. How can we know who us is - in context here?

Click to expand...

We can't. So let's just read into it whatever we want it to be, then declare it to be the truth, mmkay?

But it doesnt mean it isnt either.

How could 'us' be a left over from polytheism? Need a reference.

Cheers

Click to expand...

People used to be polytheistic. This is, I thought, common knowledge.

Speedwell said:

No, I meant something more substantial--a denominational statement of doctrine, a theological article or text, something like that, not just one or two guys who were on the internet a long time ago according to you.

Click to expand...

The only credentials I have ever claimed is that I am but a man who is living in the last days of this Earth. I support my views with the agreement of Scripture with science, history, genetics and math and no one can refute me. Amen?

Bungle_Bear said:

Oh, that's priceless. The translators, whose quirky use of English is the foundation for your exegesis, may have made an error but you haven't?

Remember your statement that if somebody demonstrated you were wrong you'd change your view? Prove that wasn't a lie.

Click to expand...

I would IF you could explain where the commas came from, which you obviously cannot because after each , is the word "and". Someone obviously added the commas to God's Holy Word. It's too bad you cannot understand. 1Co 2:14

Aman777 said:

I would IF you could explain where the commas came from, which you obviously cannot because after each , is the word "and". Someone obviously added the commas to God's Holy Word. It's too bad you cannot understand. 1Co 2:14

Click to expand...

So what? They added the words "his" and "their" too. And YOU added capitals to those words.

Aman777 said:

no one can refute me.

Click to expand...

Just the fact you cherry-pick things you think agree with you and ignore everything else is a refutation in and of itself.

Aman777 said:

God the Father is speaking to Lord God and the Holy Spirit since it takes ALL three to create eternally. Amen?

Click to expand...

Citation required.

Aman777 said:

The only credentials I have ever claimed is that I am but a man who is living in the last days of this Earth. I support my views with the agreement of Scripture with science, history, genetics and math and no one can refute me. Amen?

Click to expand...

People have been saying that they are in the last days of planet Earth for centuries. They've all been wrong, what makes you think you're right?

Aman777 said:

I would IF you could explain where the commas came from, which you obviously cannot because after each , is the word "and". Someone obviously added the commas to God's Holy Word. It's too bad you cannot understand. 1Co 2:14

Click to expand...

The big problem you now have is that you have painted yourself into a corner by claiming the translators added to the bible in such away as to alter its meaning (something which is specifically called out as being a sin). Do you want to stick to your claim that the translators sinned and that they have altered the bible? If you do, then you also need to accept that your exegesis is founded on a faulty translation and is, therefore, worthless and wrong. Or do you want to withdraw that claim and accept that the commas do not alter the meaning of the bible in any way? In that case your exegesis is refuted as I have demonstrated. Either way, you lose.

Aman777 will respond with more dishonest dancing, backtracking and handwaving in 3-2-1........

At the time when the King James bible was produced it was normal to separate each item in a list by a comma including before the 'and'. So the commas were not wrong. It is since then that it became good style to omit the comma before the 'and.'

Hey hey 46and2

Lets check out the substance of our conversation.

I asked you "Why is it incredulous that the God of Abraham created the Earth?".

Your reply was "Why is it incredulous that the God of Lightning creates bolts of electricity in the sky?"

When pressed as to why this reply relates to my quetion you gave me 4 examples - you may consider absurd - and then asked "How would you feel about this man's claims? Would you question his sincerity? Would you question his sanity? Why would you disbelieve him?"

I mean its not an eloquent trap but it is a form of what is known as framing.

You paint a picture, you say this is so and so, you say i do not like this picture or who would like this picture and you throw away the painting - that you constructed.

In this case you have tried to bind the existance of one God and arguments for one to another God.

You did so, as you wanted to try and use my reply re this lightning God to justify your views re God of Abraham.

You try to set me up. The intended conclusion being that because i cant believe in this god you made up and its claims therefore the God of Abraham does not exist.

What you think?

46AND2 said:

Suppose you were talking to someone who was trying to convince you that his god, the God of Lightning, was real. He gave the following proof to you that it was so:

Click to expand...

Which lightning God is he or you referring to - as Thor and Zeus do not meet your conditions in examples 1-4. Historical and traditional narrative, and roles of the two do not conform with these examples.

After reading your examples i would like to know who i am dealing with. Is this unfair of me to ask? Who is this lightning God?

46AND2 said:

1. Sometimes, when he prays to his god, he asks for a sign to let him know that he is making the right decision. Indeed, one stormy night, he asked his god to give him a sign to let him know if the girl he was dating at the time was "the one" and immediately the sky lit up like it was daytime with a bolt of lightning. He has been happily married, now, for 30 years.

