Help with 1 Cor 14:32

Carl Emerson said:

Yes I am hopeful that the traditional structures will be reviewed and modified to suit the challenges of this late hour. The restoration of the prophetic needs to be part of that.

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Well, it does happen in some circles, and it is growing. Unfortunately, sometimes the prophetic order and integrity are lacking or slow to catch up.

Oscarr said:

I think that what Paul is saying that the person who prophesies is in total control what, how and when he does it. He is not under any inner compulsion but uses the gift with total self-control. He is also referring to those who are speaking out loud in tongues in a compulsive manner not considering whether or not the tongue should be interpreted. He is saying that believers are in total control of themselves at all times and so are able to conduct themselves decently and in order.

Therefore the excuse, "the Holy Spirit made me (or forced me) to do it" does not hold water. If there is a spirit of compulsion, it is not the Holy Spirit but could be more like a Kundalini spirit instead. We are seeing on Youtube, many examples of out of control behaviour invading the mainstream Charismatic movement, to the point where many are seeing this behaviour as having a demonic and pagan character instead of a Christian character.

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If I say, I will not mention Him, or speak any more in His Name." there is in my heart as it were a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I am weary with holding it in, and I can not.
Yes there is a burning, a burning to get the words out. With tongues this is not so.

Carl Emerson said:

The church was born on an existing Jewish community and part of that tradition was a fellowship of the prophets in the seasons in history when God was speaking. It is true that in the season prior to Jesus coming this was absent from Jewish life, but as prophesy was restored it was the natural thing to do.

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Well, that's just a theory on what you think the NT church was doing. That's not scriptural or historical evidence.

And I notice that, having gotten the advice on Greek grammar that you originally asked for, you've just completely ignored it.

Carl Emerson said:

Yes I am hopeful that the traditional structures will be reviewed and modified to suit the challenges of this late hour. The restoration of the prophetic needs to be part of that.

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In the first century, the Apostles could not teach at every new branch of the Church. The instructions given was therefore that all could contribute:

1 Corinthians 14
26What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.

To ensure that what was offered was from God and not as result of too much pizza the night before, every word was tested, BY SCRIPTURE:

1 Corinthians 3
11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to berevealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Jeremiah 23
28“The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?” declares the LORD. 29“Is not My word like fire?” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock? 30“Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who steal My words from each other. 31“Behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who use their tongues and declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ 32“Behold, I am against those who have prophesied false dreams,” declares the LORD, “and related them and led My people astray by their falsehoods and reckless boasting; yet I did not send them or command them, nor do they furnish this people the slightest benefit,” declares the LORD.


Don’t forget, Jesus Himself baptised with the Holy Spirit, and with fire. He demolished all the wrong teachings of the Pharisees:

Matthew 3
12"His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Carl Emerson said:

I have been on the forum for over a year and there are various issues that are causing a great divide of opinion - sometimes heated.

One is the interpretation of this verse and the issues around it.

Some see it means each individual prophets spirit is subject to himself. Others say that the spirit of each individual prophet is subject to the other prophets.

29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. 30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Behind this question is one of authority. Who are these prophetic words subject to? the Pastor, the Teachers, or the Prophets. Some say the Pastor as he is the Father figure in the Church. Some say the Teachers as they must determine if the word is biblical. Some say the Prophets as they are collectively gifted to determine the validity of the presented word. Some say the Elders collectively.

Further behind this question is whether or not Prophesy is active at all in this age. Those who believe God no longer speaks to believers tend to hold this view.

So initially I would like those with more than a rudimentary knowledge of Greek grammar to advise on the intended meaning given the grammar and the context of this verse.

Then we could talk about if God is speaking outside of our interaction with Scripture as He did with the early church.

Thank you all for your help.

