Do you believe all young children, 5yo or younger (not infants) will be saved?

Do you believe all young children, 5yo or younger (not infants) will be saved?

  • Yes, it's a matter of age of accountability

    Votes: 15 53.6%
  • Only those that have been baptized

    Votes: 4 14.3%
  • Only those that have faith in Christ

    Votes: 2 7.1%
  • Only those that are part of a Christian family

    Votes: 1 3.6%
  • Only those that are of the elect.

    Votes: 6 21.4%

  • Total voters
    28

lismore

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John 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:15 And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.

 
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zoidar

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I would tell them that Im sorry for their lose, and will be there for them in any way they desire, if desired. I do not feel that this would be the ideal time to talk about spiritual matters, nor would I feel that saying " Oh your child is in heaven now" would cheer them up.

Some parents worry their whole life of that their stillborn child may be in hell. I think there is a place to tell them not to worry, that God is love, the most merciful One. Of course I can't tell them I know only what I believe, because no one of us KNOWS the final outcome of anyone else.

"This infant will await a new house of flesh to live out it's experiences....possibly within the same family line...."

This sounds like reincarnation. Is that what you mean?

"Death has been conquered by the one we claim to serve."


Amen to that!
 
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renniks

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It's all a matter for speculation. Scripture doesn't clearly indicate one way or the other, although it is easy to argue that baptized 5 year-olds would be saved.
What good is getting wet if you are too young to comprehend salvation?
 
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Albion

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What good is getting wet if you are too young to comprehend salvation?
No one is talking about "getting wet." There is a discussion involving Baptism underway, however.

But that aside, who among us DOES comprehend salvation? We know the general idea but how it all works and what salvation produces is something that will be revealed to the soul at a later time.
 
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renniks

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No one is talking about "getting wet." There is a discussion involving Baptism underway, however.

But that aside, who among us DOES comprehend salvation? We know the general idea but how it all works and what salvation produces is something that will be revealed to the soul at a later time.
I just see no evidence from scripture that babies should be baptized, and certainly not that it converts their souls.
 
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ViaCrucis

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What good is getting wet if you are too young to comprehend salvation?

This presumes that salvation requires that we be able to comprehend it and that Baptism is merely "getting wet". Neither presumption is biblical nor has ever been how Christians view these subjects.

Rather, salvation is a matter of God's grace and what Christ has accomplished by Himself.
And, likewise, Baptism is means through which God joins us to Christ and what Christ has done.

Hence the Scriptures say that it is by grace that we are saved, and that through Baptism we have been united to Christ, joined to His death and resurrection.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I just see no evidence from scripture that babies should be baptized, and certainly not that it converts their souls.

Is there a reason why Christians should keep their children away from Jesus?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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renniks

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Is there a reason why Christians should keep their children away from Jesus?

-CryptoLutheran
No, they should explain Jesus to thier children from the start. The problem comes in believing that a sprinkling with water does anything for their souls, it's just false doctrine.
 
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ViaCrucis

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No, they should explain Jesus to thier children from the start.

Why? If they aren't capable of understanding it, then talking to them about Jesus doesn't really do anything. It's just an ear full of words.

The problem comes in believing that a sprinkling with water does anything for their souls, it's just false doctrine.

It's what Scripture rather plainly says actually. That we are born again of water and the Spirit, that we are baptized for the forgiveness of sins, that we are clothed with Christ, united to Christ's death and resurrection, that we've been buried with Christ, etc. John 3:5, Acts of the Apostles 2:38, Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:11-12, Titus 3:5.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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RaymondG

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No one is talking about "getting wet." There is a discussion involving Baptism underway, however.

No this is not about getting wet.....it is, however about the beliefs of the parents being transfered to a child......for we can both agree, i believe, that the child would know nothing about what is transpiring....and probably wont remember after.

So do you believe that the belief of a parent, affects the child up until they are able to believe for themselves?

And if this is true for baptism....what about the children of parent of opposing religions? are they equally as doomed for their parents belief as the christian baptized child is saved because of their parents belief?

But that aside, who among us DOES comprehend salvation? We know the general idea but how it all works and what salvation produces is something that will be revealed to the soul at a later time.

One must comprehend Salvation to gain entrance to heaven....eternal life. This is something we receive now....today.....if you believe it possible. For God is not the God of the dead...and "He that liveth and believeth in ME shall never die"

Woe to those that put off for tomorrow, that which is for today...the day of salvation. For tomorrow will never come.......someone told me yesterday that today would be tomorrow......now, today, they are pushing it out, yet another day.......
 
