kneeling?

AMM

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Hi everyone! Can someone refresh my mind on the rules regarding kneeling? Are we forbidden to kneel on Sundays only and the paschal season, or is it also Saturdays and Feast Days? Or does this vary by jurisdiction? (I think the Western Rite kneels even on Sundays)

and do these apply only to liturgical worship, or are we forbidden from kneeling in our private prayers at these same times?
 

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My understanding has always been that normally we do not kneel on Sundays - these are Resurrection days and as kneeling is normally regarded as penitential we cannot kneel on Sundays as that's when we rejoice at the Resurrection of Christ.

From this we can also see why we do not kneel between Pascha and Pentecost - as this is a joyful time for us.

Kneeling starts again with the 'kneeling prayers' during the vespers at Pentecost
 
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All4Christ

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Hi everyone! Can someone refresh my mind on the rules regarding kneeling? Are we forbidden to kneel on Sundays only and the paschal season, or is it also Saturdays and Feast Days? Or does this vary by jurisdiction? (I think the Western Rite kneels even on Sundays)

and do these apply only to liturgical worship, or are we forbidden from kneeling in our private prayers at these same times?
I think it is Sundays, the time between Pascha and Pentecost, and feast days of our Lord. I also think it technically is supposed to be in both liturgical and personal prayer.

You will find various practices on this though. Many Greek Churches will kneel on Sundays except between Pascha and Pentecost. Russian, Slavic and OCA churches typically do not. I’m not sure about Antiochian or any of the others. From what I understand, the churches that do kneel on Sundays do so due to not having many weekday liturgies to show the penitential attitude of liturgies outside of those on Sundays. Others can probably explain that better than I can.

From St Basil the Great
We stand up when praying on the first of the week, though not all of us know the reason. For it is not only that it serves to remind us that when we have risen from the dead together with Christ we ought to seek the things above, in the day of resurrection of the grace given us, by standing at prayer, but that it also seems to serve in a way as a picture of the expected age. Wherefore, being also the starting point of days, though not the first with Moses, yet it has been called the first. For it says: ‘The evening and the morning were the first day’ (Gen. 1:5), on the ground that it returns again and again. The eighth, therefore, is also the first, especially as respects that really first and true eighth day, which the Psalmist too has mentioned in some of the superscriptions of his psalms, serving to exhibit the state which is to succeed this period of time, the unceasing day, the day without a night that follows, the day without successor, the never-ending and unaging age. Of necessity, therefore, the Church teaches her children to fulfill their obligations to pray therein while standing up, in order by constantly reminding them of the deathless life to prevent them from neglecting the provisions for the journey thither. And every Pentecost is a reminder of the expected resurrection in the age to come. For that one first day, being multiplied seven times over, constitutes the seven weeks of the holy Pentecost. For by starting from the first day of the week, one arrives on the same day… The laws of the Church have taught us to prefer the upright posture at prayer, thus transporting our mind, so to speak, as a result of a vivid and clear suggestions, from the present age to the things come in the future. And during each kneeling and standing up again we are in fact showing by our actions that is was through sin that we fell to earth, and that through the kindness of the One Who created us we have been called back to Heaven…" (Canon XCI of St. Basil the Great)
 
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Although we're not supposed to kneel on Sunday liturgies, the common practice is to kneel, at least in Greek American churches, on Sundays other than during the Paschal season. It is an adaptation that due to light attendance for weekday liturgies, when we normally kneel, that it has been moved to Sundays.

Edited to include - "due to light attendance"
 
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All4Christ

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<snip>...the common practice is to kneel, at least in Greek American churches, on Sundays other than during the Paschal season...<snip>
That’s common practice in Greek American churches but not in all Orthodox Churches in the United States. It depends on the jurisdiction. (Just clarifying for thoroughness). Thanks for the explanation!
 
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Hi everyone! Can someone refresh my mind on the rules regarding kneeling? Are we forbidden to kneel on Sundays only and the paschal season, or is it also Saturdays and Feast Days? Or does this vary by jurisdiction? (I think the Western Rite kneels even on Sundays)

and do these apply only to liturgical worship, or are we forbidden from kneeling in our private prayers at these same times?
In the Byzantine tradition, there should be no kneeling on any Sunday, with the exception of the ordinand.
 
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AMM

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Interesting... thanks everyone. I've seen some people at my antiochian parish kneel at the consecration of the eucharist, but not everyone does. But at the greek parish, kneeling is standard for everyone pretty much every sunday (but not on the sundays after pascha, like GreekOrthodox stated).

