Why KJV only?

Paul McGraw

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I agree with all of the points in the statement of purpose for this faith-group, so I am a fundamentalist. I do not agree with the KJV only position. I often compare several translations of a text to be sure I fully understand. My usual Bible for reading is the ESV. Why do some Fundamentalists continue to adhere to a KJV only position?
 

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Well, the 1611 edition was different than the one you find at your local bookstore.

Also, pronunciation of words would resemble a Lowland Scottish Accent. This video is the closest thing I could find on the internet: Original King James Pronunciation.
 
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I agree with all of the points in the statement of purpose for this faith-group, so I am a fundamentalist. I do not agree with the KJV only position. I often compare several translations of a text to be sure I fully understand. My usual Bible for reading is the ESV. Why do some Fundamentalists continue to adhere to a KJV only position?

I just posted a lengthy explanation of this elsewhere so I will just copy it here...

The issue that those who reject modern translations have doesn't really come down to readability but reliability. The Geneva Bible of the 1500s, the King James Bible of the 1600s-1700s, and the New King James Bible draw upon what is known as the majority text, the extant Greek manuscripts that we have of which 95% agree.

However, along came Brooke Foss Westcott (1825-1901) was born at Birmingham and Fenton John Anthony Hort (1828-1892) at Dublin. In 1851 Westcott was ordained an Anglican "priest" and Hort in 1856: their careers were spent mostly in academic positions rather than pastorates. As early as 1853 they began work on their Greek text of the New Testament: this project was to occupy most of their remaining lives. In 1870 the idea of a modest revision of the A.V. was sanctioned by the Southern Convocation of the Church of England, and this provided the opportunity for Westcott and Hort to introduce their radical changes. They defended the inclusion of a Unitarian scholar on the Revision Committee. "The New Testament in the Original Greek" was published in 1881, as was the Revised Version based upon it: this latter failed to gain lasting popularity, but the Westcott-Hort text and theory has dominated the scene since.

And your modern "readable" Bibles are based on this (tiny) minority/critical text.

If you read some quotes from these skeptics, you'll see they were people who should have been anywhere near a Bible translation project.

Oct., 22nd after Trinity Sunday - Westcott: "Do you not understand the meaning of Theological 'Development'? It is briefly this, that in an early time some doctrine is proposed in a simple or obscure form, or even but darkly hinted at, which in succeeding ages,as the wants of men's minds grow, grows with them - in fact, that Christianity is always progressive in its principles and doctrines" (Life, Vol.I, p.78).

Dec. 23rd - Westcott: "My faith is still wavering. I cannot determine how much we must believe; how much, in fact, is necessarily required of a member of the Church." (Life, Vol.I, p.46).

Aug. 11th - Westcott: "I never read an account of a miracle (in Scripture?) but I seem instinctively to feel its improbability, and discover some want of evidence in the account of it." (Life, Vol.I, p.52).

1890 Mar. 4th - Westcott: "No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a_literal history - I could never understand how any one reading them with open eyes could think they did

1860 May 1st - Hort to Lightfoot: "If you make a decided conviction of the absolute infallibility of the N.T. practically a sine qua non for co-operation, I fear I could not join you,
(Life, Vol. I, p.420).

May 5th - Westcott to Hort: "at present I find the presumption in favour of the absolute truth - I reject the word infallibility - of Holy Scripture overwhelming." (Life, Vol.I, p.207).

Wescott & Hort

I'm not trying to attribute verbal plenary inspiration to the King James Bible as some do. Nor am I saying that it is perfect and cannot be improved upon to be more accessible to those who speak modern English.

However, modern Bible translation projects always seem to throw out the baby with the bathwater so to speak and instead of simply creating a 2019 non-dynamically translated Bible from the majority text they turn to unreliable sources as the root of their efforts.

Hope that clarifies the issue some. It really isn't just an issue of English grammar and vocabulary.
 
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Ozarks Prodigal

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I agree with all of the points in the statement of purpose for this faith-group, so I am a fundamentalist. I do not agree with the KJV only position. I often compare several translations of a text to be sure I fully understand. My usual Bible for reading is the ESV. Why do some Fundamentalists continue to adhere to a KJV only position?