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Albion

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I just see no evidence from scripture that babies should be baptized, and certainly not that it converts their souls.
Well, the issue has come up here many times, and the various places in the New Testament which speak of "whole households" being baptized (with no mention of those people each having made a confession of faith) is that "evidence from scripture" that you were uncertain about. :)
 
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zoidar

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Why? If they aren't capable of understanding it, then talking to them about Jesus doesn't really do anything. It's just an ear full of words.

It's what Scripture rather plainly says actually. That we are born again of water and the Spirit, that we are baptized for the forgiveness of sins, that we are clothed with Christ, united to Christ's death and resurrection, that we've been buried with Christ, etc. John 3:5, Acts of the Apostles 2:38, Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:11-12, Titus 3:5.

-CryptoLutheran

No, they should explain Jesus to thier children from the start. The problem comes in believing that a sprinkling with water does anything for their souls, it's just false doctrine.

Did the circumcision do anything for the child?

Catholics hold to that children are becoming members of the Church through baptism, and as long as they are too young to believe themselves, the faith of the Church is counted for them.
 
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RaymondG

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Some parents worry their whole life of that their stillborn child may be in hell.

Atheist never worry about this. Only the religious would have this type of worry... One who claims to know the God who is Love. This is an statement worth pondering as well.

I think there is a place to tell them not to worry, that God is love, the most merciful One. Of course I can't tell them I know only what I believe, because no one of us KNOWS the final outcome of anyone else.
After a parent has lost their child may not be the best time to talk about how loving God is.....if this was not your custom beforehand.

And if you feel that you dont know the final outcome, it is even more unwise to tell one, in grief, what you think and believe about the outcome......for they may ask you how you know.

If one cannot show empathy for those in grief it may be better to stay away and speak no words.

This sounds like reincarnation. Is that what you mean?
The word reincarnation is not in the bible.......I prefer to use terms and ideas from scripture. However, I believe my words were plain, and needs no linkages to outside, generally used terms or phrases.
 
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zoidar

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Atheist never worry about this. Only the religious would have this type of worry... One who claims to know the God who is Love. This is an statement worth pondering as well.


After a parent has lost their child may not be the best time to talk about how loving God is.....if this was not your custom beforehand.

And if you feel that you dont know the final outcome, it is even more unwise to tell one, in grief, what you think and believe about the outcome......for they may ask you how you know.

If one cannot show empathy for those in grief it may be better to stay away and speak no words.


The word reincarnation is not in the bible.......I prefer to use terms and ideas from scripture. However, I believe my words were plain, and needs no linkages to outside, generally used terms or phrases.

Of course it's a bad idea trying to comfort parents who just lost their baby by "their baby is in heaven".

I don't think your idea of an infant dying will be born again in a new body is biblical. At least I have found nothing that points to this.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Catholics hold to that children are becoming members of the Church through baptism, and as long as they are too young to believe themselves, the faith of the Church is counted for them.

The Lutheran position would be that since faith is a gift (Ephesians 2:8) which is given through the Word (Romans 10:17), then Word and Sacrament actually and efficaciously give faith. The baptized infant has a "personal" faith, because like all of us faith is not an innate property of fallen man, but the supernatural gift of God by His grace. So there is no qualitative difference between the faith of the newborn infant and the faith of an elderly man--faith is faith, and through faith we are freely justified, "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Gentile. Through it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'" (Romans 1:16-17). Thus the baptized infant is a believer in Jesus Christ, because one is not a believer through the fallen natural powers of sinful man, but rather one is a believer by the power and work of God.

The parents and the Church together come together not to substitute our faith for the child's; but rather to stand in confirmation and confession of our common faith; and to commit ourselves altogether as God's people to raising and lifting the child up to God. The child therefore has been born again by God's grace, received the Holy Spirit, become a member of the household of faith, is a child of God, and a member of Christ's Holy Body, the Church. No different than anyone else.

This is also why Lutherans tend to be critical of taking children away from the Service, because as full members of Christ's Body they are to receive the same Word and gifts as all the rest of God's Faithful.

