Prove me wrong: modesty/skin exposure

A_Thinker said:

It was early on the morning ... and no women are recorded as being in the area ...

Click to expand...

Fishing naked was common practice at the time. It would not have been unusual to fish naked in sight of women.

A_Thinker said:

Secular law is not based upon God's Law.

It is based (in this country) upon the will of the people.

If NYC is cool with it ... so be it ...

Click to expand...

You were the one who asked where secular topless laws are changing. I provided an answer.

Sam91 said:

If my breasts are exposed the top half of me is naked. In UK female changing rooms, most women turn away and try to put bras on without exposing themselves. There will only be 1 in a group, or less, who do not follow this rule. Also, we women avert our eyes too from that display.

Maybe in other societies women act differently with each other, but whether they do or not being topless is nudity to me and many others.

Click to expand...

And as I noted earlier my girlfriend would disagree with you. She sunbathes on topless beaches in Europe and the Caribbean when we visit such places and does not have an issue with it. In the US at least I think at least the younger generation doesn’t have much of a problem with going topless.

Kenny'sID said:

Except it's not just one missionary. Actually I'm comfortable with stating the vast majority feel just as I do, it's a sin for women to run around topless in public.

Click to expand...

The vast majority of missionaries? Interesting, because we had a senior pastor who recently passed away who served on Africa as a missionary many years ago, and he believed that certain aspects of their culture, including going topless, were better off before the Europeans arrived.

Archivist said:

You were the one who asked where secular topless laws are changing. I provided an answer.

Click to expand...

And I thank you for it ...

Archivist said:

And as I noted earlier my girlfriend would disagree with you. She sunbathes on topless beaches in Europe and the Caribbean when we visit such places and does not have an issue with it. In the US at least I think at least the younger generation doesn’t have much of a problem with going topless.

Click to expand...

Just because she feels safe and that it is okay it does not mean that it is. You must also remember context, she is sunbathing on a beach where others are possibky doing it too.

Never Send Nude Selfies: Seven Reasons

From drug addict to daughter of the King - Premier Christianity This woman feels convicted of her past earning money for being a topless model. If those pictures had not been of her topless there would be no reason for her to feel shame. Thankfully, she understands that she is forgiven.

So now it's important as to what's appropriate and what isn't?

Archivist said:

Fishing naked was common practice at the time. It would not have been unusual to fish naked in sight of women.

Click to expand...

Jewish culture appears to disagree ...

From ... Modesty (Tzniut) | My Jewish Learning

Modesty is the foundation of Jewish values and is one of the fundamental underpinnings of the Jewish family. It is popularly thought to apply primarily to women, but it is a desirable quality in men as well. Although the term is generally used for relations between men and women, it is meant to apply to people in all situations.

Tzniut means modesty, simplicity, a touch of bashfulness, and reserve. But perhaps above these, it signifies privacy. It is the hallmark of Jewish marriage, and the rabbis refer to it as the specific quality to look for in the ideal mate.

The principle of tzniut rejects all nudity, not only in public, but also before family members at home. (Thus one must not pray or recite the Shema prayer while one is naked or standing in the presence of a naked person.) The rejection of nudity recalls Adam and Eve who, after committing the first sin, realized they were naked and instinctively felt ashamed and hid (Genesis 2:25).

A_Thinker said:

Jewish culture appears to disagree ...

From ... Modesty (Tzniut) | My Jewish Learning

Modesty is the foundation of Jewish values and is one of the fundamental underpinnings of the Jewish family. It is popularly thought to apply primarily to women, but it is a desirable quality in men as well. Although the term is generally used for relations between men and women, it is meant to apply to people in all situations.

Tzniut means modesty, simplicity, a touch of bashfulness, and reserve. But perhaps above these, it signifies privacy. It is the hallmark of Jewish marriage, and the rabbis refer to it as the specific quality to look for in the ideal mate.

The principle of tzniut rejects all nudity, not only in public, but also before family members at home. (Thus one must not pray or recite the Shema prayer while one is naked or standing in the presence of a naked person.) The rejection of nudity recalls Adam and Eve who, after committing the first sin, realized they were naked and instinctively felt ashamed and hid (Genesis 2:25).