I'm with you on this subject and frequently pull up parallel versions of the Bible to cross check what's being said. However, most of the time, I use the NASB with frequent checks of the KJV and Young's Literal Translation and, assorted dictionaries and lexicons when I think it's a key word. I try not to get too carried away but search enough to be comfortable with the perceived meaning of what I'm reading.

Why so much cross checking? Newtheran did a good job of explaining my rationale for being suspicious of some translations at times and the levels I go to in my search depends on how suspicious I am of the text I'm reading especially if I've read an article somewhere that causes me to start digging. From what I've read, there are translation mistakes in all versions... this in itself is reason enough to be thorough in my research. Do I doubt the Bible? Absolutely not, just the translations done by some of those that were involved whether a lack of skills or, personal beliefs colored their work.

What's it all boil down to? Trust but verify.
 
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Paul McGraw

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I just posted a lengthy explanation of this elsewhere so I will just copy it here...

The issue that those who reject modern translations have doesn't really come down to readability but reliability. The Geneva Bible of the 1500s, the King James Bible of the 1600s-1700s, and the New King James Bible draw upon what is known as the majority text, the extant Greek manuscripts that we have of which 95% agree.

However, along came Brooke Foss Westcott (1825-1901) was born at Birmingham and Fenton John Anthony Hort (1828-1892) at Dublin. In 1851 Westcott was ordained an Anglican "priest" and Hort in 1856: their careers were spent mostly in academic positions rather than pastorates. As early as 1853 they began work on their Greek text of the New Testament: this project was to occupy most of their remaining lives. In 1870 the idea of a modest revision of the A.V. was sanctioned by the Southern Convocation of the Church of England, and this provided the opportunity for Westcott and Hort to introduce their radical changes. They defended the inclusion of a Unitarian scholar on the Revision Committee. "The New Testament in the Original Greek" was published in 1881, as was the Revised Version based upon it: this latter failed to gain lasting popularity, but the Westcott-Hort text and theory has dominated the scene since.

And your modern "readable" Bibles are based on this (tiny) minority/critical text.

If you read some quotes from these skeptics, you'll see they were people who should have been anywhere near a Bible translation project.

Oct., 22nd after Trinity Sunday - Westcott: "Do you not understand the meaning of Theological 'Development'? It is briefly this, that in an early time some doctrine is proposed in a simple or obscure form, or even but darkly hinted at, which in succeeding ages,as the wants of men's minds grow, grows with them - in fact, that Christianity is always progressive in its principles and doctrines" (Life, Vol.I, p.78).

Dec. 23rd - Westcott: "My faith is still wavering. I cannot determine how much we must believe; how much, in fact, is necessarily required of a member of the Church." (Life, Vol.I, p.46).

Aug. 11th - Westcott: "I never read an account of a miracle (in Scripture?) but I seem instinctively to feel its improbability, and discover some want of evidence in the account of it." (Life, Vol.I, p.52).

1890 Mar. 4th - Westcott: "No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a_literal history - I could never understand how any one reading them with open eyes could think they did

1860 May 1st - Hort to Lightfoot: "If you make a decided conviction of the absolute infallibility of the N.T. practically a sine qua non for co-operation, I fear I could not join you,
(Life, Vol. I, p.420).

May 5th - Westcott to Hort: "at present I find the presumption in favour of the absolute truth - I reject the word infallibility - of Holy Scripture overwhelming." (Life, Vol.I, p.207).

Wescott & Hort

I'm not trying to attribute verbal plenary inspiration to the King James Bible as some do. Nor am I saying that it is perfect and cannot be improved upon to be more accessible to those who speak modern English.

However, modern Bible translation projects always seem to throw out the baby with the bathwater so to speak and instead of simply creating a 2019 non-dynamically translated Bible from the majority text they turn to unreliable sources as the root of their efforts.

Hope that clarifies the issue some. It really isn't just an issue of English grammar and vocabulary.

