The Virgin Mary and her savior

David Cabrera said:

She still had ancestral sin which is different from any personal sin, and like I said before, not committing any sin does not merit you salvation

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Scripture please.

JacksBratt said:

Still, he is not above any human and certainly not someone that should be prayed to.

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Again, nobody is praying to him. You ask Christians in the Church Triumphant to pray to God on your behalf just as you would ask those in the Church Militant. It's simply a prayer request, no different than picking up the phone and calling family and asking them to pray for you.

David Cabrera said:

Babies don't sin

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They don't need to be saved either.

Newtheran said:

Again, nobody is praying to him. You ask Christians in the Church Triumphant to pray to God on your behalf just as you would ask those in the Church Militant. It's simply a prayer request, no different than picking up the phone and calling family and asking them to pray for you.

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I can ask my living Dad to pray for my kids. I can ask my Pastor, uncle, wife, neighbor.. to pray for an issue in my life... by voice, letter, email...

How do you speak to dead people... or people who are in heaven? That is the difference.

We cannot and do not communicate with the dead.... believers or non believers.

David Cabrera said:

"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter." 2 Thessalonians 2:15

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This scripture doesn't have anything to do with what you are talking about.

JacksBratt said:

We cannot and do not communicate with the dead.... believers or non believers.

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Again, you're back to the idea of the members of the Church Triumphant being dead. Christians aren't dead. One of the dangers of forbidding intercessory prayer is that we adopt a very humanistic perspective towards death.

Newtheran said:

Again, you're back to the idea of the members of the Church Triumphant being dead. Christians aren't dead. One of the dangers of forbidding intercessory prayer is that we adopt a very humanistic perspective towards death.

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Sure then... when you can write a letter, email, phone or talk directly to one of these people.. who are saved but in another dimension.... feel free to pass along your prayer requests.. sheeesh..

JacksBratt said:

Sure then... when you can ... talk directly to one of these people.. who are saved but in another dimension.... feel free to pass along your prayer requests.. sheeesh..

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Which is precisely what intercessory prayer is, and what Christians have been doing for a couple of millenia now.

Newtheran said:

If you take Jesus' teachings seriously, I'd wager that not only is he more fully alive today than any of us posting on here are, but has a better understanding of all aspects of creation than we do.

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I'm going to say this and leave it at that:

If people go around with a list of saints Saints to pray to with, you'd better hope that guy went to the right place.

And for the record, do you have a list of these people memorized or something?

JacksBratt said:

Sure then... when you can write a letter, email, phone or talk directly to one of these people.. who are saved but in another dimension.... feel free to pass along your prayer requests.. sheeesh..

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That has happened on many occasions. I doubt you will take my word for it though.

MDC said:

If she was pure what purpose is there for a Savior?

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Catholics believe that, in relation to a linear timeline, Effect precedes Cause in Our Lady's case. Her Redeemer is the same as yours and mine. The difference is the application of His redemptive work.

AV1611VET said:

Nuclear-powered aircraft carrier.

I find it ... humorous that people today should pray to a man who died in AD 303 about issues with a radiation leak aboard a nuclear vessel.

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I actually find your analogy to be silly, maybe that is why you are humoring yourself.

AV1611VET said:

...And for the record, do you have a list of these people memorized or something?

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I don't know if you seriously want an answer or not given the prior part.
I'm curious, do you carry a list of those to whom you ask for prayer support?

Usually, I ask for their prayers, when I see/meet with them for prayer. That can be anywhere but is most often in the prayer corner of my house or when I'm at the parish.

FenderTL5 said:

I'm curious, do you carry a list of those to whom you ask for prayer support?

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No, but I would if I embraced this doctrine of theirs.

After all, I wouldn't want to pray to St Denis (headaches) by mistake if I had abdominal pains (St Elmo).

My point is simply this:

Do you guys walk your talk?

None of my business of course, but how much do you spend on indulgences, baptizing for the dead, etc.?

Not to burst any bubbles here, but do you realize they've analyzed the wafer after it was blessed; and guess what?

Wheat DNA ... that's it.

The analogy of Mary being sinless regardless of her saying "God my savior" is on the context of prevention.

A savior isn't just someone who remedies or cures the inflicted person but can also be seen as someone who prevents the person from getting in harms way. Both equally needed a savior, it's just the difference is how they were saved.

All those verses that where posted Romans 3:10, 3:23, etc don't exclude Jesus.. do they? So if you are using these verses as biblical proof that Mary had sin then why can't a random heretic use these same verses to argue about Jesus having sin? This heretic's usage of Romans wouldn't work because of existing verses supporting Jesus being sinless, making any stated exemptions in those Romans verses completely unnecessary. This is the same with Mary.

It's been stated from Genesis in where God said he would put "enmity between the Woman and the Serpent". Jesus called Mary "Woman" most of the time because he was referencing this very verse. She is that "Woman" who God put enmity between her and the Serpent.

David Cabrera said:

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? John 10:34-36

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What a brand new religion...one in which we are no longer single-mindedly focused and dependent on Christ!
The passage you cite never assigned godly duties to the saints...who are mere believers.
Isaiah 42:8:
I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

AV1611VET said:

No, but I would if I embraced this doctrine of theirs.

After all, I wouldn't want to pray to St Denis (headaches) by mistake if I had abdominal pains (St Elmo).

My point is simply this:

Do you guys walk your talk?

None of my business of course, but how much do you spend on indulgences, baptizing for the dead, etc.?

Not to burst any bubbles here, but do you realize they've analyzed the wafer after it was blessed; and guess what?

Wheat DNA ... that's it.

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Baptizing for the dead?? That’s a Mormon concept, not Orthodox or Catholic. Indulgences? They don’t have any place in Orthodox Christianity.

All4Christ said:

Baptizing for the dead??

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You've never squirted a coffin with a spray bottle at a funeral?

Newtheran said:

Which is precisely what intercessory prayer is, and what Christians have been doing for a couple of millenia now.

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All the while it is not scriptural.. right? Even angels have told men not to bow down to them as they are fellow servants. Prayer is a form of worship and God wants us to worship only Him.. or Christ or the Holy Spirit.

Pray to these. They are the only ones who can receive this kind of worship.