Loving Jesus enough to obey Him ensures salvation

d taylor said:

A person does not have to confess anything to be saved.

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Really?
Even Rom 10:10 has been done away with?

Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

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You are using an OT event to argue a NT point.

God gives eternal life freely to those who believe, trust, have faith in The Messiah (Jesus) for His gift of His eternal life.

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So it really is a works salvation.
Glad you have made it clear that it is really a "selective works" salvation.

John 6:47 makes it so clear and simple,
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

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If you believe in Jesus, don't you think you should obey Him?
He also said..."He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16)

But like Jesus said because it is so free and easy many will miss the path.

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How hard is it to turn from sin and get baptized?
Too hard for you?

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Narrow because The Messiah is the narrow gate, anything else is the broad way.

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This is definitely at odds with your previous conclusion of "free and easy".

Jeshu said:

1 John 1:8-10
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

Surely it is total nonsense to think that we can keep ourselves free from sin once we have been saved. Every Christian knows that this is an outright lie! The bible is full of exhortations to believers to find life only in God's Spirit, and that life outside of His loving Spirit needs to be repented off, and that this is a major battle in believers lives.

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Don't you realize that 1 John 1 is addressing two very different kinds of walk? Two different kinds of men?
Some walk in darkness-sin and others walk in the light-God.
Those walking in sin cannot say they have no sin, but those who walk in the light have had all their sins washed away by the blood of Christ.
They can say they have no sin...or else they too are walking in darkness.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

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Seems to me there is a choice to be made.
Overcome or perish.
Sadly, some consider overcoming a works salvation.

Phil W said:

Really?
Even Rom 10:10 has been done away with?


You are using an OT event to argue a NT point.


So it really is a works salvation.
Glad you have made it clear that it is really a "selective works" salvation.


If you believe in Jesus, don't you think you should obey Him?
He also said..."He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16)


How hard is it to turn from sin and get baptized?
Too hard for you?


This is definitely at odds with your previous conclusion of "free and easy".

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Romans 10:10 is not a salvation to eternal life verse

The verse or verses i posted, they are from John 12:42,43

John 6:28,29 states the one and only work a person does is to believe.
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

A person who has believed in Jesus for the gift of eternal life should obey Him. But not to receive eternal life, they should obey and try to live a Christ like life for.

Their future judgment at the judgment seat of Christ, so like it has been said, Jesus will not be ashamed of this believer. Their works will be judged for future rewards and they will loose them if found to have been an bad example of a believer.

Mark says if a person does not believe they will be condemned.
he who does not believe will be condemned.

Show me one verse in the Gospel of John that states a person to receive eternal life they must believe and turn from sin.

It is hard for a person to just believe in Jesus for eternal life.
People want to apply some kind of work/action along with belief.

BCsenior said:

Overcoming is not a very impressive item to hang your hat on
because most BACs believe an "overcomer" is described in 1 John 5:5
as being one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God (or some such).
However, John is talking only about overcoming "the world".
When John talks about "the world" he is speaking about the world of non-believers.
Jesus' definition of an "overcomer" is found in Revelation 3:21.

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I thought you were against Eternal Security.
Whose side are you on?

First, I was not providing this verse alone; I also included other similar verses, like endure, be faithful unto death, keep yourself in the love of God, continue in the grace of God, etc (Which all express a similar thing).

Second, Revelation 2:11 says the word "overcometh" and not seeing the second death as in relation to this verse:

"be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10) (Which is the context of "overcometh")

"Faithful" vs. 10 is the context of "overcometh and not being hurt by the second death" vs. 11 (Which is the Lake of Fire - cf. Revelation 21:8).

The New Testament says elsewhere about the word "faithful" as living faithfully by "doing things."

"His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things," (Matthew 25:21).

Also, "believing" is more than just believing in the person of Jesus Christ, we also have to believe in His teachings, as well. For one cannot separate Christ's teachings from the man. Christ's teachings are a part of Him and it is a part of abiding in His love. John 15:10 says if we keep His commandments, we abide in His love. 1 Corinthians 16:22 says if we loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, he is accursed. Jesus says why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not what I say? (Luke 6:46-47). Jesus says if any man does not do what He says he is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 19:26-27).