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many sweep it under the first-century rug so don't care what it means. if you're looking for a better understanding of this word I find after scrutinizing and studying the greek it affirms how the words are translated in most translation so comparing different translations usually does the job.

the verse in question (v32) says

the area of question is "pneumata propheton prophetais" or "spirits of-prophets to-prophets" and you will noticed the strong number for "propheton prophetais" are the same (S4396) but when you look at the words they have slight differences.

Both words are masculine and plural so both can be translated as "prophets" but their differences is the first one is in the genitive case (which is a possessive) and the second one is in the dative case which is indicating where the action is being directed to.

So what's the action? there is only one verb here and it is "hypotassetai" so the "pneumata propheton" or "spirit of prophets" (the genitive links it to the spirit as a possessive so spirit of prophets or prophets' spirit) is "hypotassetai" (verb, the action) to prophets (the individuals identified as prophets where the action is being directed to)

so what does "hypotassetai" mean? the verb is in the present tense, indicative mood (verb that is making a statement) and a passive voice. the passive voice means the subject (spirit of prophets) is receiving the action from the object (prophets). the verb is also in the 3rd person singular. The meaning of the verb is "to place or rank under, to subject, mid. to obey" so the object "submits" to the subject.

so a simple literal translation would be:
and spirits of the prophets submits to prophets

and this is consistent with mainstream translations for example:
so the text is saying the prophets are in control of the spirits of prophets or since the context is of the gifts of the Holy Spirit I would say they are in control of the gift of prophecy. What does this mean? it means the spirit doesn't take over our body and use it as a mouthpiece and we are still in control of ourselves. Where pastors/teachers or leadership is concerned I would say is more about judging if the claimed prophet is false or not. So if they are deemed authentic prophets then their action of prophecy is from the spirit but still under the prophet's control.

DamianWarS said:

many sweep it under the first-century rug so don't care what it means. if you're looking for a better understanding of this word I find after scrutinizing and studying the greek it affirms how the words are translated in most translation so comparing different translations usually does the job.

the verse in question (v32) says

ΚΑI ΠΝΕYΜΑΤΑ ΠΡΟΦΗΤΩN ΠΡΟΦHΤΑΙΣ YΠΟΤAΣΣΕΤΑΙ
1.καὶ 2.πνεύματα 3.προφητῶν 4.προφήταις 5.ὑποτάσσεται
1.kai 2.pneumata 3.propheton 4.prophetais 5.hypotassetai
1.and 2.spirits 3.of-prophets 4.to-prophets 5.are-subject
1.3532 2.4151 3.4396 4.4396 5.5293​

the area of question is "pneumata propheton prophetais" or "spirits of-prophets to-prophets" and you will noticed the strong number for "propheton prophetais" are the same (S4396) but when you look at the words they have slight differences.

Both words are masculine and plural so both can be translated as "prophets" but their differences is the first one is in the genitive case (which is a possessive) and the second one is in the dative case which is indicating where the action is being directed to.

So what's the action? there is only one verb here and it is "hypotassetai" so the "pneumata propheton" or "spirit of prophets" (the genitive links it to the spirit as a possessive so spirit of prophets or prophets' spirit) is "hypotassetai" (verb, the action) to prophets (who are the individuals identified as prophets where the action (hypotassetai) is being directed to.

so what does "hypotassetai" mean? the verb is in the present tense, indicative mood (verb that is making a statement) and a passive voice. the passive voice means the subject (spirit of prophets) is receiving the action from the object (prophets).

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That's exactly right. There's also the fact that verses 31-33 are all reasons following on from the command in verse 30.

DamianWarS said:

the verb is also in the 3rd person singular.

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There's a bit of a trap there: πνεύματα (spirits) is a neuter plural subject, and (rather strangely) neuter plural subjects in Greek take a singular verb (see Wenham's The Elements of New Testament Greek, page 38). So, although the verb here is 3rd person singular in form, it should really be treated as 3rd person plural (not that that really matters).

So: καὶ (and) πνεύματα (spirits) προφητῶν (of prophets) προφήταις (to prophets) ὑποτάσσεται (are subject).

Which, as you point out, is pretty much what most good translations say.