I thought I had read somewhere recently that the prohibition was extended to Saturdays and major feasts, but I'm not sure where I read it... or if I am making it up in my mind :)

Forbidden to kneel? That is a new one for me. Where do we come up with these rules?
Like All4Christ said - it actually dates back pretty far. I'm curious as to when the Catholic/Western tradition started kneeling on Sundays, since I would guess that the practice was pretty uniform early on, what with it being stated in the Council of Nicea, but I'm interested to research how it developed
 
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All4Christ

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Interesting... thanks everyone. I've seen some people at my antiochian parish kneel at the consecration of the eucharist, but not everyone does. But at the greek parish, kneeling is standard for everyone pretty much every sunday (but not on the sundays after pascha, like GreekOrthodox stated).

I thought I had read somewhere recently that the prohibition was extended to Saturdays and major feasts, but I'm not sure where I read it... or if I am making it up in my mind :)


Like All4Christ said - it actually dates back pretty far. I'm curious as to when the Catholic/Western tradition started kneeling on Sundays, since I would guess that the practice was pretty uniform early on, what with it being stated in the Council of Nicea, but I'm interested to research how it developed
This article says it was around the Middle Ages

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Kneeling and Genuflection
 
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Andrei D

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In the Romanian tradition we do kneel for the reading of the Gospel, for the Great Entrance (from "now lay aside every worldly care" to when the Heruvic hymn resumes) and for the Anaphoral (after "Hosanna in the highest." until the priest exclaims "Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady"). I do not think we kneel for the Lord's Prayer, but that might be variable. In my parish they kneel on "common" Sundays. It is just the way it is.

I have never heard of no kneeling on Saturdays. Recall, however, that the Saturday evening Vespers belongs to Sunday's liturgical day so no kneeling would apply to that, I think.

One of the things someone once pointed out is that Canon XX of the 1st EC (325) that forbids kneeling on Sundays does not specify any penalty for disobeying it (most other Canons do).

I do believe two things: first, modern day Orthodox rarely go to services outside Sunday so it's their only chance to kneel; second, especially if you are new or visiting, I think the right thing to do is do what the parish does, and not try to, pardon the pun, stand out.
 
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AMM

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In the Romanian tradition we do kneel for the reading of the Gospel, for the Great Entrance (from "now lay aside every worldly care" to when the Heruvic hymn resumes) and for the Anaphoral (after "Hosanna in the highest." until the priest exclaims "Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady"). I do not think we kneel for the Lord's Prayer, but that might be variable. In my parish they kneel on "common" Sundays. It is just the way it is.

I have never heard of no kneeling on Saturdays. Recall, however, that the Saturday evening Vespers belongs to Sunday's liturgical day so no kneeling would apply to that, I think.

One of the things someone once pointed out is that Canon XX of the 1st EC (325) that forbids kneeling on Sundays does not specify any penalty for disobeying it (most other Canons do).

I do believe two things: first, modern day Orthodox rarely go to services outside Sunday so it's their only chance to kneel; second, especially if you are new or visiting, I think the right thing to do is do what the parish does, and not try to, pardon the pun, stand out.
Thanks for that info about Romania - neat to see how different countries practice specific things.

Hadn't noticed that about not having a penalty. So what does that mean? That the bishops were essentially saying, "this is a good thing to follow, but ultimately it's not a problem either way?" or am I totally off base?

And yeah, I try to follow what the parish is doing. The only exception is one time when I was at a WR service I was caught off guard at the consecration. I felt it would be more disruptive to try to figure out how to set up the kneeler while the priest was chanting the Words of Institution, so I resorted to doing what I would do in my Lutheran background when kneelers were not available (which is a deep bow). But generally speaking - I'd agree. In the words of Saint Ambrose, "when in Rome, do as the Romans do."
 
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Exactly. And the intent was neither mystical nor theologic, but rather formal.
"to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing. "

Hardly the "whosoever shall dare to... let he be anathema" of other typical canons :)
 
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All4Christ

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Exactly. And the intent was neither mystical nor theologic, but rather formal.
"to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing. "

Hardly the "whosoever shall dare to... let he be anathema" of other typical canons :)
Well - the Church Fathers, such as St Basil the Great in his canon 91, have theological reasons regarding it (see what I quoted above)...It just isn’t listed in this canon. It isn’t, however, a theological canon. It’s praxis, not doctrinal.
 
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There are reasons for not following this practice, and I get some of them. But I think it's useful to remember that if what a canon prescribes is not done, that doesn't make the doer an insane schismatic heretic. Just like one region-one bishop, which is not observed at every second in the US.
 
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I felt it would be more disruptive to try to figure out how to set up the kneeler while the priest was chanting the Words of Institution, so I resorted to doing what I would do in my Lutheran background when kneelers were not available (which is a deep bow).

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you are saying and I am curious. What is a kneeler?
 
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