mass shootings a slightly different question

variant · Aug 4, 2019

ByTheSpirit said:
I'm glad you are so optimistic, but that's a hard pass and doesn't provide a solid solution.

Are you suggesting bake sales with discounts for other races?

Or hug-a-thons where a multi-racial and multi-ethnic group hold hands and sings kumbaya?

Every just be nicer is not a solution, its a talking point

There are literally thousands of ways for people to involve themselves especially those with creativity and drive.

The problem of evil is that it is easier to do harm and to tear down than it is to build up and do good.

The only thing good people have on their side is that there are so many more of them. It just takes some motivation, and people realizing that they can make some positive difference in the world that really matters.

ByTheSpirit · Aug 4, 2019

variant said:
There are literally thousands of ways for people to involve themselves especially those with creativity and drive.

The problem of evil is that it is easier to do harm and to tear down than it is to build up and do good.

The only thing good people have on their side is that there are so many more of them. It just takes some motivation, and people realizing that they can make some positive difference in the world that really matters.

Again, I'm glad you are optimistic about it, but it still doesn't provide a solid, tangible solution. How do we "cure" racism? How do we "cure" terrorism? You can't in the literal sense.

expos4ever · Aug 4, 2019

dogs4thewin said:
I was wondering though not in terms of them not being able to be covered or even in terms of not being covered on a local level, but more on a national level if people started to realize that a mass shooting would not get you fifteen minutes of fame so to speak if that would help.

I think you have a point - there is definitely a copycat effect.

But knowing your stance on guns (you are pro-gun, please correct me if I am wrong), I suggest you are grasping at straws to evade the obvious truth:

Guns are a problem in the USA, a nation which basically stands alone among advanced free nations in respect to your embrace of gun culture.

It may be hard for Americans to accept - what with all the chest-thumping that you do - but the rest of us have come to the sensible conclusion that, in the modern world at least, guns in the hands of citizens is a bad idea.

Yes, I agree the magnitude of the problem is exaggerated by we gun control types.

But, come on, look at the rest of the world.

variant · Aug 4, 2019

ByTheSpirit said:
Again, I'm glad you are optimistic about it, but it still doesn't provide a solid, tangible solution. How do we "cure" racism? How do we "cure" terrorism? You can't in the literal sense.

Same way we "cured" slavery, it becomes unpopular, then passee, then we forget.

My hope is that our grandchildren are looking back seriously questioning how people could hate each other over things like race.

S.O.J.I.A. · Aug 4, 2019

dogs4thewin said:
Are you supposing that all shootings are racist in nature; because that is just false.

It's much more prevalent to this problem than mental disorder or having too many guns or too much media coverage.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, it doesn't mean it didn't fall nor will ignoring it stop other trees from falling.

Keep thinking otherwise though. There's more where this came from.

GOD Shines Forth! · Aug 4, 2019

carlv_52 said:
Yeah, the answer is to not cover it in the news. Because that's why these things don't happen in other countries with the frequency they do here.

No, they're more effective using TRUCKS (and knives and bombs and...yes, guns sometimes). One truck killed at least 86 people in 2016, on Bastille Day in Nice.

SkyWriting · Aug 4, 2019

carlv_52 said:
That's interesting. What is the source of that? Is the window of time selected for a specific reason?

It kinda looks like the 2015 pro-gun rights CPRC graphic that was on Fox News (some of the numbers are different, so maybe the CPRC published a different list?) . The CPRC and John Lott may have found a unique way of defining "mass shootings" and were able to provide numbers based on that in which the US doesn't appear too bad.

Let's look at how the "outliers" work as well. Let's take Norway for instance. In 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 there were ZERO mass shootings in Norway. ZERO. 2011 was Anders Brevik's slaughter.

That's what an OUTLIER does to the data.

If you calculate the typical MEDIAN annual mass shooting deaths per million people between 2009-2015 the US comes out WAAAAY ahead. Between 2009 and 2015 the US CONSISTENTLY had mass shootings. EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR.

Tricky tricky.

Which other countries have you lived in and heard their local news?

I'll answer your question while you ignore mine.
You are correct. I am unable to confirm any legitimate source for the graphic I posted.

The Myth That the US Leads the World in Mass Shootings | Jon Miltimore

carlv_52 · Aug 4, 2019

GOD Shines Forth! said:
No, they're more effective using TRUCKS (and knives and bombs and...yes, guns sometimes). One truck killed at least 86 people in 2016, on Bastille Day in Nice.

Do you honestly really think that mass killings are more common in France and Norway than the US?

Honestly?

carlv_52 · Aug 4, 2019

SkyWriting said:
Which other countries have you lived in and heard their local news?

So you are ok with passing off intentionally skewed data and don't like it when someone calls you on it (pro-tip: learn the difference between mean and median and how skewed distributions behave).

But I'll answer your question: I've only ever lived in the US but I've worked extensively in western Europe. Germany, Finland, Belgium, Netherlands, France, England.

Oh yeah, and I can read and I have some experience with statistics.

expos4ever · Aug 4, 2019

THE W said:
It's much more prevalent to this problem than mental disorder or having too many guns or too much media coverage.