Carl Emerson said:

Radagast, I am gathering opinion and will weigh the responses. I appreciate your offering.

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I can't help but feel that you'd be better off with some good books than with the Internet.

The Continuationist case can, it seems to me, be made far better than you're making it here, and the Cessationist case can also be made far better than anyone here is making it.

If you must rely on the Internet, you could read some of the debates that respected Continuationist and Cessationist pastors have had.

Radagast said:

That's exactly right. There's also the fact that verses 31-33 are all reasons following on from the command in verse 30.



There's a bit of a trap there: πνεύματα (spirits) is a neuter plural subject, and (rather strangely) neuter plural subjects in Greek take a singular verb (see Wenham's The Elements of New Testament Greek, page 38). So, although the verb here is 3rd person singular in form, it should really be treated as 3rd person plural (not that that really matters).

So: καὶ (and) πνεύματα (spirits) προφητῶν (of prophets) προφήταις (to prophets) ὑποτάσσεται (are subject).

Which, as you point out, is pretty much what most good translations say.

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you're right, I missed that "spirit" is in the plural and mistranslated it as "spirit" no doubt from my assumptions that it all comes from one spirit. The word for "spirits" is neuter and it's in the normative case (is the subject) and typical the verb will agree with the gender, case and number of the subject so we expect the verb to also be a plural but in this case the verb is singular but there are special rules for neuter nouns and one of them is when a neuter is the subject the verb is always the third person singular.

so this begs the question why "spirits" (plural) not "spirit" (singular). well I don't know but I suspect is it regarding the plural of the gifts of the spirit and it is being used interchangeably. The gift of the Spirit is the context that opens in chapater 12:1 saying "now about spiritual gifts..." here "spiritual gifts" is one greek word which is πνευματικῶν (pneumatikon) and it just literally says "now about spiritual..." and implies a head noun but doesn't give it. this is an adjective and is in the genitive case so it is a possessive to a noun. so it could be a "spiritual something" or a "something of the spiritual". gifts fits but the word for "gifts" in 12:4 is also not "gifts" in the giving a gift sense it is "charisma" which is that which is given from grace or out of grace and it fits for the what the adjective is describing in v1. so "spiritual charisma" and these are what we know as the gifts of the spirit. This established that spirit (or spiritual) is used alone representing the gifts. So I would think 14:34 is doing something similar where it is describing all the "spiritual" that opened in 12:1.

DamianWarS said:

but there are special rules for neuter nouns and one of them is when a neuter is the subject the verb is always the third person singular

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Exactly.

DamianWarS said:

so this begs the question why "spirits" (plural) not "spirit" (singular)

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Well, it's obviously talking about the spiritual gifts of individual prophets (plural), not about the Holy Spirit (singular).

Carl Emerson said:

but it is an opportunity to put voice to my passion for a more effective Church in these challenging times

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Ah, I see, the question in the OP was rhetorical. But in that case, your cause could perhaps benefit from better arguments.

Carl Emerson said:

although I don't see the Scripture as exhaustive, and demanding that what is not written is errant.

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And if you're arguing for the continuation of infallible prophecy, you've got a really tough job on your hands.

How many infallible modern prophets can you name?

Carl Emerson said:

I have been on the forum for over a year and there are various issues that are causing a great divide of opinion - sometimes heated.

One is the interpretation of this verse and the issues around it.

Some see it means each individual prophets spirit is subject to himself. Others say that the spirit of each individual prophet is subject to the other prophets.

29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. 30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Behind this question is one of authority. Who are these prophetic words subject to? the Pastor, the Teachers, or the Prophets. Some say the Pastor as he is the Father figure in the Church. Some say the Teachers as they must determine if the word is biblical. Some say the Prophets as they are collectively gifted to determine the validity of the presented word. Some say the Elders collectively.

Further behind this question is whether or not Prophesy is active at all in this age. Those who believe God no longer speaks to believers tend to hold this view.

