The Water Gospel of the Campbellites

ebedmelech said:

Indeed. We shouldn't minimize or disregard water baptism. It is the first act of obedience after salvation. It should be done.

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Not so...

Baptized into Christ is the saving baptism. Johns Old Testament water baptism was part of the old covenant John baptized (past tense) with water but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

The early Jewish believers lingered in the old covenant for a while still going to the temple, still sacrificing animals still keeping the customs and law of Moses all through the book of Acts, read Acts 2, 15, and especially Acts 21. But the Gentiles (and the Jews) did not need to add any work of righteousness or of the law or old covenant to be saved. Paul said that Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel showing that water baptism was not part of the gospel for salvation.

Consider these verses

1 Corinthians 1:17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”

And then to the same Corinthians he defined what the gospel was here

1 Corinthians 15:1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”

Notice that nothing was added to the gospel that saves or should be added. No water baptism, no mosaic law, no circumcision, no Lords supper, no works of righteousness etc.

And Paul also defined to the Corinthians what the “one baptism” was here

1 Corinthians 12:13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

This baptism “into Christ” or “into Jesus Christ” is saving.

Galatians 3:27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”
Notice this is “into Christ” not into water. No man or outward water can immerse us into Christ. Christ dwells in our hearts by faith.

Peter also defines the “saving baptism” and says,

1 Peter 3:21. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”

Notice here that the saving baptism is an inward work and a clean conscience or good conscience is part of this. It is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh or an outward washing with water.

The conscience cannot be clean or good or perfect by outward ordinances such as diverse washings (or baptismos in Greek) as we read,

Hebrews 9:9. Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;10. Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation...14. How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?”

Of the Kingdom said:

The portion of my statement which is what I think you are commenting on:

"The majority of Christians do believe that water baptism is essential to salvation"

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That's right. It was just a correction, not a big disagreement.

It is my understanding that those who believe in "traditional, sacramental baptism" generally believe regeneration normally occurs at the time of (water) baptism, although most believe there are exceptions, for example "baptism of desire". When I said "essential" it was perhaps misleading; I didn't mean to imply there are no exceptions.

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That is true, but it would not be correct to say "baptism is essential to salvation...." That is what was written in the above post, however I am glad to have your clarification in this follow-up.

BABerean2 said:

Does the most important thing in the New Testament about the word "baptism" have anything to do with water?

See Luke 3:16, and Acts 11:15-17, and Romans 8:9, and 1 Corinthians 3:16, and 1 John 2:27, for the answer.

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No, water is alluding to the cleansing by the Spirit the same way fire is in: Lu 3:16 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

I believe there is a spirit baptism that deals with our salvation.

I currently believe water baptism is an act done under the commands of the New Covenant, but it is not done as a part of Sanctification or salvation. It is merely a symbolic act.

However, I am open to being convinced that water baptism was an Old Covenant ordinance. I would need to go over every verse and passage that deals with baptism and pray about it more. For I can kind of see how the baptism that the Lord taught was spirit baptism, and his disciples were initially confused on the matter (Which is not the first time they were confused about the Lord's teachings).

Greetings again BABerean2,

BABerean2 said:

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

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But Jesus by means of his disciples did baptise with water:
John 4:1–3 (KJV): 1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) 3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

Consider how the Apostle Peter understood Luke 3:16, because he quotes what John the Baptist said:
Acts 11:12–18 (KJV) 12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man’s house: 13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Did Peter then say, Well they have received the Holy Spirit, thus there is no need for them to be baptised with water? No, consider what Peter stated:
Acts 10:44–48 (KJV): 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Spirit as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
(Was Paul confused in the verse above?)

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This is stated in the context of party factions. Paul, most probably mainly through those who accompanied him did baptise with water.
Acts 16:15 (KJV): And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Acts 16:33 (KJV): And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Acts 18:8 (KJV): And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Acts 19:4–6 (KJV): 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

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Yes, the various verse above show that after, not before, they believed the Gospel message, they received the Gift of the Holy Spirit, and they spake in tongues and glorified God. Acts 19:4-6 clearly shows the normal sequence, they believed the Gospel preached, they were baptised in water and then the Apostle Paul laid his hands upon them and they received the Holy Spirit gifts. As Ephesians 1:13 states the Holy Spirit of promise was a Divine seal, an evidence that God had accepted them.