I find this very hard to believe - it seems really unlikely that race is a bigger factor than mental illness. In fact, I would bet that for every racially motivated shooting, there are at least 10 where the shooter is "not right in the head".

GOD Shines Forth! · Aug 4, 2019

carlv_52 said:
Do you honestly really think that mass killings are more common in France and Norway than the US?

Honestly?

I've seen conflicting evidence. Though we are awash in information, so much of it is tainted.

With the will of an evil human being, mass murder can be accomplished in a variety of ways. It really doesn't matter what happens elsewhere, our Founders envisioned We the People as armed and capable of self-protection. They didn't care what other countries thought about it and neither do I.

Innocents die from many different legitimate activities--driving, swimming, boating, hiking, etc.--and no one tries, in a panic, to "do something" about those endeavors. The fact that the Left and their politicians immediately start talking gun control after these atypical events ought to give you pause.

wing2000 · Aug 4, 2019

GOD Shines Forth! said:
I've seen conflicting evidence. Though we are awash in information, so much of it is tainted.

Cite it.

Speedwell · Aug 4, 2019

GOD Shines Forth! said:
I've seen conflicting evidence. Though we are awash in information, so much of it is tainted.

With the will of an evil human being, mass murder can be accomplished in a variety of ways.

But the ready availability of firearms makes it easy.

It really doesn't matter what happens elsewhere, our Founders envisioned We the People as armed and capable of self-protection.

And they specifically wanted it to be "well-regulated."

Innocents die from many different legitimate activities--driving, swimming, boating, hiking, etc.--and no one tries, in a panic, to "do something" about those endeavors. The fact that the Left and their politicians immediately start talking gun control after these atypical events ought to give you pause.

How many more people would die from, say, driving, if their was no registration or licencing requirement for owning and operating a motor vehicle?

Messerve · Aug 4, 2019

Speedwell said:
But the ready availability of firearms makes it easy. And they specifically wanted it to be "well-regulated."

How many more people would die from, say, driving, if their was no registration or licencing requirement for owning and operating a motor vehicle?

Honestly I feel like half the people in my area drive without licenses and don't register their vehicles like they're supposed to. I don't know what our accident rate is compared to other areas...

GOD Shines Forth! · Aug 4, 2019

wing2000 said:
Cite it.

Cite the conflicting evidence? You only looked at evidence that agrees with you?

I'm not Alexa, go find your own conflicting evidence. :wave:

S.O.J.I.A. · Aug 4, 2019

expos4ever said:
I find this very hard to believe - it seems really unlikely that race is a bigger factor than mental illness. In fact, I would bet that for every racially motivated shooting, there are at least 10 where the shooter is "not right in the head".

There hasn't been any evidence as to the mental state of these shooters. Mental disorder has simply been the media's fiat explanation. the shooters have put out manifestos about who they have followed and what they believed. I'd agree that people who think this way are sick in the head, but it's more of a social or cultural disorder than a mental one.

GOD Shines Forth! · Aug 4, 2019

Speedwell said:
How many more people would die from, say, driving, if their was no registration or licencing requirement for owning and operating a motor vehicle?

Ignoratio elenchi. My point is the blase acceptance of accidental death among those banal pursuits in themselves, due to the self-interest of the pursuers. Their "compassion" for victims has a limit. Their doorstep.

mark46 · Aug 4, 2019

The primary argument against every piece of legislation is that the particular bill won't cure the problem. That approach is simply unreasonable. There are probably a dozen ideas that are supported the vast majority of voters. Some should enacted into law.

1) background checks
2) elimination of the gun show loophole
3) having all law enforcement agencies be required to share information with the national data base
4) waiting period
5) licenses for owning a gun (or at least for taking a gun off private property)
6) elimination of assault weapons
7) elimination of large magazines

Would all gun violence be eliminated? Of course not! Would the number who die from gun violence be reduced? Probably. Would they be HARM done to society by passing this legislation? I don't think so.

wing2000 · Aug 4, 2019

GOD Shines Forth! said:
Cite the conflicting evidence? You only looked at evidence that agrees with you?

I'm not Alexa, go find your own conflicting evidence.

You made the claim "I've seen conflicting evidence. Though we are awash in information, so much of it is tainted."

To the question:

Do you honestly really think that mass killings are more common in France and Norway than the US?

Quite simple: share your evidence.

usexpat97 · Aug 4, 2019

i will give this much: if you were hoping to gain notoriety by ambushing unsuspecting people and dying in a blaze of glory, you can't so much now. There's too many mass shootings to remember them all, and it's getting reported less.

Two ways this could go: it's possible potential mass shooters just don't fantasize about that anymore, because you just won't be forever remembered as "that guy" anymore. Or...it could go the exact opposite: now, mass shooters want to top the previous record and be remembered as the perpetrator of the worst mass shooting in history. If you kill 9 people, you will barely escape the local news. But if you kill 200--ah, NOW people will know who you are.

mass shootings a slightly different question

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