At the judgment, Jesus rejected that believer who did both wonderful works and who also worked iniquity (or sin) (See: Matthew 7:23). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Conclusion:

So yeah, 'overcometh to the end" is something you can hang your hat on. The Bible clearly teaches that salvation is: "God's grace through faith + Works of Faith." (Note: "God's grace through faith" is the entrance gate and it is how we are ultimately saved. But faith without (eventual) works is dead (James 2:17). 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen to salvation by a: "Belief of the truth" and by the: "Sanctification of the Spirit" (1 Thessalonians 4:3, Galatians 5:16, Galatians 5:19-21, Galatians 5:24, Romans 8:1 (KJV), and Romans 8:13). James says we are justified by works (James 2:24); And James relates to the kind of faith that remains as a "belief alone" like the faith of demons (James 2:19). Why? Grace reigns (rules) through righteousness (i.e. righteous living) (Romans 5:21). God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

Important Note: "Works of Faith" that follow a person being saved by God's grace are the works of God done through you. They are not the kind of works that are "Man Directed Works" that a man would boast in themselves about (Ephesians 2:9). But God directed works (abiding in the Lord and His good ways) is a part of something we are created unto Christ Jesus to do before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 2:10). Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5), and we know that it is God who does he good work through us (Philippians 2:13). For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (i.e. the works of the devil within your life) (1 John 3:8). But it is a cooperation as you know. For this is why we are told to put on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (See Romans 13:14).

MDC said:

You say in the beginning we are justified by faith not by works then go on to explain how our works “maintains” our justification. Completely contradictory and shows that your first sentence is a smokescreen

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The Father cuts off every branch in Me that beareth not fruit.

He that abideth in Me he beareth much fruit.

Anyone who doesn’t abide in Me is cast away to wither then cast into the fire to be burned.

Bible Highlighter said:

Not true. We are told to endure, overcome, be faithful as a part of life. So it's not an automatic auto-pilot kind of thing.

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

We are told in the Bible to....

Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22).
Continue in God's grace (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
Continue in His goodness otherwise we can be cut off (Romans 11:21-22).

So things are not as you say.

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I guess the church has been right since the beginning and it didn’t take 1500 years for someone to finally come along and correct them.

Jeshu said:

1 John 1:8-10
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

Surely it is total nonsense to think that we can keep ourselves free from sin once we have been saved. Every Christian knows that this is an outright lie! The bible is full of exhortations to believers to find life only in God's Spirit, and that life outside of His loving Spirit needs to be repented off, and that this is a major battle in believers lives.

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What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context (of which you quoted, i.e. verse 10). 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned (past tense). 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their future sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You said:

Revelation 2:1-7

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:


And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.


Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.


Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.


But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.


He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

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I just explained the word "overcometh" and Revelation 2 recently in post #127.

nolidad said:

It is not as I say- but things are as the bible says and that is a person can never lose what is not theirs to begin with.

Philippians 1:6 [Full Chapter]
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

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Yet, if you were to keep reading, Philippians 2:12 says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?

You said:

Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

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The Lord never leaving or forsaking you is in context to keeping His commandments.

For if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26) (Note: Keep in mind that, "sin is transgression of the law" - 1 John 3:4).

How can we be saved if there remains no more sacrifice for sin if we willfully sin according to Hebrews 10:26?

Deuteronomy 31 says,

5 "And the LORD shall give them up before your face, that ye may do unto them according unto all the commandments which I have commanded you.
6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee." (Deuteronomy 31:5-6).

Yet, Deuteronomy 31 says in the same chapter,

16 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods."
(Deuteronomy 31:16-18).

You said:

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

ohn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

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Verse 39 is a more popular verse used by the Eternal Security Proponent and it expresses the same theme of thinking by them in verse 37, and verse 44.

John 6:37-40 says,

First, what does Jesus mean by,


Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,


However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,


John 6:39 (KJV) says,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40


John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 says:

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:


And OSAS terminology:


Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?

You said:

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36 King James Version (KJV)
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

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When you read John 3:16, and John 3:36, you also have to read the "condemnation" in John 3:19-20. Verse 20 (John 3:20) says all who do evil hate the light. This is in line with 1 John 3:10 that says:

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

So it is more than just believing in Jesus. One has to do righteousness to be of God, as well (1 John 3:10). For all who do evil hate the light (John 3:20). For he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). This makes sense because Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15); And Paul says if any man does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22).

