Loving Jesus enough to obey Him ensures salvation

nolidad said:

But you don't live by faith- you live by works!

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Which works of the Law am I depending on "for my salvation"?

You forget that redemption comes in three parts- redeemed from the penalty of sin at the cross, redeemed from the power of sin as we are being sanctified as Hebrews says, and then in heaven redeemed from the presence of sin!

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I would like you to provide at least one scripture to prove each of the three points I must have faith in.
But then aren't those three things "works" in your line of thinking?
I mean, really, isn't having faith a "work"?

It is sad you are disobedient to the Scriptures- you are looking unto your works as a debt God owes you while we look unto Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith.

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How ironic.
You castigate me for obedience to God and His word, but claim I am disobedient to God and His word.

nolidad said:

You are correct but not in the way it appears you lean.
And that makes you a salvation by works guy which is contrary to the gospel!

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Faith without obedience is dead.
The works mentioned by Paul were the works of the Mosaic Law...circumcision, dietary laws, feast keeping, tithing, etc.
Not adherence to the Savior's every word.

Throughout the New testament- eternal life is a gift and we are constantly told it is not by works- you say it is of works! That makes you at odds with the teachings of the New Testament!

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Faith without obedience is dead.
Obedience without faith is impossible.

nolidad said:

Well see that is because it is you!
But to Jesus He is constantly working in the hearts of HIs children who have come to HIm (and He will in no way cast out) He is working to sanctify us daily as the Scriptures say!

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Show the scripture that says Jesus is shedding His atoning blood over and over again for the man without God's seed in them. (As they who are reborn of God do have His seed in them, which prevents them from being able to bear evil fruit. 1 John 3:9)
They would be under the Heb 6:4-6 teaching...
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
If they are "being renewed again", it would manifest that they never were "enlightened", or "tasted the heavenly gift", or were "made partakers of the world to come".
One "renewing" per customer...according to the writer of Hebrews.

nolidad said:

Well teh Bible clearly describes those.

But if a person turns 70X 7 in a day- Jesus forgives 70X 7 and 1 John 1 :9 comes into effect despite your total misunderstanding and reinterpretation of the verses!

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So they start their Christianity over and over every time they commit a sin...
That almost sounds like...WORKS!

nolidad said:

I have met legions of people who disagree with me!

But it is your attempt to tell me what I believe when I have not revealed that is your sin! YOu do not have to apologize- but it is still sin to be presumptious and bear false witness against someone!

It is not what we disagree on that is the sin issue on your life- it is you declaring what I think without even seeing of your thought is correct that has caused you to be presumptuous and bear false witness.

According to your theology- you have lost your salvation. Now maybe we can tell you about teh Jesus who died, rose and ascended and sits in glory now, so you can look to HIm for th efree gift instead of having to try8 to work your way into heaven.

Good works are vital- but because I am saved, not to maintain the gift given to me!

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Your thoughts are clearly evident on this thread.
You promote a faith that requires no absolute love of God above all else.
You erroneously call my love for God "works for salvation".

Phil W said:

Your thoughts are clearly evident on this thread.
You promote a faith that requires no absolute love of God above all else.
You erroneously call my love for God "works for salvation".

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Once again you err, because you try to read my mind!

YOu even admitted you expect to be rewarded for your good works , your faux perfect life!

Romans 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Phil W said:

So they start their Christianity over and over every time they commit a sin...
That almost sounds like...WORKS!

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You say that for you have so little understanding of what Grace and mercy is! YOu equate being a believer with absolute perfection which is unbiblical!

It is your lack of understanding that has you in bondage.

Phil W said:

Show the scripture that says Jesus is shedding His atoning blood over and over again for the man without God's seed in them. (As they who are reborn of God do have His seed in them, which prevents them from being able to bear evil fruit. 1 John 3:9)
They would be under the Heb 6:4-6 teaching...
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
If they are "being renewed again", it would manifest that they never were "enlightened", or "tasted the heavenly gift", or were "made partakers of the world to come".
One "renewing" per customer...according to the writer of Hebrews.

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I can't ! For He shed His blood once for all time!

You also make the typical error fo the legalist pharisee in using this verse from Hebrews! If you knew what it meant you would not look so uninformed of Gods Word!

Phil W said:

Faith without obedience is dead.
The works mentioned by Paul were the works of the Mosaic Law...circumcision, dietary laws, feast keeping, tithing, etc.
Not adherence to the Savior's every word.

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James wrote this!

Phil W said:

Not adherence to the Savior's every word.

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So have you sold everything you have, given it to the poor and are following HIm??
Have you gone into the world to share the good news that Jesus died for peoples sins?

or do you have your twisted excuses why these should not apply to you!

Phil W said:

Which works of the Law am I depending on "for my salvation"?

