Basis of salvation, not Jesus, the bible.

1 Corinthians 2:14......a real favorite when non-believers are trying lecture on what the Bible means....

St_Worm2 said:

Hi Charsan, if the Bible is not necessary, why do you think God bothered to have men write it for us then?

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If there was no inspired Bible there still would be Christians.

St_Worm2 said:

That said, there is no church that does a better job of defining what they believe than your church does, if your church is the one that I'm assuming that it is, the RCC (yes?). The RCC seems to have a thing for Scripture, don't you think (since they always make extensive use of it to validate each and every one of their dogmas & doctrines, and beliefs in general for that matter). So again, if what you say is true, then why would the RCC do that?

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Don't know I am not Catholic

St_Worm2 said:

Without the Bible as our regula fidei, people could make up all kinds of heretical things and claim they got them directly from God (well, people do that all the time actually, as I'm certain you already know, but at least the Bible is a constant reminder of what the truth of God really is, and as such it keeps a lid on people's attempts to add to, or subtract from, or to deny the Truth of God).

Would we still have Christians/Christianity if we didn't have the written word of God? Well, that's one thing that I hope that we never have to find out (though such a day could be just around the bend).

--David

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Actually there is a lot of heretical thins made up with a Bible from Calvinism to Evangelicalism. The Bible itself never mentions to go by it alone but that the Church is the place of truth. Don't get me wrong I am glad we have the Bible but it is not necessary for Salvation as evidenced by the people that started their salvation journey when there was no Bible and if there was a day when there was no Bible there still would be Christians.

Michael Collum said:

This was related to your statement about not being able to know anything about it without the bible. This removes the role of the Holy Spirit.

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How can anyone accept what the Bible says (from the Father's spiritual POV) except by the HS, and by the mind of Christ? I know I didn't/couldn't before I became a Christian.

Take note below of St. Paul's description of non-Christians in v14, as well why/how/Who is responsible for altering the non-Christian perspective and understanding of God's word so that we, when we become Christians, can finally begin to understand and accept it from the Author's perspective (in v12, 13, 15 & 16 ).

Actually, it all begins with the Father drawing us & changing us.
The entire Godhead, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit work together in the manner of a team to bring about our salvation. I don't think it's in anyone's interest to look for ways to pit them against each other. Do you?

--David

Kris Jordan said:

Faith in Jesus Christ for what He did for us on the cross when He died in our place and suffered for our sin is necessary for salvation.

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And, of course, the Bible tells us about those things.

Michael Collum said:

I would like to start a discussion regarding doctrines that imply or explicitly say that the bible (and agreeing with a particular interpretation of it) is necessary for salvation.

It is an open discussion so long as it remains within that general area.

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I'm going to say something that will be very controversial because it totters awfully close to violating TOS here.

I'll answer with a question: How much of God's word in the Bible does one have to disbelieve before one believes in a false god, and thus is not truly saved?

I offer up as an example someone who holds to a strictly materialistic, naturalistic science-only view of creation. I'm talking about hard-core evolutionists who also profess to be Christians.

A favorite Bible teacher used to say, "If you have a problem with the first seven words (in Hebrew) in the Bible, then you've got a whole lot more problem than just not believing God created everything."

That's because even Christ quotes from Genesis, which means He takes it literally. But these evolutionists actually carry water for the atheists, being almost indistinguishable from them in dialogue. Is that Christ-like? Is that being indwelt with the Holy Spirit?

And then, here on CF I've seen some absolutely wacky Scripture interpretations, particularly regarding the rapture, end times and the tribulation that it makes me wonder if someone actually believes in the true God of the Bible.

So, yes, I believe there is a point where "agreeing with a particular interpretation" becomes a question of salvation, when that interpretation strays so far from God's word. At what point that is ... I don't know. Only God knows.

Faith in Jesus Christ and in his finish work on the cross.

But what is faith in Jesus Christ? Faith that he will deliver us from sin. If we are still willfully sinning, which I am, what are we putting our faith in Jesus for? Are we hoping that he saved us in our sin or from our sin?

I am not preaching to anyone, for I still have besetting sins that I have not stopped. I will tell myself, "OK, today is the last day I am going to do that." Am I not really putting my trust in Jesus Christ to deliver me?

I don't understand the concept of trusting in Jesus to deliver us from our sin. But that is what I believe the doctrine of salvation: trusting in Jesus to deliver you from sin.

When I got saved I didn't even know what the bible was. I mean I read a little bit of genesis as an atheist but I had NEVER read 99.9% of the bible. That being said the bible is not required for salvation nor is a lot of things that the church teaches. What is required is faith and faith in Christ for salvation and what he did for salvation. It's coming to christ as the rotten sinners we are and saying "Lord I accept you please save me."

Christ not only promised to not turn away a single person but he also said "whatever you ask in my name I will do it. "


No clue what this means for people who abandon the faith though. I believe that once a person is reborn the holy spirit seals and marks them for salvation. But I also believe that the Holy Spirits job is to keep a person in the faith. Ergo those who deny the faith later in life were never born again by Jesus. Just my opinion though...

Michael Collum said:

I would like to start a discussion regarding doctrines that imply or explicitly say that the bible (and agreeing with a particular interpretation of it) is necessary for salvation.

It is an open discussion so long as it remains within that general area.

