Do you have a relationship with Jesus?

Seeing as this is a board for new Christians, I can't help but think that this thread is only going to hurt new believers.

Scripture never talks about having a "relationship with Jesus", it's not how the Apostles spoke, and it's now how the Church has ever spoke about our salvation.

The inherent issue here is in treating salvation as an interior experience, and treating Jesus as an interior figure. Instead of looking outside of myself to the Jesus who lived, suffered, died, rose again, is seated at the right hand of the Father, and who meets us through His Word and Sacraments the language suggests we can find our salvation by looking inside ourselves--to our feelings, our disposition, etc.

The promise of God which is ours in Jesus isn't that if we say the right things, think the right things, do the right things, believe the right things, feel the right things--and if we just try really hard, or feel it just right, that we are saved.

The promise of God which is ours in Jesus is that He died for us.

Christ died for you. And since He died for you, then you are the benefactor of all God's goodness. So that all who have trust in Him shall never be put to shame, that all who trust in Jesus have God's solemn promise. We can, therefore, look to God's word, to God's promise, which is ours in Christ.

Don't look to yourself. Don't ask yourself, "Have I done X? Have I 'made Jesus lord of my life'?" Etc. Instead, set your eyes upon Jesus, the Author and Finisher of your faith.

Do you grieve over your sin? You are forgiven all your sins, for Christ died once and for all, for you, a sinner.

Do you worry about your salvation? Trust in Christ, by whom God has and is saving you.

Do you wonder if your conversion was true? Remember your baptism, whereby you were born again and united to Christ.

Do you doubt? Then pray, "Lord I believe, help my unbelief!"

In all things look to Christ, He is your Savior. Not because of anything you said or did or felt or thought--but because that's who He is. He is the Savior of the whole world, the Lord who gave His life as ransom to all. Trust in Him, and believe the good news. You belong to Christ, and if you are Christ's then you belong to God. This is most certainly true.

Do not be dismayed by those preachers and teachers who would try and destroy your hope in the Son of God. But cling to Jesus, He is Faithful and True.


-CryptoLutheran

PJ76 said:

I would disagree. Jesus made it clear that action was required by each individual to be saved which is part of our free will choice. Please read Matthew 7.

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Ephesians 2:8-9

Our works, our efforts, our power doesn't contribute anything. There is no room for boasting in ourselves.

-CryptoLutheran

PJ76 said:

I would again disagree. Yes scripture doesn't mention the words relationship with Jesus, but just knowing who Jesus is does not mean you are saved. Jesus said we needed to repent and obey. Certain Christian words are not contained in scripture but is still part of orthodox Christianity (e.g. Trinity).

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Nobody thinks simply "knowing who Jesus is" is salvation. That's not faith. Faith is a radical, bold trust in God's grace; it is God's gift to us which we have received freely by His grace, "By grace have you been saved, through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8) As we read, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." (Romans 10:17).

My salvation is not about me having a "personal relationship" with Jesus, it's about what God has done for me in Jesus, it is about what Christ has done already, once and for all, which is given to me as pure gift.

There is no salvation apart from Christ, and so telling people to look somewhere except Christ for their salvation is damnable.

I know you mean well, but what you are advising the young in Christ is a shipwreck to their nascent faith. Instead of telling them to trust upon Jesus, to look to Jesus, to trust in God's promises in Jesus you are telling them to look elsewhere, you are telling them to determine their salvation by their own power, their own strength, their own abilities. You are preaching a false gospel, and thereby preaching death and despair.

Do not do this. Preach the Gospel. Preach Jesus Christ. Stop preaching something else.

For the sake of the Body, please, be a preacher of the Gospel and do not lay down upon the necks of the newborns a weight which you yourself could never hope to carry either.

You should be preaching Jesus Christ, and the hope that is in Him.

We are faithless, but He is Faithful. He is our Good Shepherd, our solid rock, our Foundation.

In Christ alone our hope is found. Him and no where else.

Preach that. Preach Jesus. If you are not able to do that, then do not preach at all.

-CryptoLutheran

PJ76 said:

I would disagree. Without a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, a person cannot claim to be born again since being a follower of Christ requires action. A gift must still be received with open arms, opened and accepted.

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I am born again because by the solemn word and promise of God I have received new birth from Him, as the Apostle says, "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to His own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit," (Titus 3:5) Even as Christ our God Himself has said, "Jesus answered, 'Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter God's kingdom." (John 3:5), for this reason He says, "you must be born again".

For having received the new birth from God, freely, by His grace, in the waters of Holy Baptism we can with confidence know that we belong to God, for the Apostle St. Paul says, "All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Galatians 3:27) and "You were buried with Him in baptism" (Colossians 2:12).

