"peace and safety" and the red horse

Douggg · Sep 7, 2019

Dale said:
Dougg: "The Antichrist will go into the temple, sit in the place reserved for God, and claim to have achieved God-hood."

What is the place reserved for God?

The Jews believed that God sat on the Mercy Seat above the Ark.

If this Antichrist going to sit on top of the Ark?

I don't know. Perhaps he will place a throne there where the Ark would normally be.

Dale said:
You are presuming that the Temple will be rebuilt. Will they make a new Ark, from directions in the Torah? Or are you one of those who believes the Ark is hidden somewhere and will be brought out when the time is right?

Some sort of Temple must be built. imo, it will be initially sized the minimums to get the animal sacrifices beginning again, as soon as possible. The tent tabernacle was approximately 30ft x 15ft.

I don't know the whereabouts of the Ark or whether it will surface during the time of the Antichrist. I do not think that the Ark of Moses's day will be around during the messianic era.

Jeremiah 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.

Dale · Sep 7, 2019

Douggg said:
Dale, similiar to why to be the President of the United States, a person has to be President of the United States.

Messiah of course means anointed. "the" messiah is a special anointed to become King of Israel descended from King David.

In John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.:

"Anti" means instead of/and or against. In the case of the Anti (the Christ), it is both.

Was Jesus called the King of Israel? Yes, and is tied to he who comes in the name of the Lord.

These are very critical verses to know.

John 12:
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

So, when Jesus in John 5:43, the another is a reference to the Antichrist.

43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

God sent Jesus to be their King of Israel, but they rejected him.

31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
_____________________________________________________________________

So when you learn those verses by heart, you will have the essence of what it means of the person to become the Antichrist. Someone who become the King of Israel messiah, but not approved by God.

But it is not that simple of course about the person because he also has to be king of the fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire.

The Antichrist is when the person is favored by the Jews thinking he is their messiah. For a while.

The little horn and beast is when the person is embraced by the ten kings as their leader, of the fourth kingdom.

Doug,

The problem is, first you say that the Antichrist will be the chief executive of the European Union, maybe the dictator of the European Union.

Then you say that the Antichrist will be acclaimed as King of the Jews and as the Jewish Messiah.

Isn't this scenario contradictory? The Jews in Israel aren't going to see an authoritarian European Union figure as their Messiah. Jews around the world aren't going to see it that way, either.

Dale · Sep 7, 2019

Douggg said:
It appears that in the article the author is saying that the prince of Tyre is not Satan.

Well, I agree that the prince of Tyre is not referring to Satan, but the revealed man of sin in 2Thessalonians2:4.

Lack of knowledge by the author that he doesn't make that connection.

Ezekiel 28:1-10 = revealed man of sin
Ezekiel 28:12-19 = Satan

Two different persons.

Ezekiel 28:2 is easily compared to 2Thessalonians2:4.

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Of course, that is not referring to Satan, but the revealed man of sin. So I don't why Andrew Perriman is make such a point of it.

The Antichrist will go into the temple, sit in the place reserved for God, and claim to have achieved God-hood. The same lie that Satan made in the garden to Eve, that they would become like God.

Dougg,

I don't understand the distinction you are making between the Prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28:2 and the King of Tyre in Ezekiel 28:11. They are obviously the same person. I'm looking at the RSV translation.

Here is another commentary that doesn't agree with your assumptions. This one is by Wayne Jackson at the Christian Courier.

<< In point of fact, Ezekiel’s prophecy regarding the king of Tyre is not alluding to a “fall of Satan,” nor to the alleged rise of a sinister “Anti-Christ” near the conclusion of the present age — though these ideas have become popular among some evangelical writers. >>

<< “Moreover the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say unto him, Thus says the Lord Jehovah?” (28:11-12; emphasis added).
Could a text be clearer? >>

"First, God’s prophet is charged to utter a curse against the king of Tyre ..."