Thank you for the full explanation. I often check numerous bible translations regarding a text, usually out of just curiosity, but sometimes to clarify meaning. I cannot ever remember running across any difference in meaning, although often there is a difference in word choice.

Several years ago I read the entire book of Mathew in both the KJV and the NIV. I would read a page in one, then read the same verses in the other. I could not find a single contradiction between the two.

Perhaps you could enlighten me as to the most egregious translation issue you have found between, say the KJV and NIV or ESV. As I said, I personally know of none.
 
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Thank you for the full explanation. I often check numerous bible translations regarding a text, usually out of just curiosity, but sometimes to clarify meaning. I cannot ever remember running across any difference in meaning, although often there is a difference in word choice.

Several years ago I read the entire book of Mathew in both the KJV and the NIV. I would read a page in one, then read the same verses in the other. I could not find a single contradiction between the two.

Perhaps you could enlighten me as to the most egregious translation issue you have found between, say the KJV and NIV or ESV. As I said, I personally know of none.

http://helpersofyourjoy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/THEKJVvsModern.pdf

Has a comparison which shows the errors that the Modern translations contain as a result of abandoning the majority text.
 
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Perhaps you could enlighten me as to the most egregious translation issue you have found between, say the KJV and NIV or ESV. As I said, I personally know of none.

The ESV committee believes in complimentarianism to such an extent that they have altered a doctrine about the trinity to support it. They say that the trinity is a parallel to the marriage such that God compares to the father, the Son compares to the wife and the Holy Spirit compares to the children. They say that the Son is eternally subordinate to the father (ESS, or Eternal Subordination of the Son). Then they use this to harden their position on marital gender roles. This doctrine comes out in their translation of the ESV.

For example, 1 Cor 11:3:
KJV: But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
ESV: But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Changing "aner" to her husband introduces and imposes a specific meaning to the text that was not there before. Previously the verse was not necessarily addressing marital roles; in fact it hardly can be.

If you are to read this literally, assuming authority and roles, it would be saying that the woman does not have a relationship to Christ but through a man (ESV changed it to her husband), and Christ has no authority over her. Notice in the text that whatever Christ is the man, the man is to the woman. So, if you are to substitute "authority" for "head", and if you are to believe what you read, it would say that only the man has authority over the woman (not Christ). It sets man up as the woman's savior and God (what Christ is to the man, man is to the woman). This contradicts the entirety of all the rest of the Bible!

In the Greek language at the time, "head" did not imply authority but "source", such as head waters. The reading of the text as source makes so much more sense and does not contradict any of the rest of the Bible. Christ was indeed the source of man (he was man's Creator), man was indeed the source of the woman (she was taken from his rib), and Christ is God the Father's only begotten Son. This reads well in context with the rest of the Bible.

The ESV interprets this verse to be about gender roles and hardens its position by using the word husband instead of man. In doing so, it interjects its own opinions into God's holy word, abandons the original meaning and makes up its own Scripture. But, that helps them support the ESS doctrine.

Losing this verse from the complimentarian quiver does not defeat the argument of complimentarianism. There are other verses that complimentarians can still depend upon - they don't need this one.
 
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http://helpersofyourjoy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/THEKJVvsModern.pdf

Has a comparison which shows the errors that the Modern translations contain as a result of abandoning the majority text.

It took me some time, but I went through the entire chart and the explanations. I only compared the NIV, the NKJ and the ESV, as they are the only versions I use. I did not examine any others. I was disappointed by the chart. In absolutely every case, none of the items mentioned is representative of any consistent attempt to change the meaning of the good news of the gospel or the plan of salvation. In almost every case, footnotes in the ESV give alternate wordings from the KJ, often with the reason the final wording was chosen.

Even a little reading about the different texts used should quickly put any fears of some grand conspiracy to rest.

There are so many things to worry about in this world, such as the destruction of the family, rampant Homosexual perversion, and the murder of millions of unborn babies, yet Christians will tear into each other over this? Ridiculous, and unworthy of our energy. We should be standing firm and united against evil, not seeking reasons to divide us.
 