Click to expand...

This is dealing with modern Judaism, not 2000 years ago.

blackhole said:

Shame is a social construct more than a moral one. Moral failures produce guilt, not shame.

We feel shame over things that are amoral, such as blushing, which due to the shame it causes: leads to more blushing.

I'm sure she felt ashamed, because her society shamed her for it. That doesn't mean the society was in the moral right for doing so.

Click to expand...

If you read the article you would see that her Christian community supported her. As a social science student I would agree with you about 'social constructs.' However, as a Christian I would tell you the Bible shows us how to behave and what to avoid and the Bible tells us categorically that to nude in public is shameful via it's many references to nakedness.

We need to give an account for our idle words (Matthew 12:36) to Him who is Holy and I don't think I could justify your opinion to Him. In Matthew's gospel it hits quite hard when it says "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." Matthew 18:6 I feel that in itself is a deterrent for taking up the cause to encourage the societal movement at large to legalise feminine public nudity.


I will also leave people with these:

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. ... I have seen what is good called evil and what is evil called good.

Ezekiel 12 because it shows how much the Lird detested the false prophets miskeading His people.

Ezekiel 16 because it likens Isreal to an adulteress and is graphic in the metaphorical use of nakedness as punishment.

Sam91 said:

Just because she feels safe and that it is okay it does not mean that it is. You must also remember context, she is sunbathing on a beach where others are possibky doing it too.

Never Send Nude Selfies: Seven Reasons

From drug addict to daughter of the King - Premier Christianity This woman feels convicted of her past earning money for being a topless model. If those pictures had not been of her topless there would be no reason for her to feel shame. Thankfully, she understands that she is forgiven.

Click to expand...

I said topless beaches so, yes, others are topless.

Sam91 said:

If you read the article you would see that her Christian community supported her. As a social science student I would agree with you about 'social constructs.' However, as a Christian I would tell you the Bible shows us how to behave and what to avoid and the Bible tells us categorically that to nude in public is shameful via it's many references to nakedness.

We need to give an account for our idle words to Him who is Holy and I don't think I could justify your opinion to Him. In Matthew's gospel it hits quite hard when it says "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." Matthew 18:6 I feel that in itself is a deterrent for taking up the cause to encourage the societal movement at large to legalise feminine public nudity.

Click to expand...

Is a man nude when he is topless, if not why would a topless woman be considered nude?

Archivist said:

Is a man nude when he is topless, if not why would a topless woman be considered nude?

Click to expand...

I have never found a man's chest attractive despite your assertions. Arms, yes, but never a chest. However, I have trained myself not to look at arms and think like that. One ought to love their brother and objectifying them by sexualising part of their body is not acting in love. It is willfull sin to continue to do it.

I do not care so much about the male being naked argument but men are not allowed to be topless in shops etc, or if they are I'm unaware of it. It looks trashy.

I asserted earlier that I have not seen a Christian male topless except once in a swimming pool. Just because the secular world deems male toplessness as acceptable does not mean that Christian's should advocate the same for women.

blackhole said:

I completely agree that nudity in public is shameful, Genesis calls it as such.

1) Shame isn't to be conflated with sin.
2) Toplessness isn't to be conflated with nudity.

Click to expand...

1)Shame comes from an awareness of inadequacy, sometimes from knowledge of sin.
2) In your opinion. Mine differs.

Archivist said:

This is dealing with modern Judaism, not 2000 years ago.

Click to expand...

So you think that the Jews have become more modest in modern society ?

Do you have any documentation for your view ?

blackhole said:

In a study by Wildman, R. W., and Wildman R., W., II (1976), both men and women were shown pictures of well-formed nude members of the opposite sex. The researchers asked the participants to rate how sexually stimulating these parts were: buttocks, genitals, legs, and busts.

The weighted scores from male participants were: bust (103), buttocks (94), legs (73), and genitals (70).

The weighted scores from female participants were: chest (148), legs (111), buttocks (103), penis (103).​

Click to expand...

In that case men should cover up to help women control their urge to sin otherwise you have double standards. The loving act is to do so.

On a side note: Did you even have time to read the two Ezekiel chapters? It's just you responded quickly and it might be helpful to read those.