You said:

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

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The context of the kind of sheep not being plucked out of his hand are those sheep that FOLLOW Him.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:27).
This is why Jesus says why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not what I say? (Luke 6:46). This is why Jesus rejected the believer who did wonderful works in his name and yet they also worked iniquity (or sin) (See Matthew 19:23).

You said:

Romans 10:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

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Justification is not in conflict with Sanctification. They are both works of God done through our lives if we cooperate with the Lord by the good work He wants to do through us.

While grace abounds (Romans 5:20), grace also reigns (rules) by righteousness (righteous living) (Romans 5:21) (cf. 1 John 3:7).

For God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). God's grace does not teach us to turn His grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

"For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 1:4) (NIV).

The purpose Jesus died was so that He could sanctify and wash us with the water of the Word (Scripture) so that He may present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:25-27). Why else would be told by Paul to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God? (See 2 Corinthians 7:1). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). (Note: Please keep in mind that in this instance, I am referring to 2 Corinthians 7:1 in regards to "grievous sin" (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) and not "Sinless Perfectionism" which deals with faults of character and minor transgressions that are not a salvation issue).

You said:

Now how about us needing to be overcomers?

Romans 8:37
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

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I just explained the word "overcometh" and Revelation 2 recently in post #127.
But the list of things that cannot separate you from God (in Romans 8:38-39) are external things only. For you will notice that two things are not on that list.

#1. You.
#2. Your sin.

Romans 8:13 says that if you live after the flesh (sin), you will die (die spiritually), and if you put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) via the Holy Spirit, you will live (live spiritually or have eternal life).

You said:

Almost without exception the passages you list are either about surviving the end times (the 70th week of Daniel and not taking the mark), or for the purpose of rewards. They are not soteriological.

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So a believer can worship the beast and still be saved? Sorry, if that is what you are implying, that is not biblical. Those who worship the beast in the future are said to have never had their names in the book of life since the foundation of the world (See Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8).


Old Source Link Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/
(Note: Website no longer active)

BCsenior said:

“And we know that God causes everything to work together
for the good of those who love God and are called
according to his purpose for them.” (Romans 8:28)
These were predestined, called, justified, and glorified (8:29-30).

Those who truly love God obey Him by resisting temptations to sin!

“God blesses those who patiently endure testing and temptation.
Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God
has promised to those who love Him.” (James 1:12)
Believers who endure temptation:
● love God
● chose to be obedient to Jesus (see below)
● will receive the crown of (eternal) life

“Temptation comes from our own desires,
which entice us and drag us away.
These desires give birth to sinful actions.
And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.
So, don’t be misled, my dear brothers and sisters.” (James 1:14-16)
Believers who do NOT endure temptation:
● will fall into habitual sin
● will receive spiritual (eternal) death …
UNLESS they sincerely repent (stop their habitual sinning).

Those who really love Jesus obey Him
“Those who accept My commandments and obey them
are the ones who love Me.” (John 14:21)
“All who love Me will do what I say.” (John 14:23)
“Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me.” (John 14:24)
“When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love” (John 15:10)
“You are my friends, if you do what I command.” (John 15:14)
Who gets to heaven who does not love Jesus, who is not His friend,
and who does not obey His commandments?

Slaves of sin -- OR -- slaves of obedience
“… if you present yourselves to anyone as as obedient slaves,
you are slaves of the one whom you obey,
either (slaves) of sin which leads to (eternal) death, OR
(slaves) of obedience leading too righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)

“… anyone who obeys my teachings will never die!” (John 8:51)

“if you want to receive eternal life,
keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:17)

“So, you must live as God’s obedient children.” (1 Peter 1:14)

“Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments
have life with God. But there is NO (eternal) life in those
who do not keep His commandments.”
(from “The Shepherd of Hermas”, which was quoted as Scripture by early
Christian leaders such as Irenaeus, Origen, and Clement of Alexandria)

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What do you posit those “Commands” are?

