Do you believe all young children, 5yo or younger (not infants) will be saved?

Do you believe all young children, 5yo or younger (not infants) will be saved?

  • Yes, it's a matter of age of accountability

    Votes: 15 53.6%
  • Only those that have been baptized

    Votes: 4 14.3%
  • Only those that have faith in Christ

    Votes: 2 7.1%
  • Only those that are part of a Christian family

    Votes: 1 3.6%
  • Only those that are of the elect.

    Votes: 6 21.4%

  • Total voters
    28

zoidar

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At the moment of salvation, you receive your new body....your mind is transformed and you are a new creature......who never dies.

Jesus did state the following, right?

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

It is ok if you dont.

I believe our saved bodies will be glorified like Jesus' body. We still have a sinful nature now right, that sinful nature will be away with at the day of judgement, and we will be glorified. Jesus walked through locked doors with his glorified body. I believe our bodies will be like his resurrected body, physical yet different.
 
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RaymondG

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I believe our saved bodies will be glorified like Jesus' body. We still have a sinful nature now right, that sinful nature will be away with at the day of judgement, and we will be glorified. Jesus walked through locked doors with his glorified body. I believe our bodies will be like his resurrected body, physical yet different.
I have no concern with the type of body you desire to have. The issue is when you expect to receive it. There is no repentance in the grave.

I say go receive your body now, and come back here and tell us what it looks like....

After this you will understand the saying:
"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"
 
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zoidar

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At the moment of salvation, you receive your new body....your mind is transformed and you are a new creature......who never dies.

Jesus did state the following, right?

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

It is ok if you dont.

Do you believe an infant will be resurrected at judgement or before judgement born again here on Earth in a new family? I understood you to believe the latter which I mean isn't biblical.
 
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zoidar

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I have no concern with the type of body you desire to have. The issue is when you expect to receive it. There is no repentance in the grave.

I say go receive your body now, and come back here and tell us what it looks like....

After this you will understand the saying:
"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

I got born again summer of 2010, but I didn't receive a glorified body. I still fall in sin at times. There will be no sin in heaven.
 
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RaymondG

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Do you believe an infant will be resurrected at judgement or before judgement born again here on Earth in a new family? I understood you to believe the latter which I mean isn't biblical.
There will be no infants needing breast feeding angels in heaven, nor will there be any 80 year olds in wheelchairs, in heaven. neither will there be male or female there.

So going there in your current body, with an added glow?????....doesnt seem too biblical either.
 
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zoidar

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There will be no infants needing breast feeding angels in heaven, nor will there be any 80 year olds in wheelchairs, in heaven. neither will there be male or female there.

So going there in your current body, with an added glow?????....doesnt seem too biblical either.

Actually I believe we still be male and female. I think I will be like I am now yet free from sin, that I will look basically the same, yet glorified, holy, pure. The Bible doesn't say if there will be infants in heaven. There will be no sin and therefor no illness, so no wheelchairs.

How was Jesus' body after resurrection?
 
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renniks

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The Lutheran position would be that since faith is a gift (Ephesians 2:8) which is given through the Word (Romans 10:17), then Word and Sacrament actually and efficaciously give faith. The baptized infant has a "personal" faith, because like all of us faith is not an innate property of fallen man
Well there's the issue. I don't believe faith is a gift. Grace, yes, faith, no. It's just not borne out by the many scriptures that tell us to have faith, to grow in faith, ECT. I'm Protestant, but not Calvinist or Lutheran. And being from s Wesleyan background, we have a different view of faith. Even though Wesley did baptize infants, it really wasn't considered a salvation issue, and the weslyans moved away from it, although Methodist still do infant baptism.
 
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renniks

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Catholics hold to that children are becoming members of the Church through baptism, and as long as they are too young to believe themselves, the faith of the Church is counted for them.
Which, IMO, leads to people thinking because they were sprinkled as an infant they will go straight to heaven no matter what...
 
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bling

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I do not believe anyone child or adult who never reaches adult maturity to intentionally sin is saved, because they are in a "safe condition" not needing salvation.
From what I understand about "Love" and "God's Love" these individuals would enter heaven without fulfilling their earthly objective.
 
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zoidar

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Which, IMO, leads to people thinking because they were sprinkled as an infant they will go straight to heaven no matter what...

I think that idea is mostly common by those that are "cultural Christians" . Those who take their faith seriously, I think believe in the need of repentance and faith for salvation.
 