2. His god is everywhere, and let's you know that he is with you always, from powering your headlights that keep you safe on the road at night, to touching you with a playful lick of static electricity, to entertaining you by powering your TV.


3. His life was once saved by his god after he had a heart attack. His heart was stopped and CPR was not working, so an EMT trained co-worker of his shocked him with a defibrillator and he was resurrected.


4. His god even revealed his face to him once when he was looking at a plasma globe, and the pattern, for a split second, revealed the image of his face.


How would you feel about this man's claims? Would you question his sincerity? Would you question his sanity? Why would you disbelieve him?

Click to expand...

My opinion of this mans claim? He is worshiping an inferior entity and has not been given an adequate offer. My God has an offer for him, what can this God of lightning offer me?

Would i question his sincerity? Would i question his trustworthiness? I would like to get to him better before i could trust him as - i dont know about you - I do not readily trust any stranger.

Would i question his sanity? Dont know, no one has ever said anything like that to me about electricity.

I assume electricity is a physical phenomena associated with the presence and motion of matter that has a property of electric charge.

I guess It depends on how he spoke, what body language he used, any other ideas he may have. How would you define sane?

Why would i disbelieve him? Heads up my dear im a Christian, i believe that spirits exist and theres a supernatural.

These Gods may exist, i just dont worship them.

Check this out. I neither believe or disbelieve there is a lightning God, i couldnt care. I have a relationship with God through the Holy Spirit. Wanna know ask.

I have one better ill give you my testimony.

I was in church many years ago, i was with 2 older ladies, we were praying together and i was having 'hands laid on me'. These women were Spirit filled.

All of a sudden i went into a vision. I had my eyes closed, slumped forward and in deep prayed. I was in a fixed state. I found myself soaring like a bird above the vast land. I could feel the wind and a sense of altitude - im scared of heights so i practically froze.

After what felt like minutes a mustered up the strength to look around and started to gain some form of comfort. I noticed an active volcano in the distance but did not think too much about it - dude im flying!!!

I started to realise i was heading straight for this spewing volcano and started to become concerned. I couldnt move my body or redirect my trajectory, I was trying to toss my body and do what ever i could. No good!

Just as i was about to hit the lava i cried out 'Jesus' (save me). Instantly i stopped yards from the lava, i can remember the sensation of heat and a sense of fatigue and relief. I was pulled up - like a beam or like invisible hands - and put back into the sky and continued to fly.

Once i started to fly again the 2nd last thing i saw, where hills amongst mountain tips with someform of ruins or old buildings.

Then suddenly 'my screen' was burned and i was presented with new surroundings. I saw 3 silhouettes of human like figures but the 2 outside ones were overlaped with the middle one - which was larger than the other 2.

There was fire everywhere. It seemed though i was standing in this fire with the 3. I could hear the crackle and sizzle of fire, all i could do was stare at the silhouette in front of me. I dont think i even blinked, it was speechless and frozen.

Then the fire started to simmer down and i 'came to'. The ladies looked concerned, their eyes were wide open with a look of shock. They asked me what happened and am i ok. I told them what happened casually and went back into the congression.

I was changed, i felt completely different in my mind. It felt like i had something in my heart and i knew how to orientate my heart to God.

I was given the Holy Spirit!!!

Now i know that you will say personal experience are not verifiable proof but indulge me, what do you think about this?

Whether you accept my testimony or not, just know, this actually happened to me and has effected me so much that here i am speaking with you.

Cheers

Kylie said:

People have been saying that they are in the last days of planet Earth for centuries. They've all been wrong, what makes you think you're right?

Click to expand...

Not to mention people in past centuries have faced far worse conditions than we face today and thus have had far more reason to think they lived in the last days.

Comparatively speaking, the current generation is quite well off.

the iconoclast said:

Hey hey 46and2

Lets check out the substance of our conversation.

I asked you "Why is it incredulous that the God of Abraham created the Earth?".

Your reply was "Why is it incredulous that the God of Lightning creates bolts of electricity in the sky?"

When pressed as to why this reply relates to my quetion you gave me 4 examples - you may consider absurd - and then asked "How would you feel about this man's claims? Would you question his sincerity? Would you question his sanity? Why would you disbelieve him?"

I mean its not an eloquent trap but it is a form of what is known as framing.

You paint a picture, you say this is so and so, you say i do not like this picture or who would like this picture and you throw away the painting - that you constructed.

In this case you have tried to bind the existance of one God and arguments for one to another God.

You did so, as you wanted to try and use my reply re this lightning God to justify your views re God of Abraham.

You try to set me up. The intended conclusion being that because i cant believe in this god you made up and its claims therefore the God of Abraham does not exist.