BCsenior said:

There are many Jesus' commands in the 4 gospels.
However, the important thing here is the condition of a believer's heart.
IMO, the acceptable heart condition is "a humble and contrite heart"
where the believer loves Jesus enough to try his hardest to obey Him.
And he follows the advice and commands of the epistle writers as well.

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What happens when “we try”?

BCsenior said:

Trying to the best of our individual ability is VERY impressive indeed, is it not?
And a very important part of this trying to be holy, etc. is sincere repentance of sin.
Which means fleeing from that particular sin.

Are you aware that ...
The #1 reason the Word came to earth and died
was to set believers free from their slavery of sin,
which enables them to NOT have to sin!
True believers do NOT have to sin ... they are FREE.

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What does Hebrews 2:14 and 1 Corinthians 15:54-56 suggest about Jesus freeing us from slavery?

BCsenior said:

You provided quite an exposition of parts of 1 John.
Now, let's blow some peoples' minds with this ...

“Little children, let no one deceive you.
He who practices righteousness is righteous,
just as He is righteous … In this the children of God
and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does NOT practice righteousness is NOT of God,
NOR is he who does NOT love his brothers and sisters.”
(1 John 3:7-10, NLT)

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I did not quote an exposition, it was my own work that I had written on 1 John 1:8 (Which is archived in my personal documents). I have also stated already 1 John 3:10 several times to others here already, as well.

But thanks again re-quoting the verse in the thread (i.e. 1 John 3:10). OSAS types or Belief Alone types or Sin and Still Be Saved types need to see this quoted to them more often (So that it hopefully will sink into their thinking).

May God bless you this fine day.

BCsenior said:

A most excellent post ... thank you!

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Your most welcome.

You said:

Why do you think I have abandoned being against eternal security
because I use Revelation 3:21 as a definition of who an overcomer is?

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My question was in love but it was a little sarcastic to make you see where I am coming from. Of course I do not believe you abandoned being against Eternal Security. My point is: Why give ammunition to our opponents? It makes it sound like your disagreeing with me on "overcometh" appears like you are trying to defend their position by saying that overcometh relates to a belief alone. Why show your cards? Give your best argument for Eternal Security and if there is any verse or passage that seems to be in favor of Eternal Security, it should not be mentioned unless we have a good explanation for it. At least that is how I would do things, my friend. For we are here to show them the truth of the whole counsel of God's Word and not just a select few verses taken out of context. I believe if we do not know a certain thing, we should be silent among those who are against us on a particular part of Scripture (if that verse or passage appears to be against a truth in Scripture we trying to show them). But that is just me. If you do not agree, I respect that (even if I may not agree).

Please keep in mind that I have yet to encounter a supposed Eternal Security verse or passage that I could not explain. For I have no trouble in demolishing these beliefs by using the context and or other cross references in the Bible. For me: Destroying "Belief Alone-ism" or a "Sin and Still Be Saved" type belief is generally child's play for me. It is all to easy too refute such a belief by looking at the surrounding verses and or other parts of the Bible.

You said:

There are many NT verses which describe how to be saved.
And there are many NT verses which warn of losing salvation.

I just happen to have RECONCILED them all into one simple understanding.
Have you?

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Yes, I have reconciled the verses before;
This is why I wholeheartedly believe we are saved by: "God's grace through faith + Works of faith."

Many Christians today do not realize that Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

The best video that helped me to understand this truth (a while back) was this one:


Side Note 1:

Please keep in mind that it is also holiness or holy living that is the objective of "works of faith." For without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). For Jesus rejected those believers who did wonderful works in his name because they also worked iniquity (i.e. sin), too (See Matthew 7:23).

Side Note 2:

Also keep in mind that there are some Trinitarian Sola Scriptura Conditional Salvationists who believe that we are saved by works (after we are saved by God's grace) but they believe that you cannot be separated by God if you were to die in one unconfessed grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.). One such believer I ran into who believes this way is "David Servant." I liked his videos (because he taught Grace + Works of Faith) until I found out by Evangelical Outreach that he taught that he taught that you can commit one grievous sin and die in that sin, and still be saved. Of course, this is a wrong way of thinking in regards to God's grace and sin. So the narrow way is truly more narrow than we think sometimes.