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I didn't say "the Law" that is your assumption- but you are relying on works of obedience without one failure otherwise you are lost!

Phil W said:

I would like you to provide at least one scripture to prove each of the three points I must have faith in.
But then aren't those three things "works" in your line of thinking?
I mean, really, isn't having faith a "work"?

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Well if you require trusting in someone and what they accomplished on your behalf a work- so be it!

Just another line where you misunderstand the words of the one you expect to reward you because of your works of obedience!

YOu are living outside of the age of grace!

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

You are a verse 4 person!

But I am a verse 8 person. God now will not impute any sin -past present or future (as the verbs shows) So I am blessed. Does it make me want to sin? God forbid! It causes me to strive more and more to please HIm!

You limit the love of god to 0 imperfection once a person is saved! This is truly sad! and so deceived!

nolidad said:

Once again you err, because you try to read my mind!
YOu even admitted you expect to be rewarded for your good works , your faux perfect life!

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It is written..."For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor 5:10)

Romans 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

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I'm sure glad my works are because of Christ in me and not an effort to use the Mosaic Law to earn what has been graciously given to me already..

nolidad said:

You say that for you have so little understanding of what Grace and mercy is! YOu equate being a believer with absolute perfection which is unbiblical!

It is your lack of understanding that has you in bondage.

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I equate belief in God and in His message of redemption with submission to Him.
How can we go against what we say we believe in?
Jesus said the truth would make us free...from service to sin, in John 8:32-34.
The folks in bondage are they who continue to commit sin.
They can only serve one master, and that master is sin.

nolidad said:

I can't ! For He shed His blood once for all time!

You also make the typical error fo the legalist pharisee in using this verse from Hebrews! If you knew what it meant you would not look so uninformed of Gods Word!

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I'm not at all confused about Heb 6:4-6.
It is impossible for those who have tasted of the things to come to be renewed again after falling away.
It is really straight forward.

nolidad said:

James wrote this!

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What "this"?

So have you sold everything you have, given it to the poor and are following HIm??
Have you gone into the world to share the good news that Jesus died for peoples sins?

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Yes I have.

or do you have your twisted excuses why these should not apply to you!

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I preach a doctrine of love of God above all else and love for our neighbor as we love ourselves.
I don't teach accommodating future sin.

I have a question for you.
If your buddy in the trenches of war jumped on a hand-grenade to save your life, would you go over and kick him in the ribs?
That is what sinners do when they commit sin after a supposed conversion.
There is a love for something else above their love of God...and we all know idolaters are not going to heaven.

nolidad said:

I didn't say "the Law" that is your assumption- but you are relying on works of obedience without one failure otherwise you are lost!

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The Mosaic Law as a method of gaining salvation is what Paul was railing against.
Not against obedience to God.
You say you love God, but can offend Him without worry.
How is that love?

Well if you require trusting in someone and what they accomplished on your behalf a work- so be it!

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Isn't that faith?

Just another line where you misunderstand the words of the one you expect to reward you because of your works of obedience!
YOu are living outside of the age of grace!

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I guess our continued sin is what Jesus had in mind for us when He died for us, eh?
I can't agree.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
You are a verse 4 person!

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I'm not using the works of the Law to gain salvation.
I am obedient to the One who saved me because I love Him more than anything.

But I am a verse 8 person. God now will not impute any sin -past present or future (as the verbs shows) So I am blessed. Does it make me want to sin? God forbid! It causes me to strive more and more to please HIm!

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Why do you sin then?
It seems it is because (you think) you can get away with it.

You limit the love of god to 0 imperfection once a person is saved! This is truly sad! and so deceived!

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Not at all.
God loves all men, and wants all of them to love Him in return.
Is that too much for Him to ask?
There is no love in sin.

BCsenior said:

Loving Jesus enough to obey Him ensures salvation

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Faith ensures salvation. Saving works follows faith
but has no power of it's own.

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.


John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Galatians 2:16
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:28
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Acts 16:31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Hebrews 11:1-40
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.

Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Acts 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Galatians 3:24
So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.

Romans 4:3
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Romans 1:5
Through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,

Acts 11:14
He will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’

Acts 10:43
To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 4:12
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Ephesians 6:16
In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one;

2 Corinthians 5:7
For we walk by faith, not by sight.

Phil W said:

How ironic.
You castigate me for obedience to God and His word, but claim I am disobedient to God and His word.

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Wrong again !

Phil W said:

I preach a doctrine of love of God above all else and love for our neighbor as we love ourselves.
I don't teach accommodating future sin.

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Nor do I preach accommodation. I preach the Word of God that 1 JOhn 1 :9 is there when a human fails.

Phil W said:

Not at all.
God loves all men, and wants all of them to love Him in return.
Is that too much for Him to ask?
There is no love in sin.