What you think?

Click to expand...

I did not try to "set you up." You wanted me to explain what my question had to do with yours. And look here, now you "almost" understand my answer to your question, since you got the gist of my illustration.

Where you are slightly misunderstanding is that it is not my intention to establish that your god is just as unbelievable as my hypothetical situation, but rather to illustrate that our incredulity toward creationists (the original subset to which I was replying) is based on the "proofs" that creationists give for their beliefs. Electricity is a well understood natural phenomenon. There are much better and rational explanations for those 4 "proofs" I described for my hypothetical god of lightning believer.

So it is for those Christians who insist that the earth was created 6000 years ago, and evolution never occurred. The opposite of these things is well understood through scientific discoveries. Trivially so. Such that it is just as odd to us that people believe the earth is only 6000 years old as it would be if someone thought that being shocked by static electricity was the god of lightning tickling him.

Sure, maybe the Christian god exists, but the arguments used by creationists to try to show that are what cause the incredulity.

Which lightning God is he or you referring to - as Thor and Zeus do not meet your conditions in examples 1-4. Historical and traditional narrative, and roles of the two do not conform with these examples.

After reading your examples i would like to know who i am dealing with. Is this unfair of me to ask? Who is this lightning God?



My opinion of this mans claim? He is worshiping an inferior entity and has not been given an adequate offer. My God has an offer for him, what can this God of lightning offer me?

Would i question his sincerity? Would i question his trustworthiness? I would like to get to him better before i could trust him as - i dont know about you - I do not readily trust any stranger.

Would i question his sanity? Dont know, no one has ever said anything like that to me about electricity.

I assume electricity is a physical phenomena associated with the presence and motion of matter that has a property of electric charge.

I guess It depends on how he spoke, what body language he used, any other ideas he may have. How would you define sane?

Why would i disbelieve him? Heads up my dear im a Christian, i believe that spirits exist and theres a supernatural.

These Gods may exist, i just dont worship them.

Check this out. I neither believe or disbelieve there is a lightning God, i couldnt care. I have a relationship with God through the Holy Spirit. Wanna know ask.

I have one better ill give you my testimony.

I was in church many years ago, i was with 2 older ladies, we were praying together and i was having 'hands laid on me'. These women were Spirit filled.

All of a sudden i went into a vision. I had my eyes closed, slumped forward and in deep prayed. I was in a fixed state. I found myself soaring like a bird above the vast land. I could feel the wind and a sense of altitude - im scared of heights so i practically froze.

After what felt like minutes a mustered up the strength to look around and started to gain some form of comfort. I noticed an active volcano in the distance but did not think too much about it - dude im flying!!!

I started to realise i was heading straight for this spewing volcano and started to become concerned. I couldnt move my body or redirect my trajectory, I was trying to toss my body and do what ever i could. No good!

Just as i was about to hit the lava i cried out 'Jesus' (save me). Instantly i stopped yards from the lava, i can remember the sensation of heat and a sense of fatigue and relief. I was pulled up - like a beam or like invisible hands - and put back into the sky and continued to fly.

Once i started to fly again the 2nd last thing i saw, where hills amongst mountain tips with someform of ruins or old buildings.

Then suddenly 'my screen' was burned and i was presented with new surroundings. I saw 3 silhouettes of human like figures but the 2 outside ones were overlaped with the middle one - which was larger than the other 2.

There was fire everywhere. It seemed though i was standing in this fire with the 3. I could hear the crackle and sizzle of fire, all i could do was stare at the silhouette in front of me. I dont think i even blinked, it was speechless and frozen.

Then the fire started to simmer down and i 'came to'. The ladies looked concerned, their eyes were wide open with a look of shock. They asked me what happened and am i ok. I told them what happened casually and went back into the congression.

I was changed, i felt completely different in my mind. It felt like i had something in my heart and i knew how to orientate my heart to God.

I was given the Holy Spirit!!!

Now i know that you will say personal experience are not verifiable proof but indulge me, what do you think about this?

Whether you accept my testimony or not, just know, this actually happened to me and has effected me so much that here i am speaking with you.

Cheers

Click to expand...

You have given me your testimony before. Personal experiences are rarely convincing to anyone other the person who experienced them. Sure maybe it happened for the reason you think it did, and maybe there is another explanation. If I were to believe the testimonies of all people who describe them to me, of all religions, alien abductions, ghost sightings, and whatever else, there would be VERY conflicting and contradictory ideas. They can't all be right.

Aman777 said:

I support my views with the agreement of Scripture with science, history, genetics and math and no one can refute me. Amen?

Click to expand...

I think I missed those, been away for a while. Links?