But as for the context you mention concerning the Apostles' words in his Epistle to the Ephesians,

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:1-9

The Apostle is not talking about, specifically, the commandments of the Torah, but works in general. That is why he says "this is not of your own doing" and "not a result of works".

For we, having been dead, in the trespasses of our flesh, have been made alive by the power of God, for God having accomplished every good for us by sending His Son, who suffered, bled, died, and rose again, has achieved for us the full merit of satisfaction of righteousness. So that there is now a righteousness apart from God's commandment, the righteousness which is by faith, as it is written, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Gentile, through which the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'" (Romans 1:16-17) For we have received justification from God, freely, through faith, by what Christ alone has accomplished, "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made just." (Romans 5:18-19), for Christ has made perfect satisfaction for all.

Therefore "Anyone who trusts upon Him will never be put to shame" and indeed, "whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Romans 10:11 & 13).

You are free to disagree, but this is the Gospel: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son that whosever trusts in Him will not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16)

For we have been freely justified by His grace, through faith, which is not of ourselves, but God's gift, on account of what Christ has done.

"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." - Romans 5:1-11

-CryptoLutheran

PJ76 said:

Again I would disagree. Paul was not suggesting we ignore every works in general. Otherwise Paul would be contradicting himself in verse 10. We are, as Christians, required to do the good works of obedience to the teachings of Christ. For Jesus said, "Why do you call me Lord Lord, and not do what I say?"

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Understand the distinction between Law and Gospel. The Law says "Do this" and it is never done, Grace says "Trust this" and it is done already.

Of course we are to dedicate and devout our lives to good works. But why?

Do we devout ourselves to good works in order to merit favor from God, because by our strength we can attain holiness, righteousness, goodness for ourselves? Of course not.

So why? It is simple: Your neighbor is hungry, give them food. Your neighbor is thirsty, give them drink. Your neighbor is naked, clothe them. Your neighbor is a stranger, welcome them.

God doesn't need your good works which are as filthy rags. But your neighbor does.

All who seek to be righteous by the Law will be condemned by the Law. For the Law brings with it death and condemnation on account of sin.

God's commandment is good and holy, but I am not; and so the commandment which is good brings death to me because of sin.

So that where the Law increases, sin increases; but where sin increases, grace increases all the more. So then should we say that because of grace we should go on sinning, God forbid! But know that you are a sinner, and so as long as sin dwells in your mortal members the Law is your condemnation, not your deliverance.

You cannot, then, trust in your works. For your works are filthy, tainted by sin. Even our most noble of works are tainted. So indeed we find this truth:

"What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." - Romans 7:7-25

-CryptoLutheran

PJ76 said:

Obedience is mandatory, it is not optional. Obedience is a requirement, not an option.

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This is a strawman argument, I haven't suggested that obedience is optional.

My argument is the purpose of good works in the life of the Christian, not whether or not good works should be done.

Are good works our contribution to God in order to gain favor, merit, and benefit from God? No.

Are good works to be done out of reverence to Jesus Christ out of love for our neighbor? Yes, absolutely.

If you are doing "good works" for your own benefit, thinking by them you are holy, righteous, or good, then you are not doing good works, but are compounding your sin. For all who seek to be righteous by the Law will never find it, for the Law cannot justify anyone.

So, instead, walk in the good works which have been created for you in Christ, as your crucified life of service to Him in love and sacrifice toward your fellow man. If your neighbor is hungry, give them food. If your neighbor is thirsty, give them drink. If your neighbor needs clothes and medicine, clothe them, help them get medical care. If you see a foreigner or a stranger, welcome them. If someone strikes you on the one cheek, turn and offer the other. Bless and do not curse. Pray for those who oppress you. Love your enemy. Indeed,

"Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." - Romans 12:9-21

Reckon yourself dead to sin and a slave to God.

But do not, in arrogance, think that your works are anything more than the meager efforts of a sinner. We are all but beggars.

-CryptoLutheran

PJ76 said:

Hi Aiki, yes we do have to look in the mirror to determine whether or not we are actually living in obedience to the word. And if we are not living in obedience, then perhaps we are not who we claim to be and need to repent. It all starts with repentance. Repent and trust that Jesus has forgiven you. And start living in obedience.

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Christian living doesn't begin and end with obedience. In the Gospels, Christ's greatest enemies were those who were obedient (at least, externally). The Pharisees were very careful to obey the law, though they hated the God who had given them the law they were so carefully observing. Even when God stood before them in the flesh, performing miracles, and teaching with supernatural wisdom and power, they saw the devil at work. So, then, obedience is not the only or the best litmus test of the genuineness of a person's salvation experience. As the Pharisees demonstrated, conformity to the rules, obedience, can be an entirely external thing, an outward show, that does not arise from a heart of love for Christ but is, rather, a prideful, hypocritical display of self-centered religiosity.

