we are ALL PREDESTINED

The Righterzpen · Sep 9, 2019

renniks said:
Well, he says he is not willing that any perish, so you can argue that with him.

We've been through this one at least 3 times and you keep misquoting the verse! "God is long suffering TO USWARD not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

The verse is addressed to people who claim to believe. It does not say God is long suffering to all. He's not long suffering to all.

We were just talking about the flood - and remember my question - if these people might at some point in the future repent; (because according to your theology they have free will) then why'd God destroy them?

Your answer basically was "God got fed up." And so if that was the case; then either free will is a lie or God is not long suffering? Which is it?

And you say "calvinism" turns God into a monster?

renniks said:
And God is love. It's not one of his attributes, it's who he is. Once you get that, you can't believe God wants anyone to go to hell.

So according to you; God is like grandpa sitting in his rocking chair. He's so loving and gives everyone all his love. He wouldn't hurt a fly.

Yet you can't deny that people go to hell and if God allows that to happen, then what happens has superseded God's desire. What does that say about God? He's either all loving but not omnipotent; or He's.... lazy? If He desires something that He refrains Himself from causing to come to pass, when He's certainly capable of causing it to come to pass; why would He do that?

You think that's a demonstration of love? What kind of love does that demonstrate? My kid is cold and hungry. I got $2000. in the bank to go buy him clothing and food. I certainly want him to be warm and not hungry; but I'm not going to take any action to make sure that happens.

renniks said:
Sometimes I do. I find Calvinism destroys God's love.

I'm sorry dude; your understanding of God's love aint love!

The Righterzpen · Sep 9, 2019

corinth77777 said:
Good information...I read someone say....according to....can mean "into" his purposes

Could be? I'd have to look it up.

renniks · Sep 9, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
We've been through this one at least 3 times and you keep misquoting the verse! "God is long suffering TO USWARD not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

The verse is addressed to people who claim to believe. It does not say God is long suffering to all. He's not long suffering to all.

So, you are saying this verse only apply to believers? How does that make any sense in your theology? Haven't eternally secure believers already repented? Why would he say they have to come to repentance, when according to your system, all their sins, past, present and future are forgiven? The verse doesn't make any sense if you apply it to people who have already believed, especially if you believe in eternal security.

The Righterzpen · Sep 9, 2019

renniks said:
So, you are saying this verse only apply to believers? How does that make any sense in your theology? Haven't eternally secure believers already repented? Why would he say they have to come to repentance, when according to your system, all their sins, past, present and future are forgiven? The verse doesn't make any sense if you apply it to people who have already believed, especially if you believe in eternal security.

Not all the "us ward" have come to repentance. Again, it doesn't day "long suffering to all, not willing that any should perish..." So who's the "us ward"? You'd have to resolve that question if you want to claim that Jesus paid for the sin of every human being who ever lived. If He paid for all; then who's the "us ward" He wants to come to repentance?

And speaking of how God's love actually operates; I just had a rather graphic epiphany.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Jesus - "Oh, I so want you to be saved. But you can't be saved unless you receive the seed and it grows into the fruit of the Spirit.

Sinner - "But Lord, I can't receive the seed unless You put it where it needs to go!"

(And they received unto themselves a parable in human anatomy.)

The Righterzpen · Sep 9, 2019

corinth77777 said:
"All who have Learned from the father..."
So one can also say those who have not learned, God does not draw to the son.
Right?

BNR32FAN said:
I disagree because Jesus said

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

To "draw all men to myself". The word "all" means: "pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality"

Strong's Greek: 3956. πᾶς (pas) -- all, every

It's a reference to "every kindred, tribe, tongue and nation"; not "every individual from every kindred, tribe, tongue and nation". We can see this obviously because not all are drawn to Him.

The proof that this is a reference to the nations is by looking at the context of the verse:

John 12:
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Now, how did Jesus die an by who's authority was He executed? Obviously, he was crucified by the Romans. The empire was the pagan, gentile conglomerate of all the peoples of the known world.

Now note what happens at the crucifixion. Who declares Jesus was the Son of God? The Roman soldiers do! (If I be lifted up, I will draw men of all nations unto me.)

BNR32FAN · Sep 9, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Nowhere in any of the passages that it talks about foreknowing does it does it say that foreknowledge is of someone's faith.

The word "foreknowledge" comes from two Greek words "pro" "gnosis"; which we get our word "prognosis" from. (Interesting)

"gnosis" means to be familiar with something or someone. The Gnostics were of a certain sect who believed they were privy to secret knowledge. This word foreknowledge is not used solely speaking of God's foreknowledge.

This word is used 5 places in the Bible:
Acts 26:5 - People who "knew" Paul "before" knew him as a pharisee of a stringent sect.
Romans 8:29 - For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son that he (the Son) might be the first born among many brethren.
Romans 11:2 - God has not cast away His people which He foreknew.
1 Peter 1:20 - Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifest in these last times for you.
2 Peter 3:17 - Ye therefore beloved, seeing you knew these things before, beware lest you also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

Now of those 5 passages; Romans 8:29 and 1st Peter are the ones that talk of the foreknowledge of God as it relates to being predestine to salvation. Romans 11 is talking about who is the real Israel.