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RaymondG

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Actually I believe we still be male and female. I think I will be like I am now yet free from sin, that I will look basically the same, yet glorified, holy, pure. The Bible doesn't say if there will be infants in heaven. There will be no sin and therefor no illness, so no wheelchairs.

How was Jesus' body after resurrection?
May you receive the desires of your heart.....
 
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ViaCrucis

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Well there's the issue. I don't believe faith is a gift. Grace, yes, faith, no. It's just not borne out by the many scriptures that tell us to have faith, to grow in faith, ECT. I'm Protestant, but not Calvinist or Lutheran. And being from s Wesleyan background, we have a different view of faith. Even though Wesley did baptize infants, it really wasn't considered a salvation issue, and the weslyans moved away from it, although Methodist still do infant baptism.

It's worth noting that the reading that faith is, or constitutes part of, the "and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" has been the received reading and understanding of the text both in antiquity and down through the ages. That includes John Wesley.

Wesley's commentary of Ephesians 2:8-9 is as follows,

"Verse 8
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

By grace ye are saved through faith — Grace, without any respect to human worthiness, confers the glorious gift. Faith, with an empty hand, and without any pretence to personal desert, receives the heavenly blessing.

And this is not of yourselves — This refers to the whole preceding clause, That ye are saved through faith, is the gift of God.

Verse 9
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Not by works — Neither this faith nor this salvation is owing to any works you ever did, will, or can do.
" (source)

On this point Wesley has not departed from the understanding of the historic Church.

Likewise, Wesley in his Earnest Appeal to Men of Reason and Religion writes,

"We answer, (on the Scripture hypothesis,) “It is the gift of God.” No man is able to work it in himself. It is a work of omnipotence. It requires no less power thus to quicken a dead soul, than to raise a body that lies in the grave. It is a new creation and none can create a soul anew, but He who at first created the heavens and the earth. 10. May not your own experience teach you this? Can you give yourself this faith? Is it now in your power to see, or hear, or taste, or feel God?" (source)

This rejection of God's grace and of faith as God's good gift is not a product of Wesley. And Wesley does not seem to be to blame for it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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renniks

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It's worth noting that the reading that faith is, or constitutes part of, the "and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" has been the received reading and understanding of the text both in antiquity and down through the ages. That includes John Wesley.

Wesley's commentary of Ephesians 2:8-9 is as follows,

"Verse 8
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

By grace ye are saved through faith — Grace, without any respect to human worthiness, confers the glorious gift. Faith, with an empty hand, and without any pretence to personal desert, receives the heavenly blessing.

And this is not of yourselves — This refers to the whole preceding clause, That ye are saved through faith, is the gift of God.

Verse 9
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Not by works — Neither this faith nor this salvation is owing to any works you ever did, will, or can do.
" (source)

On this point Wesley has not departed from the understanding of the historic Church.

Likewise, Wesley in his Earnest Appeal to Men of Reason and Religion writes,

"We answer, (on the Scripture hypothesis,) “It is the gift of God.” No man is able to work it in himself. It is a work of omnipotence. It requires no less power thus to quicken a dead soul, than to raise a body that lies in the grave. It is a new creation and none can create a soul anew, but He who at first created the heavens and the earth. 10. May not your own experience teach you this? Can you give yourself this faith? Is it now in your power to see, or hear, or taste, or feel God?" (source)

This rejection of God's grace and of faith as God's good gift is not a product of Wesley. And Wesley does not seem to be to blame for it.

-CryptoLutheran

Wesley saw faith as a divine evidence and conviction...that Christ loved me and gave Himself for me”(SW-47). Faith is knowing that one is a child of God (SW-47). The effect of faith is justification, for faith alone is sufficient for justification although “repentance and fruits meet for repentance” are necessary also, if “time and opportunity” permit (SW-48). The fruits of repentance, or works, do not cause justification (nor sanctification), for alone they are worthless, but it is incumbent on all who are justified to be zealous of good works” (SW-49). Justification is the “forgiveness of all our sins”(SW-44) and the “immediate effects of justification are the peace of God...and a “rejoicing in hope of the glory of God” with joy unspeakable and full of glory”(SW-45).