So initially I would like those with more than a rudimentary knowledge of Greek grammar to advise on the intended meaning given the grammar and the context of this verse.

Then we could talk about if God is speaking outside of our interaction with Scripture as He did with the early church.

Thank you all for your help.

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The first thing that must happen is being born again. When Christ visits you as a thief in the night and you go through the process of being changed and blessed with The Holy Spirit, understanding comes. Seek and you shall find is a promise from God The Father. Many are called but few are chosen.

Carl Emerson said:

I have been on the forum for over a year and there are various issues that are causing a great divide of opinion - sometimes heated.

One is the interpretation of this verse and the issues around it.

Some see it means each individual prophets spirit is subject to himself. Others say that the spirit of each individual prophet is subject to the other prophets.

29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. 30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Behind this question is one of authority. Who are these prophetic words subject to? the Pastor, the Teachers, or the Prophets. Some say the Pastor as he is the Father figure in the Church. Some say the Teachers as they must determine if the word is biblical. Some say the Prophets as they are collectively gifted to determine the validity of the presented word. Some say the Elders collectively.

Further behind this question is whether or not Prophesy is active at all in this age. Those who believe God no longer speaks to believers tend to hold this view.

So initially I would like those with more than a rudimentary knowledge of Greek grammar to advise on the intended meaning given the grammar and the context of this verse.

Then we could talk about if God is speaking outside of our interaction with Scripture as He did with the early church.

Thank you all for your help.

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“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16–17 (KJV 1900)

Carl Emerson said:

Exactly, this is why it is critical to resurrect this important gift so I can say him and her...

Mind you there is a distinct difference relating to how prophets are meant to operate in the body, as any sense of infallibility must be coming from the body in unity, and not any one gifted individual.

It is interesting also that Agabus had a civil voice and is mentioned by Josephus for correctly predicting a severe famine during the reign of Tiberius that effected the whole Roman empire. Acts 11:28

The is one area in which the Church is almost totally silent today.

I note also that God called a prophet to proclaim the resurrection of Israel from the dry bones.

I could also raise the issue of 1 Kings 22 being a spiritual battle very much parallel to the state of defeat of modern church.... but I am unsure whether that would contravene the forum rules or not.

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Dan Wallace has written a lot about cessationism and infallible prophets:

The Uneasy Conscience of a Non-Charismatic Evangelical | Bible.org

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/gtj/04-1_059.pdf

Daniel B. Wallace

You might want to read about Organic Churches in the book, Reimagining Church" by Frank Viola.

Radagast said:

Well, it's obviously talking about the spiritual gifts of individual prophets (plural), not about the Holy Spirit (singular).

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a gift is passive and has no role outside of the recipient of the gift. So why bother saying the gift is submissive to the recipient when this is so obvious?

There seems to be an aspect of it connecting back to the gift giver and I see it as saying the Holy Spirit doesn't overtake our body (as may be the case with other prophetic manifestations of the day) . So this tells me the recipient doesn't lose control over themselves and is able to even keep their own style.

With the topic of continuist/cessationist I think this is a good teaching aspect of how the Spirit operates and how the spirit doesn't operate "For God is not a God of disorder but of peace" (v33) peace tells us this is not an overtaking, a losing control or the rational entering into the irrational but is of order and co-operation and harmony with the Spirit.

I once had a word for the Lord that was so intense that I could barely contain myself. I wanted to run down from the balcony, grab the microphone and let everyone know what God was telling me. However, I controlled myself and acted in an orderly manner.

Since I was not in the habit of receiving prophetic messages and our church had no method for dealing with such, I decided to write the message down, explain the context and submit the letter to the pastor's secretary. Eventually, we had a meeting with the head pastor and several junior pastors to discuss the message and its application.

In the end, the pastor decided, "I will believe it when God tells it to me" (directly). And so that was that.

I can assure everyone that the prophets can and should control themselves to that the message is given in an orderly manner, then they should let the others decide.