Romans 8:
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groaning which cannot be uttered.

27 And He that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

1 Peter 1:20
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abides for ever.

Note the beginning of verse 21. Verse 20 speaks of Jesus being foreordained from the foundation of the world to be manifest in these last times. "Who by HIM do believe in God. Jesus was the vehicle where by men believe. Faith is a byproduct of being atoned for.

“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:1-2‬ ‭NASB‬‬

They were chosen according to God’s foreknowledge. Foreknowledge of what? Their repentance and their enduring faith.

The Righterzpen · Sep 9, 2019

corinth77777 said:
Anyone that does righteous is acceptable to God yes?

Acts 10:
30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,

(Cornelius was a Roman Centurion. Sound familiar? The Centurion at the crucifixion was the one who declared Jesus was the Son of God. Here is the first combining of the Jew and gentile into one body of Christ. Ephesians 2:11-19)

31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.

32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.

33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

corinth77777 said:
Question: how Does Jesus draw man to Him Now...through the Gospel message? The Spirit of God? FOR HE TOLD HIS DISCIPLES..."THESE WORDS I SPEAK TO YOU ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE"..WHEN HE WAS SPEAKING OF THE WAY WE COMMUNE WITH HIM

The first manifestation that the gospel would go into all the world was the very day the Holy Ghost was poured out and all the people heard the apostles speaking in their own tongue. (This is the Scriptural gift of tongues. That a speaker would speak and the hear(s) would miraculously hear their message in their native tongue.)

Again, this mirrors. I shall be lifted up and draw men of all nations unto me.

corinth77777 · Sep 9, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Could be? I'd have to look it up.

It was interesting because..it hits the nail on the head.....when it comes to the prerequisites of those in Christ being the chose. Called into His purposes..we already know one purpose...to transform to the image of His son.
Another words if one is into His purpose...it was his purpose that already existeded
Being called into his purposes gives us purpose. But what it means in the topic of the predestined is likewise the same. GOD had a purpose in Christ that those who got into Him would transform to his image by relying on His son...For some reason I dont believe it means people were chosen b4 time...but His eternal purposes were chosen before time. Therefore anyone that falls into His will is set in the direction to conform to His image matches up with the body of Christ. God knowing His word would never come back void...Therefore they who got into Him were chosen to conform to his image.
So the one behind the system that was set up knew that the power of Love had the ability to bring people in...where they would be chosen to comform....

I tried to explain this to my spouse..but Got list

BNR32FAN said:
“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:1-2‬ ‭NASB‬‬

They were chosen according to God’s foreknowledge. Foreknowledge of what? Their repentance and their enduring faith.

What is the foreknowledge of God? That men are continuously evil and they would need a savior? And God gave them one b4 the foundation of the world?

BNR32FAN · Sep 9, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
To "draw all men to myself". The word "all" means: "pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality"

Strong's Greek: 3956. πᾶς (pas) -- all, every

It's a reference to "every kindred, tribe, tongue and nation"; not "every individual from every kindred, tribe, tongue and nation". We can see this obviously because not all are drawn to Him.

The proof that this is a reference to the nations is by looking at the context of the verse:

John 12:
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Now, how did Jesus die an by who's authority was He executed? Obviously, he was crucified by the Romans. The empire was the pagan, gentile conglomerate of all the peoples of the known world.

Now note what happens at the crucifixion. Who declares Jesus was the Son of God? The Roman soldiers do! (If I be lifted up, I will draw men of all nations unto me.)

So your saying that God does not call to all men? I don’t agree with that because in order for us to be judged according to whether or not we believe (John 3:18) we must be capable of doing so.

renniks · Sep 9, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
And speaking of how God's love actually operates; I just had a rather graphic epiphany.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Jesus - "Oh, I so want you to be saved. But you can't be saved unless you receive the seed and it grows into the fruit of the Spirit.

Sinner - "But Lord, I can't receive the seed unless You put it where it needs to go!"

(And they received unto themselves a parable in human anatomy.)

So, then, you just realized that everyone is a candidate for salvation, because God has revealed himself to all though creation! Hallelujah!

renniks · Sep 9, 2019

corinth77777 said:
Another words if one is into His purpose...it was his purpose that already existeded
Being called into his purposes gives us purpose. But what it means in the topic of the predestined is likewise the same. GOD had a purpose in Christ that those who got into Him would transform to his image by relying on His son...For some reason I dont believe it means people were chosen b4 time...but His eternal purposes were chosen before time. Therefore anyone that falls into His will is set in the direction to conform to His image matches up with the body of Christ. God knowing His word would never come back void...Therefore they who got into Him were chosen to conform to his image.
So the one behind the system that was set up knew that the power of Love had the ability to bring people in...where they would be chosen to comform....

