we are ALL PREDESTINED

The Righterzpen · Aug 30, 2019

roman2819 said:
The Bible is NOT referring to individual predestination. Instead, Paul and the apostles were saying that God predestined to offer redemption to the Gentiles. In other words, it is corporate predestination, not individual.

Paul spoke about predestination in Romans 9 and Ephesians 1,2 3. Peter also said you are a chosen people. We should read in context first. Ephesians 1,2 3 explain it clearly in 70 verses: God predestined or pre-plan to offer redemption to the Jews and then Gentiles , so that two peoples will become one, united in Christ who breaks down the hostility between these 2 groups.

Predestine is just a word to mean that God pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, that's all. He offers to all, but he did NOT choose who (individually) will repent and believe. People have to decide by their own free will whether to turn to God or not.

In Letters of Romans and Peter, words like predestination, chosen people and Elect have to be read with contextually in the light of Ephesians 1,2,3. And Ephesians has to be interpreted in context of the Scriptures.

Individual predestination is a wrong theory because many Christians refuse to consider context, but instead indulge in words and verses. It is a strange thing but they preferred to be fascinated by a few words, debate in circle around a single word/verse, and throw all the wrong theories at it.

Your argument here has already been covered in this thread; as well as refuted by other posters.

SwordmanJr · Aug 30, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Will always end in rejection. This is why redemption is always dependent on God's sovereign will.

So, what's the basis for His choosing to NOT redeem someone? Disbelief is indeed the basic one, but what else?

renniks · Aug 30, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
So I guess in the sense of the centurion and the Greek woman; He didn't "wish to". Again though, that's not an issue of predestination, it's an issue of God's omniscience. So in that sense it would not matter what side of the predestination argument you fall on. Jesus flat out - just did not know!

All guesswork on your part.

renniks · Aug 30, 2019

Just the fact that he could resist God means Calvinist get it wrong. You assume Paul had no choice, but that's just an assumption.His conversion with no more irresistible than anyone else's, just more dramatic than most.

The Righterzpen said:
Acts 9:5
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Apparently Paul was "kicking"; Yet Jesus was intent on hunting him down!

The Righterzpen · Aug 30, 2019

SwordmanJr said:
So, what's the basis for His choosing to NOT redeem someone? Disbelief is indeed the basic one, but what else?

His basis was that if He didn't choose to redeem some; we'd all be condemned.

What "system" did God use to choose who to redeem? I have no idea because none deserve that redemption. Call it "the Divine cosmic lottery" if you will? Of the billions of unredeemed God had to choose from; you or I have just as much a chance of being elect as anyone else. God has no reason to save any of us.

The evidence of one being elect is that they do believe. You'd made the point about people wanting to think God shares His throne with them. (Which that was a well put illustration; by the way!) So what more is "God sharing His throne" than my will is the ultimate determinant factor in my eternal destiny?

The Righterzpen · Aug 30, 2019

renniks said:
All guesswork on your part.

No, it's just your refusal to see that your question here is simply in relation to God's omniscience and not the subject of predestination or election at all. The text is very clear. Jesus flat out just didn't know.

The Righterzpen · Aug 30, 2019

renniks said:
Just the fact that he could resist God means Calvinist get it wrong. You assume Paul had no choice, but that's just an assumption.His conversion with no more irresistible than anyone else's, just more dramatic than most.

The thing that the text illustrates is that Paul did resist; and despite his resistance he was redeemed any ways. The fact this illustrates is that all of humanity resists and if it were not for God's intervention; none would be redeemed.

renniks · Aug 30, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
The thing that the text illustrates is that Paul did resist; and despite his resistance he was redeemed any ways. The fact this illustrates is that all of humanity resists and if it were not for God's intervention; none would be redeemed.

Of course none would be redeemed if God's Spirit didn't move. But the Spirit is not irresistible. How can one grieve an irresistible Spirit? Why does Scripture say that the Israelites always resisted his Holy Spirit? Acts 7:51

roman2819 · Aug 30, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
No, it's just your refusal to see that your question here is simply in relation to God's omniscience and not the subject of predestination or election at all. The text is very clear. Jesus flat out just didn't know.

Jesus knows that God does not choose which individuals to save. The Bible was referring to corporate predestination ie God had predestined to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Interpret Scriptures in context, instead of taking words out of context.

roman2819 · Aug 30, 2019

renniks said:
Just the fact that he could resist God means Calvinist get it wrong. You assume Paul had no choice, but that's just an assumption.His conversion with no more irresistible than anyone else's, just more dramatic than most.

Agreed. When God called Paul, he could have rejected. He had the free will to choose either way, but he believed.

Many Christians mistaken that God override Paul's free will but that is not correct.

renniks · Aug 30, 2019

nolidad said:
So are you saying that Romans 9 has nothing for New Testament saints and we have nothing iin it.

Jesus does not have power over gentile lump pf clays? Top do with them as He will? It is just for OT saints?

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

So this is not for the church then? OK!

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

We can ignore this as well?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

So these are OT gentiles as well?

Paul shows us how God worked out the redemption plan in spite of the resistance of his people. Yes, it is showing us that God worked out his plan, regardless of what men may do. With regard to the Potter and the clay, go back and read the Jeremiah portion. The Israelites were vessels of wrath because of their rebellion, and yet Paul says God had mercy and patience with them, so that he could have mercy on the gentiles also. Why would he have to endure with long suffering, if he always got his way? It's not about individual election at all.
"If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it."
God's plan is not a unchanging blueprint, and men are not his robots.