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Scripture is simply Gods revelation for man kind. The Old Testament is a history book filled with prophetic words about our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth and the path of a peculiar people God chose to deliver those prophetic words. The New Testament is the fulfillment of those prophetic words. So if you never read a single word in scripture you are still saved as the long road to salvation is not as important as the gate in which to enter through that paved road. Entrance through this gate requires LOVE.
Blessings

Acts2:38 said:

They "heard the word". Scripture is God's word. Back in those times, miracles, apostles "knowing in part" and "prophesying in part" was to confirm the word, that Christ was who He said He was. The word doesnt need confirmation anymore, we have scripture to read, understand, and obey.

How are you going to know how to conduct yourself as a Christian if you don't have scripture to show you? Listen to Bob across the street? Hardly. You read scripture.

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I was asking Michael Collum a rhetorical question.

Michael Collum said:

The thing is ... people make up all sorts of heretical things with the bible, so it wouldn't make much of a difference either way.

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2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

If you had the Bible, studied the Bible cover to cover, yet did not place your faith in Christ...there is no Salvation. Jesus is the basis for Salvation.

“You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.“ - John 5:39-40

“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.” - John 3:18

We should also remember that it wasn’t until 500-600 years ago that the Bible was printed for many copies to be distributed. A copy of the Bible was nowhere near as accessible as it is today.

“Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.” - Romans 10:17

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” - John 1:1;14

Michael Collum said:

I would like to start a discussion regarding doctrines that imply or explicitly say that the bible (and agreeing with a particular interpretation of it) is necessary for salvation.

It is an open discussion so long as it remains within that general area.

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Is just any old idea about how one is saved going to lead to genuine salvation? Can a person just make up their own way of salvation? To what do we appeal when someone comes along and says, "I don't need Jesus to get to heaven. I can get there my own way." How do we show them they are mistaken? Is salvation entirely a subjective matter, without mooring in some authoritative, objective standard of truth? Or can we go to the Bible as our fundamental authoritative source for instruction on how it is one is saved? It seems to me that without the Bible, the way of salvation is up for grabs. Without the authoritative, final-word standard of Scripture, anyone can propose any sort of notion about salvation and no one can say them "Nay." At the most, we could only say, "That's not how I would do it."

So, the Bible is necessary to correct knowledge about salvation. This isn't to imply, though, that the Bible has saving power itself. It doesn't. Only Jesus saves. But one could not exercise saving faith in the truth of the Gospel, in the Saviour, if the Bible did not reveal both to us. The Bible, then, seems to me necessary to salvation in much the same way a recipe is necessary to baking a particular sort of cake. The recipe doesn't make the cake, but it is vital to informing one who wants to make the cake how to do so. No analogy, though, is perfect...

Neostarwcc said:

When I got saved I didn't even know what the bible was. I mean I read a little bit of genesis as an atheist but I had NEVER read 99.9% of the bible. That being said the bible is not required for salvation nor is a lot of things that the church teaches. What is required is faith and faith in Christ for salvation and what he did for salvation. It's coming to christ as the rotten sinners we are and saying "Lord I accept you please save me."

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Hi Neostarwcc, aren't you glad that the person(s) who led you to the Lord knew the Bible and what it said, especially since you didn't? How would you have ever heard about Jesus, His love for you and what He did for you if that person or persons hadn't read the Bible and passed what they knew onto you?

I believe it was Billy Graham who used to say that the only Bible most people read is you (meaning the Christian who tells others what it says).

No one led me towards Jesus by opening and using a Bible, but I'm sure glad that they all knew what it said, because the Bible was most definitely in use and a big part of my becoming a Christian, even though the physical book itself was never opened.

--David

Michael Collum said:

I would like to start a discussion regarding doctrines that imply or explicitly say that the bible (and agreeing with a particular interpretation of it) is necessary for salvation.

It is an open discussion so long as it remains within that general area.

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Hello Michael,
This question reminds me of a newcomer to this forum (newer than me, lol) who introduced himself by stating that he was basicly here to help deliver people from an insidious wrong doctrine.
He explained about how countless scores of people have been misled about their salvation, because they had been baptised “In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.” “Tragically”, Jesus name itself was not used in the baptism. It was a rather offensive post, because he also pointed the blame at these “deceived people”, as if God is uncertain of their intention to obey Him and be baptized. He was obviously basing this on the passage at the end of the gospel of Matthew.
This is a perfect example of someone possibly stirring up dissension and wounding the faith of some believers, via legalistic skull-beating.

It’s a strategic and profitable thing to get it right in our minds exactly what (or whom) is necessary for salvation, because it sheds a bright light on these types of wrong doctrines.

So, those who were Christians during the first three and a half centuries after Jesus Christ founded His Church were not saved? His Church had not yet compiled the Bible. It didn't exist, so it would have been pretty confusing if Jesus told them that a non-existent book was necessary for their salvation. Jesus founded one Church, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hear Me". Note His words - "all truth", meaning nothing more was needed than the divinely inspired teaching of His Church. 350 years later, the Pope directed the bishops of that one Church meet together for the purpose of examining the early writings of that Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, in order to discern which of those writings could definitely be considered divinely inspired. After four years of study, they produced a list of 73 texts which God had guided them to include, and bound them into a single book for the first time. Since they spoke Greek, the universal language of educated people at that time, they called the book "Biblios", which means "the Book". The book didn't contain anything the Church had not already taught for more than three centuries. The book is a product of God's Church. His Church is not a product of the book. And His Church would be teaching the fullness of God's truth until the end of time, whether it had decided to produce such a book or not.

In short, I wouldn’t say the Bible is the basis of Salvation. Although the Bible reveals the basis of Salvation, Jesus Christ. There are many people today who have read the Bible, know about Jesus and His teachings, yet do not believe. Are they saved? Certainly not.

God did not come from Scripture, Scripture comes from God. No matter which way you look at it, God the Savior is our only hope for Salvation.