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Yes you do demand absolute perfection or loss of salvation. He is omniscient and knows all men will not live perfectly. That is why the New Testament is rich with His mercy and Grace and continued forgiveness to HIs children. YOu make HIm to be a one chance God and that is it! That is not the Bible.

Phil W said:

Isn't that faith?

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YOu are getting close now! Faith is not a work but a complete trust int eh one who died and physically rose and the full and complete payment for ones sins! YOur serious and grave problem is you teach that Jesus only died for the sins you committed until you got saved. After that you teach if one sins they are lost forever! This is not the bible but the word of Phil!

Phil W said:

I guess our continued sin is what Jesus had in mind for us when He died for us, eh?
I can't agree.

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Once again you twist my words

Phil W said:

I equate belief in God and in His message of redemption with submission to Him.
How can we go against what we say we believe in?
Jesus said the truth would make us free...from service to sin, in John 8:32-34.
The folks in bondage are they who continue to commit sin.
They can only serve one master, and that master is sin.

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You 0only say this because you do not know God or His love and mercy He has for His children while He is in the process of sanctifying us. He has perfected us as His Word says now He is making us holy! Your word is different.

Phil W said:

I'm not at all confused about Heb 6:4-6.
It is impossible for those who have tasted of the things to come to be renewed again after falling away.
It is really straight forward.

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If you think this refers to believers- then your straight forward is straight as a bowl of cooked spagetti!

Phil W said:

I'm not using the works of the Law to gain salvation.
I am obedient to the One who saved me because I love Him more than anything.

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Not to gain salvation but to maintain salvation. And as you wrote you expect to be rewarded for your obedience- you made God a debtor to you as Paul wrote in Romans 4. Your definition of love while based on a right foundation is so skewed.

Phil W said:

I guess our continued sin is what Jesus had in mind for us when He died for us, eh?
I can't agree.

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1 John 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted

I thank God through Jesus Christ that Paul and john do not follow your theology!

See I do not promote sin nor pooh-pooh sin. I just know that a believers sins are already paid foras gods Word so often says! So while we are growing in holiness and knowledge of His Word (see we were not blessed with a complete memorized bible like you at the moment of salvation), we take comfgort in knowing our Father in heaven does not cast us out, but works with us!
Hebrews 12:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

I do pity you and pray for you.

nolidad said:

Nor do I preach accommodation. I preach the Word of God that 1 JOhn 1 :9 is there when a human fails.

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If one confesses their sin, they are from then on expected to walk in the light-God: wherein is no sin.
Otherwise, they are walking in darkness and have no fellowship with God.

Yes you do demand absolute perfection or loss of salvation.

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So does God, having blessed us with the gift of repentance from sin, rebirth from His incorruptible seed, the gift of the Holy Ghost, scriptures for guidance, and prayer...plus much much more.
Those reborn of God cannot commit sin.

He is omniscient and knows all men will not live perfectly.

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Thankfully, He also knows some will have a true repentance from sin, and will walk in the Spirit INSTEAD of in the darkness.

That is why the New Testament is rich with His mercy and Grace and continued forgiveness to HIs children. YOu make HIm to be a one chance God and that is it! That is not the Bible.

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Tell that to Adam and Eve.
Or Moses.

YOu are getting close now! Faith is not a work but a complete trust int eh one who died and physically rose and the full and complete payment for ones sins! YOur serious and grave problem is you teach that Jesus only died for the sins you committed until you got saved. After that you teach if one sins they are lost forever! This is not the bible but the word of Phil!

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I saw this in James 1 while I was reading this morning...
"My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience."
If temptation is the trying of faith, what does failing to resist temptation say about the faith?
It says it is futile faith, false faith, lack of faith.

Once again you twist my words
You 0only say this because you do not know God or His love and mercy He has for His children while He is in the process of sanctifying us. He has perfected us as His Word says now He is making us holy! Your word is different.

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Perfect, unholy, sinners.
What wonders you have revealed from your doctrines!

If you think this refers to believers- then your straight forward is straight as a bowl of cooked spagetti!

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Of course Heb 6:4-6 doesn't apply to believers.
It applies to those whose faith is false.
They rely on a false doctrine of continually crucifying Christ over and over again for the remission of more and more sins.
Those who are reborn of God have God's seed in them to protect them from temptation and sin.
The false believers do not.

Not to gain salvation but to maintain salvation. And as you wrote you expect to be rewarded for your obedience- you made God a debtor to you as Paul wrote in Romans 4. Your definition of love while based on a right foundation is so skewed.

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Believe me, all men will be rewarded for what they do in these vessels on earth.
For some the reward will be good, and for others it will be dire.
What do you suppose God will use to determine which gets which?