The Righterzpen · Aug 30, 2019

renniks said:
Of course none would be redeemed if God's Spirit didn't move. But the Spirit is not irresistible. How can one grieve an irresistible Spirit? Why does Scripture say that the Israelites always resisted his Holy Spirit? Acts 7:51

Maybe it's that you misunderstand what "irresistible grace" means in the theological context of the doctrines of grace?

The Spirit is certainly grieved by rebellion and even the redeemed can and do rebel. There's a passage in Job 15:

15 Behold, He puts no trust in His saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

16 How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinks iniquity like water?

17 I will shew thee, hear me; and that which I have seen I will declare;

Irresistible grace means that in the end; those who God will redeem, will be redeemed despite their rebellion. This is a comfort to those who are elect because how often do people who desire to sincerely obey, find they screwed up and start to wonder: "Have I really done it this time? I don't deserve mercy. Yet God I have no other hope but that You would grant it!"

Irresistible grace does not mean sin suddenly doesn't exist and that believers can not grieve the Spirit of God.

renniks · Aug 30, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
What "system" did God use to choose who to redeem? I have no idea because none deserve that redemption. Call it "the Divine cosmic lottery" if you will? Of the billions of unredeemed God had to choose from; you or I have just as much a chance of being elect as anyone else. God has no reason to save any of us.

If this is the case you have no way of knowing if you are saved or not.

Kaon · Aug 30, 2019

lambofgod43985889 said:
well, it's an intense debate, according to calvinism we are predestined so:
-the catholic will keep being catholic
-the protestant will keep being evangelical
-the christian orthodox will keep being orthodox
-the follower of judaism will keep their religion

maybe all these movements think they are right and the others religions lead to hell

Presidestination is the human understanding of consequences:

Everything that has happened will happen.

The Righterzpen · Aug 30, 2019

roman2819 said:
Jesus knows that God does not choose which individuals to save. The Bible was referring to corporate predestination ie God had predestined to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Interpret Scriptures in context, instead of taking words out of context.

And as I have stated; your accusation has already been addressed in this thread.

The "cooperate election" argument does not make sense in the light that not all Jews were saved and not all gentiles are saved either. The individuals who show forth evidence of their election are the individuals who are obedient; regardless of what nation they were born in.

Those who are obedient (because they were elect) "collectively" make up the body of Christ. So in that sense if you wanted to say election is "cooperate" that would be the only sense that would be true in. Individuals cooperatively make up the eternal church.

renniks · Aug 30, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Irresistible grace does not mean sin suddenly doesn't exist and that believers can not grieve the Spirit of God.

So salvation is irresistible but sanctification isn't? People can and do Fall away into false teachings and unbelief. To those who rely on other things for their salvation, Christ will be of no more use to them, and Jesus will cut off the branches that do not abide in him.

roman2819 · Aug 30, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Maybe it's that you misunderstand what "irresistible grace" means in the theological context of the doctrines of grace?

The Spirit is certainly grieved by rebellion and even the redeemed can and do rebel. There's a passage in Job 15:

15 Behold, He puts no trust in His saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

16 How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinks iniquity like water?

17 I will shew thee, hear me; and that which I have seen I will declare;

Irresistible grace means that in the end; those who God will redeem, will be redeemed despite their rebellion. This is a comfort to those who are elect because how often do people who desire to sincerely obey, find they screwed up and start to wonder: "Have I really done it this time? I don't deserve mercy. Yet God I have no other hope but that You would grant it!"

Irresistible grace does not mean sin suddenly doesn't exist and that believers can not grieve the Spirit of God.

No, irresistible grace is not the way you say it. Irresistible grace simply means that sinners do not have to do good works to be redeemed, but instead, they need to repent in Jesus, and God will save them. However, people have to decide whether to accept such grace or not.

Your various quotes from Job to etc are out of context. If you ignore context, you can say anything.

The Righterzpen · Aug 30, 2019

renniks said:
If this is the case you have no way of knowing if you are saved or not.

No, security comes from seeing God working in your life to produce obedience. If you are constantly living in a lifestyle of disobedience; (you're a perpetual alcoholic, fornicator, adulterer, thief, idolater etc.) then yes, you have all reason to fear.

If you're new to the faith, struggling with your sin and afraid of God's wrath; that's a good sign. Because in the very least it means that you are not taking grace for granted.

renniks · Aug 30, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
No, security comes from seeing God working in your life to produce obedience. If you are constantly living in a lifestyle of disobedience; (you're a perpetual alcoholic, fornicator, adulterer, thief, idolater etc.) then yes, you have all reason to fear.

If you're new to the faith, struggling with your sin and afraid of God's wrath; that's a good sign. Because in the very least it means that you are not taking grace for granted.

Yeah Calvin had a solution for this, he called it effervescent Grace. The theory that God would enlighten you temporarily, make you think you were his, and then drop you like a hot potato. Obviously,if you think God is just picking and choosing people based on nothing, you can never know if your salvation is real or not.

The Righterzpen · Aug 30, 2019

renniks said:
So salvation is irresistible but sanctification isn't? People can and do Fall away into false teachings and unbelief. To those who rely on other things for their salvation, Christ will be of no more use to them, and Jesus will cut off the branches that do not abide in him.

Those that fall away into false teaching and unbelief and die in that state; are only showing evidence that they were never redeemed to begin with. One can fall away and then later genuinely come to redemption; that happens. If one dies in a state of unbelief though; that only proves that they weren't elect to begin with.

Now they may believe that they are believers and be in for a "rude awakening" come judgement day. "Many will say unto me; Lord, Lord did we not do....." And I will say unto them: "Be gone from me you workers of iniquity for I never knew you."

Now that is absolutely the SCARIEST verse in the entire Bible!

we are ALL PREDESTINED

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