Regardless of how he phrased it, he did not see faith as irresistibly applied:
Wesley believes grace to be relational, in that it enables and invites us to enter into a relationship with God. “God worketh in you,” says Wesley, “therefore you must work.” (“On Working out Our Own Salvation,” III.7, in Works, vol. 3; 208.) This we do through means of grace, both works of piety (directed toward God) and works of mercy (directed toward our neighbor). Wesley depicts the relationship in this way. As the “Spirit or breath of God… is continually received by faith, so it is continually rendered back by love, by prayer, and praise, and thanksgiving—love and praise and prayer being the breath of every soul which is truly born of God. And by this new kind of spiritual respiration, spiritual life is not only sustained but increased day by day…” (“The Great Privilege of Those That Are Born of God,” I.8, in Works, vol. 1 [1984] 434).
 
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ViaCrucis

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Wesley saw faith as a divine evidence and conviction...that Christ loved me and gave Himself for me”(SW-47). Faith is knowing that one is a child of God (SW-47). The effect of faith is justification, for faith alone is sufficient for justification although “repentance and fruits meet for repentance” are necessary also, if “time and opportunity” permit (SW-48). The fruits of repentance, or works, do not cause justification (nor sanctification), for alone they are worthless, but it is incumbent on all who are justified to be zealous of good works” (SW-49). Justification is the “forgiveness of all our sins”(SW-44) and the “immediate effects of justification are the peace of God...and a “rejoicing in hope of the glory of God” with joy unspeakable and full of glory”(SW-45).

Regardless of how he phrased it, he did not see faith as irresistibly applied:
Wesley believes grace to be relational, in that it enables and invites us to enter into a relationship with God. “God worketh in you,” says Wesley, “therefore you must work.” (“On Working out Our Own Salvation,” III.7, in Works, vol. 3; 208.) This we do through means of grace, both works of piety (directed toward God) and works of mercy (directed toward our neighbor). Wesley depicts the relationship in this way. As the “Spirit or breath of God… is continually received by faith, so it is continually rendered back by love, by prayer, and praise, and thanksgiving—love and praise and prayer being the breath of every soul which is truly born of God. And by this new kind of spiritual respiration, spiritual life is not only sustained but increased day by day…” (“The Great Privilege of Those That Are Born of God,” I.8, in Works, vol. 1 [1984] 434).

I suppose I'm not seeing where this would suggest Wesley doesn't understand faith as gift.

But, further, my point is this: that faith is a gift isn't simply a "Lutheran" or "Calvinist" idea; it's a biblical idea. It's simply Ephesians 2:8. That we don't get to boast about saving ourselves, because it is God's work, it is God's gift. Even the faith through which we are saved is from God, not ourselves.

"For he himself also says, 'By grace you are saved through faith; and this not of yourselves; but it is the gift of God,' — that is to say, 'And in saying "through faith," even faith itself is not of yourselves, but is God's gift.' 'Not of works,' he says, 'lest any man should be lifted up.'" - St. Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints, Book I, Chapter 12

"'For by grace,' says he 'have you been saved.'

In order then that the greatness of the benefits bestowed may not raise you too high, observe how he brings you down: 'by grace you have been saved,' says he,

'Through faith;'

Then, that, on the other hand, our free-will be not impaired, he adds also our part in the work, and yet again cancels it, and adds,

'And that not of ourselves.'

Neither is faith, he means, 'of ourselves.' Because had He not come, had He not called us, how had we been able to believe? For 'how,' says he, 'shall they believe, unless they hear?' So that the work of faith itself is not our own.

'It is the gift,' said he, 'of God,' it is 'not of works.'

Was faith then, you will say, enough to save us? No; but God, says he, has required this, lest He should save us, barren and without work at all. His expression is, that faith saves, but it is because God so wills, that faith saves. Since, how, tell me, does faith save, without works? This itself is the gift of God.
" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 4 on Ephesians

-CryptoLutheran
 
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~Zao~

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These are the verses for faith as a gift. It’s from a church course on discovering personal gifts, which faith is my main gift, secondly teaching and thirdly discernment. It’s a great book for selecting people for the different services to be done. ~ A Network Ministry Resource, participants guide, revised.

1 Corinthians 12:9
to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,

1 Corinthians 13:2
And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Romans 4:18-21
Hoping against hope, he believed that he would become “the father of many nations,” according to what was said, “So numerous shall your descendants be.” 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was already[a] as good as dead (for he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 being fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
 
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RDKirk

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In Deuteronomy He talks about Israel NOT going to see the land.. but the children that don't know yet good or evil shall. Is there a accountability age? I have not found it written. The Father never makes mistakes.. He is just.. and He sees what we can not. I believe is far easier to be saved than lost.. praise GOD GLORY TO JESUS!