Kind regards
Trevor

TrevorL said:

Greetings again BABerean2, But Jesus by means of his disciples did baptise with water:
John 4:1–3 (KJV): 1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) 3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

Consider how the Apostle Peter understood Luke 3:16, because he quotes what John the Baptist said:
Acts 11:12–18 (KJV) 12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man’s house: 13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Did Peter then say, Well they have received the Holy Spirit, thus there is no need for them to be baptised with water? No, consider what Peter stated:
Acts 10:44–48 (KJV): 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Spirit as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
This is stated in the context of party factions. Paul, most probably mainly through those who accompanied him did baptise with water.
Acts 16:15 (KJV): And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Acts 16:33 (KJV): And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Acts 18:8 (KJV): And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Acts 19:4–6 (KJV): 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Yes, the various verse above show that after, not before, they believed the Gospel message, they received the Gift of the Holy Spirit, and they spake in tongues and glorified God. Acts 19:4-6 clearly shows the normal sequence, they believed the Gospel preached, they were baptised in water and then the Apostle Paul laid his hands upon them and they received the Holy Spirit gifts. As Ephesians 1:13 states the Holy Spirit of promise was a Divine seal, an evidence that God had accepted them.

Kind regards
Trevor

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I don't think anyone is saying there is no need to be baptized, rather it is a sign that salvation has taken place, a sign of submission and obedience. I know of no single act of obedience that can bring about salvation, rather it is something that happens Spiritually between God and man.

misput said:

No, water is alluding to the cleansing by the Spirit the same way fire is in: Lu 3:16 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

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All manner of things that we encounter in Scripture include an allusion to something spiritual, but that doesn't mean that the literal, physical properties are meaningless. Baptism washes, yes, but baptism also requires actual water (if we are to keep with the plain instructions of the Bible).

Any suggestion that it is ALL metaphysical or transcendent and nothing material needs to be involved is mistaken. In the Lords Supper, Christ used actual bread and wine; in Baptism he actually made himself the model at the hands of his cousin John, and those are only two examples.

Greetings misput,

misput said:

I don't think anyone is saying there is no need to be baptized, rather it is a sign that salvation has taken place, a sign of submission and obedience. I know of no single act of obedience that can bring about salvation, rather it is something that happens Spiritually between God and man.

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Matthew 28:19-20 (KJV): 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mark 16:15-16 KJV: 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Justification is by faith, a faith that motivates to be baptised Romans 6:1-8 and live the crucified / resurrected life Galatians 2:20. Baptism is the first step of faith. A dead faith will die.

Kind regards
Trevor

misput said:

I don't think anyone is saying there is no need to be baptized, rather it is a sign that salvation has taken place, a sign of submission and obedience.

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That would be the belief of the Baptist churches and their offshoots, which together constitute about 15% of the world Christian population.

The issue here (as per Romans 6:1-8) may need to be addressed also to the rest of Christendom.

Albion said:

That would be the belief of the Baptist churches and their offshoots, which together constitute about 15% of the world Christian population.

The issue here (as per Romans 6:1-8) may need to be addressed also to the rest of Christendom.

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Baptist and the rest of Christendom has no real significance to me. Being a Christian is an individual matter.

misput said:

Baptist and the rest of Christendom has no real significance to me. Being a Christian is an individual matter.

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Well of course it does have a significance to you, but in any case my point was only that the whole of the argument here seems to have been pegged to the POV of a rather small segment of Christianity. This is okay, but it means that the issue isn't being discussed very thoroughly.

Albion said:

That would be the belief of the Baptist churches and their offshoots, which together constitute about 15% of the world Christian population.

The issue here (as per Romans 6:1-8) may need to be addressed also to the rest of Christendom.

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Romans 6:1-8 is simply saying baptism is a likeness of Christ death, burial and resurrection, not the point of salvation or that it is mandatory for salvation.

BABerean2 said:

If you were correct, the thief on the cross at Calvary had no faith.

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What makes you think that Jesus could not accept the thief if he chose to AND ALSO make some provision for all the other humans who do not have the opportunity of confessing their faith to Christ, face to face, at the time of his sacrifice for sin??

misput said:

Romans 6:1-8 is simply saying baptism is a likeness of Christ death, burial and resurrection, not the point of salvation or that it is mandatory for salvation.

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The point there was that Baptism is effectual, not merely a gesture after the fact (as it has been represented in a number of posts on this thread).

Albion said:

The point there was that Baptism is effectual, not merely a gesture after the fact (as it has been represented in a number of posts on this thread).

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Sure, it is effectual as a sign of belief and and I would never use the words merely a gesture to describe it.
I think it is an important command to obey, just like all of His commands. To refuse to do so would raise a red flag.

misput said:

Sure, it is effectual as a sign of belief....

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then it would not be effectual but only a sign.

and I would never use the words merely a gesture to describe it.

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well, in one way or another, that idea has been voiced repeatedly on this thread. I did not mean to single you out for anything in particular, but as I said before, the thread has been dominated by one POV concerning these things, and it is very much a minority POV among Christians.

misput said:

I don't think anyone is saying there is no need to be baptized, rather it is a sign that salvation has taken place, a sign of submission and obedience. I know of no single act of obedience that can bring about salvation, rather it is something that happens Spiritually between God and man.