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Paul McGraw

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The ESV committee believes in complementarianism to such an extent that they have altered a doctrine about the trinity to support it. They say that the trinity is a parallel to the marriage such that God compares to the father, the Son compares to the wife and the Holy Spirit compares to the children. They say that the Son is eternally subordinate to the father (ESS, or Eternal Subordination of the Son). Then they use this to harden their position on marital gender roles. This doctrine comes out in their translation of the ESV.

For example, 1 Cor 11:3:
KJV: But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
ESV: But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Changing "aner" to her husband introduces and imposes a specific meaning to the text that was not there before. Previously the verse was not necessarily addressing marital roles; in fact it hardly can be.

If you are to read this literally, assuming authority and roles, it would be saying that the woman does not have a relationship to Christ but through a man (ESV changed it to her husband), and Christ has no authority over her. Notice in the text that whatever Christ is the man, the man is to the woman. So, if you are to substitute "authority" for "head", and if you are to believe what you read, it would say that only the man has authority over the woman (not Christ). It sets man up as the woman's savior and God (what Christ is to the man, man is to the woman). This contradicts the entirety of all the rest of the Bible!

In the Greek language at the time, "head" did not imply authority but "source", such as head waters. The reading of the text as source makes so much more sense and does not contradict any of the rest of the Bible. Christ was indeed the source of man (he was man's Creator), man was indeed the source of the woman (she was taken from his rib), and Christ is God the Father's only begotten Son. This reads well in context with the rest of the Bible.

The ESV interprets this verse to be about gender roles and hardens its position by using the word husband instead of man. In doing so, it interjects its own opinions into God's holy word, abandons the original meaning and makes up its own Scripture. But, that helps them support the ESS doctrine.

Losing this verse from the complimentarian quiver does not defeat the argument of complimentarianism. There are other verses that complimentarians can still depend upon - they don't need this one.

In this particular case, it is the translation of either woman or wife that leads to a difference in the use of the terms man or husband. In any event, I do not see this as a significant theological issue, as what is being discussed is conduct in church and prayer, not the plan of salvation.

I find it rather farfetched that this choice of one word somehow relates to the trinity and a deviously altered doctrine. Isn't it far more likely that the translators were simply trying to do the best job possible to honor God and Christ and the Holy Spirit? Perhaps they did not do as well as you would have done, but they were trying in good faith.

Do you believe women should keep their head covered in church and in prayer? That is what the Bible is teaching in this passage. If you are a woman, do you follow this practice? By the way, I do believe that complementarianism is Biblical and therefore the ideal way for us to live our lives.
 
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In this particular case, it is the translation of either woman or wife that leads to a difference in the use of the terms man or husband. In any event, I do not see this as a significant theological issue, as what is being discussed is conduct in church and prayer, not the plan of salvation.

I find it rather farfetched that this choice of one word somehow relates to the trinity and a deviously altered doctrine. Isn't it far more likely that the translators were simply trying to do the best job possible to honor God and Christ and the Holy Spirit? Perhaps they did not do as well as you would have done, but they were trying in good faith.

Do you believe women should keep their head covered in church and in prayer? That is what the Bible is teaching in this passage. If you are a woman, do you follow this practice? By the way, I do believe that complementarianism is Biblical and therefore the ideal way for us to live our lives.

I think his initial critique was from an egalitarian/feminist perspective.
 
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Newtheran

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It took me some time, but I went through the entire chart and the explanations. I only compared the NIV, the NKJ and the ESV, as they are the only versions I use. I did not examine any others. I was disappointed by the chart. In absolutely every case, none of the items mentioned is representative of any consistent attempt to change the meaning of the good news of the gospel or the plan of salvation. In almost every case, footnotes in the ESV give alternate wordings from the KJ, often with the reason the final wording was chosen.

Even a little reading about the different texts used should quickly put any fears of some grand conspiracy to rest.

There are so many things to worry about in this world, such as the destruction of the family, rampant Homosexual perversion, and the murder of millions of unborn babies, yet Christians will tear into each other over this? Ridiculous, and unworthy of our energy. We should be standing firm and united against evil, not seeking reasons to divide us.