There are several verses--that being one of them--that God's mercy takes into account how much a person knows about Him from creation and how that person responded to that knowledge...did he "walk in the light" that he had?

It's not a matter of children being innocent, it's a matter of children being ignorant.

God will know for each person individually.
 
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RDKirk

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Hey hedrick. I think people who have had an encounter/ experience of God will stay the course. Part of the power in the gospel is that it's counter-cultural, counter-traditional, it does not fit well with any political philosophy. The followers of Christ have a distinction between them and the world. When the church tries to blur this distinction or become too much like society it dies. God Bless :)

It's not supposed to fit well with any political philosophy--nor are Christians.

Jesus is the uncut stone rejected by the (earthly) builders because he does not fit into their structure.

But according to 1 Peter, we are all supposed to be uncut stones just like Christ, and He is the cornerstone that becomes with us a spiritual house of uncut stones.

This tells me that when people are able to fit "Jesus" into their earthly politics, their "Jesus" is not the real Jesus.

Jesus is not their way of life, Jesus is just their gang sign.
 
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renniks

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I suppose I'm not seeing where this would suggest Wesley doesn't understand faith as gift.

But, further, my point is this: that faith is a gift isn't simply a "Lutheran" or "Calvinist" idea; it's a biblical idea. It's simply Ephesians 2:8. That we don't get to boast about saving ourselves, because it is God's work, it is God's gift. Even the faith through which we are saved is from God, not ourselves.

"For he himself also says, 'By grace you are saved through faith; and this not of yourselves; but it is the gift of God,' — that is to say, 'And in saying "through faith," even faith itself is not of yourselves, but is God's gift.' 'Not of works,' he says, 'lest any man should be lifted up.'" - St. Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints, Book I, Chapter 12

"'For by grace,' says he 'have you been saved.'

In order then that the greatness of the benefits bestowed may not raise you too high, observe how he brings you down: 'by grace you have been saved,' says he,

'Through faith;'

Then, that, on the other hand, our free-will be not impaired, he adds also our part in the work, and yet again cancels it, and adds,

'And that not of ourselves.'

Neither is faith, he means, 'of ourselves.' Because had He not come, had He not called us, how had we been able to believe? For 'how,' says he, 'shall they believe, unless they hear?' So that the work of faith itself is not our own.

'It is the gift,' said he, 'of God,' it is 'not of works.'

Was faith then, you will say, enough to save us? No; but God, says he, has required this, lest He should save us, barren and without work at all. His expression is, that faith saves, but it is because God so wills, that faith saves. Since, how, tell me, does faith save, without works? This itself is the gift of God.
" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 4 on Ephesians

-CryptoLutheran
Grammatically speaking, there is no agreement between “faith” and “gift.” Faith (pisteos) in the Greek Testament is a feminine form, while “gift” (doron) is neuter gender. The “gift” is not “faith.”

Some have objected to this argument, contending that the Greek noun for “salvation” is also feminine, thus it cannot be the antecedent of “gift.” While it is true that the Greek noun, “salvation,” is a feminine form, the verbal construction found here used in connection with a neuter pronoun (“this”) requires that the antecedent must also be neuter, thus, “salvation” [understood], not “faith” (see: Lockhart, 86; Cottrell, 200).

The New Testament clearly teaches that belief is a sacredly imposed obligation to which man is required to exercise as a matter of his own volitional ability.

  • At the commencement of his ministry, Jesus himself commanded, “repent, and believe the gospel” (Mk. 1:15).
  • The Lord charged those of his audiences to “believe the works” that he was performing, that they might comprehend his relationship to the Father (Jn. 10:38; cf. 14:11).
  • He admonished his auditors to “believe on the light,” i.e., the illuminating instruction that emanated from him, that they themselves might be enlightened (Jn. 12:36).
    • And to the jailor in the city of Philippi, the inspired Paul commanded, “believe on the Lord Jesus” (Acts 16:31).
    In each of the passages just cited, the Greek verb pisteuo (“believe”) is in the imperative mood — the mood of command. It thus is quite inaccurate to allege that “believing” is an act of which one is personally incapable.
 
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