Exactly! Otherwise known as corporate election.

corinth77777 · Sep 9, 2019

renniks said:
So, you are saying this verse only apply to believers? How does that make any sense in your theology? Haven't eternally secure believers already repented? Why would he say they have to come to repentance, when according to your system, all their sins, past, present and future are forgiven? The verse doesn't make any sense if you apply it to people who have already believed, especially if you believe in eternal security.

I believe in eternal security...but not of the believer...but of God......For it is God who is faithful....and lives forever to INTERCEED on our behalf...to those who COME to him.

renniks · Sep 9, 2019

corinth77777 said:
I believe in eternal security...but not of the believer...but of God......For it is God who is faithful....and lives forever to INTERCEED on our behalf...to those who COME to him.

Certainly he does. He will never forsake us, but he will not stop us from forsaking him. I only believe in eternal security for believers. If one follows a false teaching, he is then not longer a believer and hence, not longer secure.

BNR32FAN · Sep 9, 2019

corinth77777 said:
What is the foreknowledge of God? That men are continuously evil and they would need a savior? And God gave them one b4 the foundation of the world?

That doesn’t answer the question why they were chosen by God. All men, even those who are not chosen by God, are continuously evil and in need of a Savior. The foreknowledge is referring to God forseeing whether or not the person would repent and abide in Christ to the end. If your saying that they are chosen according to His foreknowledge of needing a Savior then all men, including those who refuse to repent, would be chosen also. But not everyone is chosen by God. Not everyone’s name was written in the book of life before creation.

BNR32FAN · Sep 9, 2019

renniks said:
Certainly he does. He will never forsake us, but he will not stop us from forsaking him. I only believe in eternal security for believers. If one follows a false teaching, he is then not longer a believer and hence, not longer secure.

I politely disagree here. I believe having a full understanding of God’s word is not necessary to having faith and serving God. I believe that many from all denominations will be saved despite misunderstanding some of God’s teachings.

renniks · Sep 9, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I politely disagree here. I believe having a full understanding of God’s word is not necessary to having faith and serving God. I believe that many from all denominations will be saved despite misunderstanding some of God’s teachings.

I'm not speaking of getting some non essentials wrong. No one gets it all right. A Believer really only has to understand a few things, that Christ died and rose for his salvation. I was speaking of people who fall away into cults that deny Christ, or atheism. But, I probably should have been clearer.

corinth77777 · Sep 9, 2019

renniks said:
Exactly! Otherwise known as corporate election.

Edit..that last part...of chosen..I was wrong I'll fix it...

BNR32FAN said:
That doesn’t answer the question why they were chosen by God. All men, even those who are not chosen by God, are continuously evil and in need of a Savior. The foreknowledge is referring to God forseeing whether or not the person would repent and abide in Christ to the end. If your saying that they are chosen according to His foreknowledge of needing a Savior then all men, including those who refuse to repent, would be chosen also. But not everyone is chosen by God. Not everyone’s name was written in the book of life before creation.

Maybe we are speaki g apples and oranges I dont know

renniks · Sep 9, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Not all the "us ward" have come to repentance. Again, it doesn't day "long suffering to all, not willing that any should perish..." So who's the "us ward"? You'd have to resolve that question if you want to claim that Jesus paid for the sin of every human being who ever lived. If He paid for all; then who's the "us ward" He wants to come to repentance?

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

He is speaking of God being patient with everyone. Notice he says that the scoffers are deliberate in their sin, they "deliberately forget" that God created everything. They are not saved because of their deliberate disobedience, not because God destined them for damnation. The verse says he doesn't want anyone to perish, not just believers.

The Righterzpen · Sep 9, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:1-2‬ ‭NASB‬‬

They were chosen according to God’s foreknowledge. Foreknowledge of what? Their repentance and their enduring faith.

LOL - What you're alleging is not what the passage actually says though.

King James:
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Nothing in this verse says anything about repentance or faith. Repentance and faith is a byproduct of the "sanctification of the Spirit".

Romans 2:4:
Or do you despise the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you are saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves it is a gift of God.

If you want other verses that talk about faith being a gift of God; here are some.

I Samuel 26:23, Romans 12:3, Galatians 2:16 & 20, 3:2 & 5 & 22, Ephesians 3:12, Philippines 3:9, Colossians 2:12, Jude 3, 1 Thessalonians 1:3 (faith is a work) II Thessalonians 1:11

corinth77777 · Sep 9, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
That doesn’t answer the question why they were chosen by God. All men, even those who are not chosen by God, are continuously evil and in need of a Savior. The foreknowledge is referring to God forseeing whether or not the person would repent and abide in Christ to the end. If your saying that they are chosen according to His foreknowledge of needing a Savior then all men, including those who refuse to repent, would be chosen also. But not everyone is chosen by God. Not everyone’s name was written in the book of life before creation.

Let see if I can use some logic here. Everyone in Christ is Chosen to comform to His image.
Why because the system set up b4 the foundation of the world transforms.

we are ALL PREDESTINED

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