<< Thus, verses 12-19 constitute a “funeral lament” over the fallen “king of Tyre” (v. 12).
It is paramount that the Bible student keep in view this point. This discussion is not regarding Satan. Rather, it is about a human king over a material city.
To ignore this fact is to be guilty of the coarsest form of textual manipulation. >>

<< There is no hint in this narrative of a “fall of Satan,” or a “gap” between Genesis 1:1 and verse 2. And there is no projected rise of a sinister “Anti-Christ” who ushers in the concluding epoch of human history. >>

A Study of the King of Tyre Prophecy in Ezekiel 28
By Wayne Jackson

Link
A Study of the King of Tyre Prophecy in Ezekiel 28

Dale · Sep 7, 2019

Douggg said:
It appears that in the article the author is saying that the prince of Tyre is not Satan.

Well, I agree that the prince of Tyre is not referring to Satan, but the revealed man of sin in 2Thessalonians2:4.

Lack of knowledge by the author that he doesn't make that connection.

Ezekiel 28:1-10 = revealed man of sin
Ezekiel 28:12-19 = Satan

Two different persons.

Ezekiel 28:2 is easily compared to 2Thessalonians2:4.

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Of course, that is not referring to Satan, but the revealed man of sin. So I don't why Andrew Perriman is make such a point of it.

The Antichrist will go into the temple, sit in the place reserved for God, and claim to have achieved God-hood. The same lie that Satan made in the garden to Eve, that they would become like God.

Doug, in your post you cite 2 Thessalonians 2 as saying that the Man of Sin will take a seat in the Temple to claim God's glory. Not everyone agrees that Paul was talking about the Jewish Temple when he said this. This is another commentary by Wayne Jackson.

<< The Man of Sin opposes God and exalts himself against all that is genuinely sacred (v. 4). He feigns religiosity, but his true character reveals that he is diabolic. His activity actually is according to the working of Satan (v. 9).

In some sense, the Man of Sin will sit in the temple of God (v. 4). The “temple” is not a reference to the Jewish house of worship. The Greek word is naos, used by Paul eight times. Never does he employ this term of the Jewish temple. >>

Who Is Paul’s “Man of Sin”?
By Wayne Jackson

Link
Who Is Paul's "Man of Sin"?

Douggg · Sep 8, 2019

Dale said:
The problem is, first you say that the Antichrist will be the chief executive of the European Union, maybe the dictator of the European Union.

No, I said "the little horn", the person in his initial biblical role will be the democratically elected chief executive of the EU. I have also showed it on my chart.

At the last stage of his time, he will be "the beast" his final biblical role, the dictator of the EU.

Nearly 100% everyone else use the term Antichrist for the person as a universal label for the person out of habit no matter what stage of his time, because everyone is programmed that way by decades upon decades of it being said the same thing over and over, using the term Antichrist universally about the person.

Dale said:
Then you say that the Antichrist will be acclaimed as King of the Jews and as the Jewish Messiah.

Dale, when "the person" becomes the Antichrist, it is because he has been anointed the King of Israel.

Dale said:
Isn't this scenario contradictory? The Jews in Israel aren't going to see an authoritarian European Union figure as their Messiah. Jews around the world aren't going to see it that way, either.

Dale, to make that statement, what are you basing your knowledge on what the Jews believe on?

I have made over 10,000 posts in discussion and arguments with Jews themselves at their Judaism countermissionary sites, like Messiah Truth site, since 2004.

The Jews (Judaism) go by the teachings of the Rambam, and commentary by Rashi. You can go to Judaism 101.org site, and read up on the mashiach.

Would you agree with me that being the leader of the EU is a political position?

Here's what Judaism 101.org says...

"The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5)."
___________________________________________________________________

Do you know what the Rambam taught about the messiah? Ramabam taught that the messiah will fight the battles of God in defending Israel.