I don't think that I've been tearing into anyone over this issue. The textual comparisons - and omissions - speak for themselves. You mention rampant homosexual perversion, go check out and compare the translations of 1st Corinthians 6:9.
 
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I don't think that I've been tearing into anyone over this issue. The textual comparisons - and omissions - speak for themselves. You mention rampant homosexual perversion, go check out and compare the translations of 1st Corinthians 6:9.

I apologize. I have no knowledge of you tearing into anyone. I have met some Christians who do so. Well-intentioned I'm sure.

I looked up 1st Corinthians 6:9 and was surprised. The KJV seems to mention effeminate men, then there is a very vague reference to abusing themselves with mankind. Both the NIV and ESV very specifically list homosexual men. No ambiguity. That would seem to be a stronger admonition.

If you see that the KJV brings you closer to God, by all means, you should continue to use it and recommend it. I just don't see any reason to attribute bad motives to the other translation. As for me, I have yet to come across any evidence of a nefarious purpose behind the NIV or the ESV, and yes I did read the entire chart.

But I thank you for sharing with me the argument of those opposed to other translations. Now I know.
 
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Both the NIV and ESV very specifically list homosexual men. No ambiguity. That would seem to be a stronger admonition.

The berean literal, kjv, nkjv, and geneva all specify the homosexual in so called orientation and act.

The modern translations seek to only restrict it to the act, opening the loophole for the unscriptural concept of "celibate gay christian."
 
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Paul McGraw

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The berean literal, kjv, nkjv, and geneva all specify the homosexual in so called orientation and act.

The modern translations seek to only restrict it to the act, opening the loophole for the unscriptural concept of "celibate gay christian."

Interesting. I have to think about that. One thing that immediately pops into my head is that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Yet God in his mercy offers forgiveness of sin if we trust in our Lord Jesus, are baptized, and turn away from our sin.

Is it not conceivable that a homosexual could be saved and turn away from their sin? If I lust after a beautiful woman who is not my wife, yet I do not act on my lust, can I still be saved? Interesting.

I have to go to bed now. But if you have something to add, I will eagerly read it in the morning. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this issues.
 
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In any event, I do not see this as a significant theological issue, as what is being discussed is conduct in church and prayer, not the plan of salvation.

It is of immense importance if you are a woman. Whatever Christ is to the husband, the husband is to the woman. It would be good to know your husband is your conduit to Christ or if Christ is personally available directly to you. If you read head as anything other than source, it would almost knock out any direct relationship between the woman and Christ. As we know, that would contradict the rest of the Bible. We tend to gloss over what the words actually say in that verse because we think we already know what it reads so we don't actually read it.

Further, the change of man to husband then leaves out single women or widows. This leads to a man-made embellishment of either the pastor or their father being the head in order to make the theology work that people try to pull out of this verse. I think anyone who can put their preconceptions to the side and reread the verses for exactly what it says would have to conclude that it can't be speaking of any kind of authority order.

I find it rather farfetched that this choice of one word somehow relates to the trinity and a deviously altered doctrine.

The change of word didn't cause it; the change of word is merely one subtle way it has been interjected. The the eternal subordination of the Son (ESS) heresy is a far larger than I could deal with in a simple post but you can google Grudem and Ware's doctrines on this (btw it has infiltrated much of the seminary schools by way of inclusion in Grudem's Systematic Theology textbook). They believe in complimentarianism to such an extent that they see it in everything, including the Trinity and it affects their word choices. They use this verse to claim that Christ is eternally subordinate to the Father because they change man/woman to husband/wife which leaves one to only be able to render the word "head" as authority (authority is a 2nd meaning to head in English but not in Greek), and then allows them to further construct the ESS heresy.

Isn't it far more likely that the translators were simply trying to do the best job possible to honor God and Christ and the Holy Spirit? Perhaps they did not do as well as you would have done, but they were trying in good faith.
I was willing to believe that until I studied up on this group of people, and learned that their doctrines were informing their Bible rather than vice versa.

Do you believe women should keep their head covered in church and in prayer? That is what the Bible is teaching in this passage. If you are a woman, do you follow this practice?