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I am actually saying that there is no need for water baptism now.

The one baptism that saves us into Christ by the Spirit. Water baptism was among the “diverse washings” of the Old Testament and John was in the Old Testament. The early Jewish believers were still steeped in the law and old covenant for a long time it was fading away ready to vanish but they still kept going to the temple sacrificing animals and zealots if the law . I am speaking about Christian Jewish believers here for the most part.

The Gentiles did not have to do the mosaic law nor did the Jews anymore. But the Jews were in a time of transition from the old to the new. We see this recorded in scripture. And in Acts they were still coming out of the old. Johns water baptism was very close to them so this lingered for a long tome as well.

Part of the problem is that when believers today read Acts they seem to say “well, if they did something in Acts we should also”. But if they follow that logic the Gentiles and Jews today should sacrifice animals which the Jewish Christians did still (Acts 21), circumcise Jewish converts (Acts 16) keep the whole law and be zealous of it and the customs and traditions of the Jews(Acts 21), and many other Aspects of the law and old covenant.

Jesus told the Jewish disciples before his death that he had many things to say and to judge of them but they were not able to bear it then and when the Holy Ghost would come they would be guided to all truth.

Peter was still following the old covenant in Acts 10 and the Jewish Halakah law or customs and traditions of the Jews. But what is interesting is that he needed a vision and revelation to go to the Gentiles. Even though Jesus told them in Matthew to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature . He also questioned whether the Gentiles should be baptized. He was still following Johns water baptism of the old covenant as we read in chapter 11 when he remembers the event. He was reminded that Jesus said, John baptized with water (past tense) but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Jesus corrected him there.
it would make no sense to try and bring the Gentiles under the law and old covenant only to bring them out of it later when the old covenant had faded away and vanished.

This event showed a change in things with the Gentiles. They were already saved filled with the Spirit before any Old Testament ritual could be done.

Baptism in water was specifically for Israel as we read in scripture.

And when Peter said in Acts 2:38 to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. That is also correct but a spiritual reality. To be immersed into Christ is into his name or character and life and power. As many as have been baptized into Christ have put in Christ. Christ dwells in our hearts by faith.

LoveofTruth said:

I am actually saying that there is no need for water baptism now.

The one baptism that saves us into Christ by the Spirit. Water baptism was among the “diverse washings” of the Old Testament and John was in the Old Testament. The early Jewish believers were still steeped in the law and old covenant for a long time it was fading away ready to vanish but they still kept going to the temple sacrificing animals and zealots if the law . I am speaking about Christian Jewish believers here for the most part.

The Gentiles did not have to do the mosaic law nor did the Jews anymore. But the Jews were in a time of transition from the old to the new. We see this recorded in scripture. And in Acts they were still coming out of the old. Johns water baptism was very close to them so this lingered for a long tome as well.

Part of the problem is that when believers today read Acts they seem to say “well, if they did something in Acts we should also”. But if they follow that logic the Gentiles and Jews today should sacrifice animals which the Jewish Christians did still (Acts 21), circumcise Jewish converts (Acts 16) keep the whole law and be zealous of it and the customs and traditions of the Jews(Acts 21), and many other Aspects of the law and old covenant.

Jesus told the Jewish disciples before his death that he had many things to say and to judge of them but they were not able to bear it then and when the Holy Ghost would come they would be guided to all truth.

Peter was still following the old covenant in Acts 10 and the Jewish Halakah law or customs and traditions of the Jews. But what is interesting is that he needed a vision and revelation to go to the Gentiles. Even though Jesus told them in Matthew to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature . He also questioned whether the Gentiles should be baptized. He was still following Johns water baptism of the old covenant as we read in chapter 11 when he remembers the event. He was reminded that Jesus said, John baptized with water (past tense) but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Jesus corrected him there.
it would make no sense to try and bring the Gentiles under the law and old covenant only to bring them out of it later when the old covenant had faded away and vanished.

This event showed a change in things with the Gentiles. They were already saved filled with the Spirit before any Old Testament ritual could be done.

Baptism in water was specifically for Israel as we read in scripture.

And when Peter said in Acts 2:38 to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. That is also correct but a spiritual reality. To be immersed into Christ is into his name or character and life and power. As many as have been baptized into Christ have put in Christ. Christ dwells in our hearts by faith.

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I warming up to this idea more. Before I could not see it. I need to look at all the verses and do an intense study. Thank you for speaking here, brother.

Hope you are doing well.

Side Note:

This is Jason0047 ~ BTW.