This is also why many Lutherans have been reevaluating whether or not it should be acceptable to withhold the Eucharist from infants and small children--and in some cases have adopted the ancient and still common practice in the East to commune infants and children. Withholding the Eucharist from small children and infants became common in the West because of the Western practice of Confirmation--in antiquity (and in the East) Confirmation/Chrismation immediately proceeded Baptism. However at some point in late antiquity and early middle ages Western practice began to separate Baptism and Confirmation, and as such children would not receive Confirmation until they were much older.

Lutherans continued to have Confirmation, though did not regard it as a Sacrament like Catholicism did. The influence of this long-standing Western practice continued among Lutherans. However, Eastern Christians never separated Confirmation (what they call Chrismation) from Baptism, and as such the time between Baptism and First Communion was immediate.

As such there has arisen debate among Lutherans over whether to commune infants or to wait. Personally, I would be on the side of communing infants using intinction, probably in the standard Orthodox manner of using a spoon.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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zoidar

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The Lutheran position would be that since faith is a gift (Ephesians 2:8) which is given through the Word (Romans 10:17), then Word and Sacrament actually and efficaciously give faith. The baptized infant has a "personal" faith, because like all of us faith is not an innate property of fallen man, but the supernatural gift of God by His grace. So there is no qualitative difference between the faith of the newborn infant and the faith of an elderly man--faith is faith, and through faith we are freely justified, "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Gentile. Through it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'" (Romans 1:16-17). Thus the baptized infant is a believer in Jesus Christ, because one is not a believer through the fallen natural powers of sinful man, but rather one is a believer by the power and work of God.

The parents and the Church together come together not to substitute our faith for the child's; but rather to stand in confirmation and confession of our common faith; and to commit ourselves altogether as God's people to raising and lifting the child up to God. The child therefore has been born again by God's grace, received the Holy Spirit, become a member of the household of faith, is a child of God, and a member of Christ's Holy Body, the Church. No different than anyone else.

This is also why Lutherans tend to be critical of taking children away from the Service, because as full members of Christ's Body they are to receive the same Word and gifts as all the rest of God's Faithful.

This is also why many Lutherans have been reevaluating whether or not it should be acceptable to withhold the Eucharist from infants and small children--and in some cases have adopted the ancient and still common practice in the East to commune infants and children. Withholding the Eucharist from small children and infants became common in the West because of the Western practice of Confirmation--in antiquity (and in the East) Confirmation/Chrismation immediately proceeded Baptism. However at some point in late antiquity and early middle ages Western practice began to separate Baptism and Confirmation, and as such children would not receive Confirmation until they were much older.

Lutherans continued to have Confirmation, though did not regard it as a Sacrament like Catholicism did. The influence of this long-standing Western practice continued among Lutherans. However, Eastern Christians never separated Confirmation (what they call Chrismation) from Baptism, and as such the time between Baptism and First Communion was immediate.

As such there has arisen debate among Lutherans over whether to commune infants or to wait. Personally, I would be on the side of communing infants using intinction, probably in the standard Orthodox manner of using a spoon.

-CryptoLutheran

You are indeed very Lutheran :)
 
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RaymondG

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I don't think your idea of an infant dying will be born again in a new body is biblical. At least I have found nothing that points to this.
My words are not just concerning infants......as opposes to what this thread implies.....I believe there is only one way to God with no exceptions.

And Dying and being born again in a new body is foundational to Christianity, is it not? Isnt this not what most look forward to?
 
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zoidar

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My words are not just concerning infants......as opposes to what this thread implies.....I believe there is only one way to God with no exceptions.

And Dying and being born again in a new body is foundational to Christianity, is it not? Isnt this not what most look forward to?

Not a new body, your old body resurrected and glorified at the day of judgement. Jesus old body got resurrected and glorified right?
 
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LoveofTruth

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Do you believe all 5 year olds or younger (not infants) will be saved? How do you come to your conclusion?
Yes, I believe so according to scripture. This is through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ who died for them as well. But not all will be saved when they have sin revive and they die spiritually and when they hate the light. Then they must repent and believe the gospel and tryst in God’s righteousness(which the gospel declares through Jesus Christ) . Or they will go to that lake if fire one day.
 
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RaymondG

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Not a new body, your old body resurrected and glorified at the day of judgement. Jesus old body got resurrected and glorified right?
At the moment of salvation, you receive your new body....your mind is transformed and you are a new creature......who never dies.

Jesus did state the following, right?

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

It is ok if you dont.
 
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