Actually I did do so for many years until I was led to study the passage in greater detail. After about 2 years of studying many resources I came to realize the passage's message really didn't have a lot to do with hats. If you read it carefully, the passage talks about a woman having a cover, but then in v 15 it seems to say "never mind all that! A woman's hair is her cover."

The word for cover in the Greek that is used throughout the passage can be used for either cover or hair, but the last use of cover in v. 15 is from a different Greek word that only be used for a cloth cover, where Paul says that a woman's long hair is her cover:

1 Cor 11:15: 15 But if a woman have long hair [2863], it is a glory to her: for her [long or ornamental] hair [2864] is given her for a covering [4018].

So, the word "cover" is defined in v 15 as long hair. The word used for hair here is a Greek word that indicates long hair. So if you read the passage using Paul's definition "long hair" instead of the term "cover" it will make more sense.

STRONGS NT 2863: κομάω - Usage: I wear the hair long, allow the hair to grow out.
κομάω, κόμω; (κόμη); to let the hair grow, have long hair (cf. κόμη at the end): 1 Corinthians 11:14f (In Greek writings from Homer down.)

STRONGS NT 2864: κόμη - Usage: hair, long hair.
κόμη, κόμης, ἡ (from Homer down), hair, head of hair: 1 Corinthians 11:15. (According to Schmidt (21, 2) it differs from θρίξ (the anatomical or physical term) by designating the hair as an ornament (the notion of length being only secondary and suggested).

STRONGS NT 4018: περιβόλαιον - Usage: a wrapper, mantle, veil, cloak, covering.
περιβόλαιον, περιβολαίου, τό (περιβάλλω), properly, a covering thrown around, a wrapper; in the N. T.

The passage actually had to do with not behaving in an unseemly way or bringing reputational shame upon the worship of Christians. The problem Paul was addressing was that the people of Corinth were heavily involved in worshiping a goddess. The goings on in her temple were highly sexual, orgiastic included public displays of homosexual behavior and involved men wearing effeminate, ornamental hair like women.

Paul was exhorting the Christians to appear normal to their gender and not give anyone cause to think Christian worship was anything like the 'worship' that was going on at the goddess's temple.

As to the passage about women being shaven, at the time, a woman who was accused of adultery was shaven (shorn) to publicize the shame she was accused of.

By the way, I do believe that complementarianism is Biblical and therefore the ideal way for us to live our lives.

That's fine, but you have other verses to draw from if that's your perspective; you don't need this verse to prove it. I'm not trying to make this a complimentarian discussion. That's a whole different discussion and on these forums people get pretty heated and offensive so those threads usually get shut down. We were only discussing your initial question about whether there is any passage in the ESV where the translation makes a difference so I called out one of them, 1 Cor 11:3.
 
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It is of immense importance if you are a woman. Whatever Christ is to the husband, the husband is to the woman. It would be good to know your husband is your conduit to Christ or if Christ is personally available directly to you. If you read head as anything other than source, it would almost knock out any direct relationship between the woman and Christ. As we know, that would contradict the rest of the Bible. We tend to gloss over what the words actually say in that verse because we think we already know what it reads so we don't actually read it.

Further, the change of man to husband then leaves out single women or widows. This leads to a man-made embellishment of either the pastor or their father being the head in order to make the theology work that people try to pull out of this verse. I think anyone who can put their preconceptions to the side and reread the verses for exactly what it says would have to conclude that it can't be speaking of any kind of authority order.



The change of word didn't cause it; the change of word is merely one subtle way it has been interjected. The the eternal subordination of the Son (ESS) heresy is a far larger than I could deal with in a simple post but you can google Grudem and Ware's doctrines on this (btw it has infiltrated much of the seminary schools by way of inclusion in Grudem's Systematic Theology textbook). They believe in complimentarianism to such an extent that they see it in everything, including the Trinity and it affects their word choices. They use this verse to claim that Christ is eternally subordinate to the Father because they change man/woman to husband/wife which leaves one to only be able to render the word "head" as authority (authority is a 2nd meaning to head in English but not in Greek), and then allows them to further construct the ESS heresy.