The little horn person will take actions that it will appear that is what he is doing, when Gog/Magog attacks. Yes, I have a bible basis for saying that, from Daniel 8.

From Judaism 101

"He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel."

Look at what else they say at Judaism 101

"Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)."

Douggg · Sep 8, 2019

Dale said:
I don't understand the distinction you are making between the Prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28:2 and the King of Tyre in Ezekiel 28:11. They are obviously the same person. I'm looking at the RSV translation.

Dale, I am using the KJV.

Two different prophecy to two different persons. A prince is a lesser person than a king, btw. Wouldn't you agree with that?

In the case of the specific prince and the specific king in Ezekiel 28, they have a relationship, that the prince gets his power from the king. That is the revealed man of sin gets his power from Satan.

Douggg · Sep 8, 2019

Dale said:
Here is another commentary that doesn't agree with your assumptions. This one is by Wayne Jackson at the Christian Courier.

Dale, you can find countless commentary by persons who disagree with me.

You can also find countless commentary by persons who don't believe that Jesus is the messiah. Does that make them correct? And would it be fair in a discussion, for you have to defend your position on Jesus, in a forum discussion here - for every lengthy commentary someone can bring up of others, citing a website, or article, or video, who believe otherwise?

If anyone disagrees with me on eschatology issues, they themselves are welcomed to discuss with me here in this forum.

Dale · Sep 8, 2019

Douggg said:
No, I said "the little horn", the person in his initial biblical role will be the democratically elected chief executive of the EU. I have also showed it on my chart.

At the last stage of his time, he will be "the beast" his final biblical role, the dictator of the EU.

Nearly 100% everyone else use the term Antichrist for the person as a universal label for the person out of habit no matter what stage of his time, because everyone is programmed that way by decades upon decades of it being said the same thing over and over, using the term Antichrist universally about the person.

Dale, when "the person" becomes the Antichrist, it is because he has been anointed the King of Israel.

Dale, to make that statement, what are you basing your knowledge on what the Jews believe on?

I have made over 10,000 posts in discussion and arguments with Jews themselves at their Judaism countermissionary sites, like Messiah Truth site, since 2004.

The Jews (Judaism) go by the teachings of the Rambam, and commentary by Rashi. You can go to Judaism 101.org site, and read up on the mashiach.

Would you agree with me that being the leader of the EU is a political position?

Here's what Judaism 101.org says...

"The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5)."
___________________________________________________________________

Do you know what the Rambam taught about the messiah? Ramabam taught that the messiah will fight the battles of God in defending Israel.

The little horn person will take actions that it will appear that is what he is doing, when Gog/Magog attacks. Yes, I have a bible basis for saying that, from Daniel 8.

From Judaism 101

"He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel."

Look at what else they say at Judaism 101

"Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)."

Quote

End Quote

Most Jews in Israel today are very secular in their outlook.
Those that are not follow their leaders. It is difficult to imagine a scenario where Jewish religious leaders, rabbis, willingly give up their authority to a foreigner. They like being in charge of their communities and they are not looking to bring someone in to take over.

Douggg · Sep 8, 2019

Dale said:
Quote
View attachment 262759
End Quote

Most Jews in Israel today are very secular in their outlook.
Those that are not follow their leaders. It is difficult to imagine a scenario where Jewish religious leaders, rabbis, willingly give up their authority to a foreigner. They like being in charge of their communities and they are not looking to bring someone in to take over.

The someone is who they think is the messiah. It is not just anyone.

41% of Israel Jews are secular. 38% of Israel Jews are religious to a degree. Orthodox and ultra orthodox are the remainder. So that is a 60% religious to 40% secular.

Guess what else? The person is going to be so convincing that he is the messiah that many in Christianity will fall away from Jesus and believe that person is the messiah instead.

2Thessalonian 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

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"peace and safety" and the red horse

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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Dale

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Dale

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Dale

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Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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Dale

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Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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