The First and Great Commandment, the commandment that is the ground or foundation for all other obedience, is to love God with all of one's being. (Matthew 22:36-38) It is the mistake of the Pharisee, however, to say that obedience is love. This is to conflate effect with cause. Obedience manifests the Christian's love for God, it reveals his love for Christ, but obedience is not itself love any more than the energy that a car's engine produces is the engine itself.

I think it is very...interesting that God commands our obedience to begin, not with external acts - Bible study, church attendance, prayer, etc. - but with a condition of the heart, an attitude, a desire, that cannot come from one who is "dead in trespasses and sins." (Ephesians 2:1) Scripture tells us that the love God wants from us, that He commands from us, is love that He gives to us in the Person of His Spirit:

Romans 5:5
5 And hope makes not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost who is given unto us.

This divine love, this agape love, is revealed more and more in the believer's life as s/he lives in moment-by-moment surrender to the will and way of God. (James 4:7; James 4:10; Romans 6:13; Romans 12:1; 1 Peter 5:6) Surrender allows God's divine love to deepen and expand freely in the life of the believer. But, surrender is also the effect, the consequence, of the love of God shed abroad in one's heart. It is because one loves God (and thus trusts Him) that one is willing to surrender to Him in every area of one's life. And as surrender occurs, the happy result is a life that is truly obedient, that more and more fulfills the First and Great Commandment and then all of the other commands God gives to His children.

PJ76 said:

I disagree. Obedience has nothing to do with church attendance and going to bible study since these things did not exist during Jesus ministry.

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This is a curious basis upon which to determine what things constitute obedience to God. Are we not commanded in Scripture to "forsake not the assembling of yourselves together"? Yes, we are. (Hebrews 10:25) Does Scripture not repeatedly urge the believer to be a careful student of God's word? Yes, it does. (Psalms 1; Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:15; 1 Peter 2:2, etc.)

PJ76 said:

I would disagree. Christian living is all about trusting in Jesus and obedience.

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Actually, it seems very evident to me in Scripture that knowing God, loving Him and then living in a way that glorifies Him form the core of Christian living. Obedience is the by-product of the first two things.

PJ76 said:

The Pharisees were condemned because of their pride, not their disobedience.

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Pride does not constitute disobedience? How do you work that out, exactly?

PJ76 said:

The Pharisees were condemned because even though they were obedient, they did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah and refused to put their trust in Jesus.

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This talks past my point which was that obedience doesn't necessarily evidence a heart of love for God. One can be obedient to God's law without loving Him. The Pharisees were obedient in this way and so are many Christians today. Obedience, then, is not the sole or primary way a person can know they are walking well with God.

PJ76 said:

Those verses has nothing to do with salvation. The two greatest commandments was to love the Lord and love your neighbors.

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The verses I cited contain biblical commands which those who are saved ought to follow. I'm glad that you agree with me that keeping them doesn't make a person saved nor prove that a person is saved. Obedience is the consequence of salvation not the means of salvation.

PJ76 said:

Comparing a Christian to a Pharisee is comparing apples to oranges. The Pharisees did not believe Jesus was the Messiah. Like I said, your comparing apples to oranges. A genuine Christian is someone who loves the Lord and keeps His commandments.

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The Pharisees were keen to obey God's laws and so to prove their piety, their religious zeal, even though their hearts were far from God Himself. In this regard, in the matter of their obedience and their motivation for their obedience, they are very similar to modern Christians who also think that (external) obedience is the prime means of demonstrating their piety, their spiritual commitment and depth. And, of course, those Christians who think this way, who make obedience to biblical commands the core of their Christian living, are just as mistaken as the Pharisees who made obedience to God's law the core of their living. Obedience is the fruit of a relationship with God; obedience follows after one has been redeemed, reconciled, sanctified, justified and adopted into God's family by God.

As I pointed out in my first post in this thread, the Bible points to a variety of things that indicate a person is truly saved. Obedience to biblical commands is just one of these indicators - and as the Pharisees demonstrated, not necessarily a reliable one.

PJ76 said:

Jesus would disagree. He said, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."

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But he didn't say, "Only those who truly love me will keep my commandments," did he? No, he didn't. There are many "Christians" trying to prove they love God by their "right living." Like the Pharisees, they do all the external things, all the things others can see, showing everyone that they are the "real deal," that they are truly "of God." But in their hearts they are cold toward God; there is no joy in their obedience, no love, only fearful obedience born of a desire for self-preservation, or of prideful piety, or of obligation.