I was willing to believe that until I studied up on this group of people, and learned that their doctrines were informing their Bible rather than vice versa.



Actually I did do so for many years until I was led to study the passage in greater detail. After about 2 years of studying many resources I came to realize the passage's message really didn't have a lot to do with hats. If you read it carefully, the passage talks about a woman having a cover, but then in v 15 it seems to say "never mind all that! A woman's hair is her cover."

The word for cover in the Greek that is used throughout the passage can be used for either cover or hair, but the last use of cover in v. 15 is from a different Greek word that only be used for a cloth cover, where Paul says that a woman's long hair is her cover:

1 Cor 11:15: 15 But if a woman have long hair [2863], it is a glory to her: for her [long or ornamental] hair [2864] is given her for a covering [4018].

So, the word "cover" is defined in v 15 as long hair. The word used for hair here is a Greek word that indicates long hair. So if you read the passage using Paul's definition "long hair" instead of the term "cover" it will make more sense.

STRONGS NT 2863: κομάω - Usage: I wear the hair long, allow the hair to grow out.
κομάω, κόμω; (κόμη); to let the hair grow, have long hair (cf. κόμη at the end): 1 Corinthians 11:14f (In Greek writings from Homer down.)

STRONGS NT 2864: κόμη - Usage: hair, long hair.
κόμη, κόμης, ἡ (from Homer down), hair, head of hair: 1 Corinthians 11:15. (According to Schmidt (21, 2) it differs from θρίξ (the anatomical or physical term) by designating the hair as an ornament (the notion of length being only secondary and suggested).

STRONGS NT 4018: περιβόλαιον - Usage: a wrapper, mantle, veil, cloak, covering.
περιβόλαιον, περιβολαίου, τό (περιβάλλω), properly, a covering thrown around, a wrapper; in the N. T.

The passage actually had to do with not behaving in an unseemly way or bringing reputational shame upon the worship of Christians. The problem Paul was addressing was that the people of Corinth were heavily involved in worshiping a goddess. The goings on in her temple were highly sexual, orgiastic included public displays of homosexual behavior and involved men wearing effeminate, ornamental hair like women.

Paul was exhorting the Christians to appear normal to their gender and not give anyone cause to think Christian worship was anything like the 'worship' that was going on at the goddess's temple.

As to the passage about women being shaven, at the time, a woman who was accused of adultery was shaven (shorn) to publicize the shame she was accused of.



That's fine, but you have other verses to draw from if that's your perspective; you don't need this verse to prove it. I'm not trying to make this a complimentarian discussion. That's a whole different discussion and on these forums people get pretty heated and offensive so those threads usually get shut down. We were only discussing your initial question about whether there is any passage in the ESV where the translation makes a difference so I called out one of them, 1 Cor 11:3.

Thank you for telling me about the difference you see, and the motives you attribute to the translation team. Personally, I was very interested in hearing about the worship of this goddess, as that is further evidence of the logic behind God's directions on the issue.

If I accept your view that "covering" means hair, then I suppose all Christian men need to shave their heads before worship. Since there is no evidence of Christian men ever having done so, I conclude that a plain reading of the plain words is, as usual, most appropriate. As far as the mention of the women's hair, I think that is simply offered for comparison, not as a means to define the word covering.

Perhaps it is time for a new denomination where all the men shave their heads so that their heads will be uncovered. I would have an advantage, I am naturally bald.
 
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If I accept your view that "covering" means hair, then I suppose all Christian men need to shave their heads before worship.

As I stated above, the text does not render "covering" as merely hair; the word used when Paul defines it means long or ornamental hair. Men are not to have long, ornamental hair like women. As I suggested, substitute Paul's definition provided in v.15 (long hair) for the word "cover" throughout the passage. Perhaps "long, glorious hair" is a bit closer to the feel of the phrase in English, her long hair being her glory.

As far as the mention of the women's hair, I think that is simply offered for comparison, not as a means to define the word covering.

I cannot see how a plain reading of the text gets this view. Paul provides a clear definition in v. 15.
 
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