The Book of Acts isn't just for Dispensationalists!!!

notreligus said:

I hate to read this. It seems that you just traded ditches.

I was Dispensational for over 40 years. Hyper-Dispensational (Mid-Acts) for about 12 of those years. I believed the false teaching of two Gospels with two separate plans of salvation with two separate destinations for these two people. Israel should receive her earthly blessings and remain on the Earth. The Church will receive her heavenly blessings and remain in Heaven (for now) and on the new planet, the New Jerusalem, which will come down to the Earth but never be on the Earth. After the church is raptured she'll never be back to Earth. That's Full Dispensationalism. Scofield taught Dispensationalism Light or Partial Dispensationalism. According to Dispensationals the Mosaic Law (613 commandments) and animal sacrifices will again be practiced in the Temple. Forget Grace, or the fact that Jesus died to reconcile all of mankind. He was God's own provision. You can't really believe in Grace and claim that Law will be restored. They don't coexist. The Law demands a payment; Grace made the provision. It's already done.

The Bible is one book, with one main Character, Jesus Christ, and the one main message is the reconciliation of mankind. God has one people. He always had but one people, the Church, which He envisioned before the foundation of the world.

There are nearly 100 references to the fact that salvation was to come through the finished work of Christ in Genesis! Get out of Dispensationalism and look for Jesus as you read the Bible. It's about Him!! Genesis 3:21 refers to how Christ's future sacrifice would provide the covering for mankind's sin. It would be come a permanent covering!

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It is all about Jesus and I specifically explained I’m not about 2p2p.

I know this is to Cross Note... but I’m telling you, it is all about Jesus... and I’ll bet ya, you won’t just hear it from me.

Contenders Edge said:

Make no mistake, while I do agree with much your post, there are still some things that cannot be dismissed:



“1) The shift form Judaism to Christianity wasn't an easy matter.”



Technically speaking, Christianity at first was viewed as a newly formed sect of Judaism as implied by the scriptures and recorded in history, but the book of Acts also states when the followers of Christ were first called Christians (Acts 11:26) At first, and this is historically speaking, “Christian” was hurled at the followers of Christ as an insult, but the followers of Christ decided to adopt the label for the newly formed faith perhaps because they decided that this is what they were and it has served since that day to keep followers of “The Way” as it was first called according to the book of Acts from being confused with Judaism at large.

Christianity did not abolish Judaism, but actually fulfills it, which seems to be the view of Messianic Jews who will say that when a Jew converts to Christianity, they do not stop being Jewish but that they become what they call “a completed Jew.”



“2) The 11 Apostles weren't Christians, but Jews... long into the book of Acts.”


There were elven to start out with, but Paul became the twelfth and that you may wish to make clear to your readers lest they think you are stating that there were only eleven.

And as mentioned earlier, they were first called in Christians in Antioch (Acts 11:26) and that is what we who follow Christ are called and call ourselves to this day.



3) “Paul was the turning point of it all.”



You may wish to elaborate on this point further. Paul was the primary vessel in taking the Gospel to the Gentiles although there were other followers of Christ preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles as well, and he also wrote over half of the New Testament, but to get right down to it, it is Jesus, who commissioned Paul and made him one of the Apostles, who is the turning point for the entire world.

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Don’t stop here! I’m reading every word and smiling. True story.

I appreciate this and am always eager to listen and possibly even learn.

Mel333 said:

May I ask, what is dispensationalism?

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In short, it is the premise that Rebellious Israel was cut off from Messiah by the hardness of their hearts. (John 19:15 and Acts Of the Apostles 7)

It states that the Church is not “Israel”, but the Body of Christ. It does this to separate the Election that is received by responding to the Gospel, Believing and being led into True Belief that is in Christ, from the Chosen or Elected status of Israel.

It recognizes the notion that Paul reveals a plan (Romans 11:25-35) that Israelites who are hardened against Christ and the Gospel, will have a future event (Dead, Alive and to come), where God turns their Hearts back towards Him, by revealing Himself to them, as He did to Saul on Damascus.

Ephesians 2, Ephesians 3 and Ephesians 4 distinguish the (Body of Christ) as a separate entity from (Israel). Romans 9, Romans 10 and Romans 11 further separate Unbelieving Israel from Believing Israel, then Distinguishes Gentile Believers, as well. It believes that Believing Israel integrated into the Gentile Body of Christ, ultimately founded by Paul (Commissioned by Christ... post Ascension... which is unique to the Apostles who communed with Christ Pre-Ascension)...

The BOC, in various denominations have usurped Israel’s (Chosen) status, by claiming the BOC is Israel and Israel simply means “God’s People”. The issue is that Israel means (Contends with God) and traces through Lineage of Jacob, While the BOC is traced through the Spiritual Lineage Of Abraham (Faith).

Ekklesia means God’s people and is the root word for (Church)... but it is not a synonym for Israel, biblically speaking. As Abraham is a Hebrew (Crosses Over)... but is not a descendant of Jacob, So Israel are Hebrew descendants of Abraham, Given Namesake by being descendants of Jacob (Israel) placed under the Law (Deuteronomy 31:26).

Modern Dispensationalism is far too complex and outside of my tolerance for Scriptural accuracy...

To me, Jesus is the True Temple of the Jews and the Jews that rejected Jesus, rejected their “True Tabernacle” with God.

It is my Scriptural belief that as Paul states (Romans 11:25) and Jesus states (Luke 21:24)... there will come a time when the Fullness of us Gentiles (2 Peter 3:9) is complete...

From there... several factors are known...

1) God will retrieve the Body of Christ

2) The Anti Christ will Come and claim to be God... setting themself up in Jerusalem.

3) There is a 1000 year period... which is really only viable under 2 belief systems... AMillenial (We are in the 1000 year period)... but Satan would have to be locked away and that seems unlikely... PreMillenial (The period is yet to come)

There is also this system for that (2 Peter 3:8) but it’s all conjecture in the Pre, A and Figurative of the conjecture.

4) The nation of Israel exists again.

5) Acts Of the Apostles 1:6, Acts Of the Apostles 1:9-12 (Emphasis given Location in Acts Of the Apostles 1:12). Zechariah 14 (Emphasis Zechariah 14:4 location)... Joel 2 and Joel 3 (Emphasis parallel between Joel 3:1-6 and Zechariah 14:12)

6) Revelation specifically names Israel (Which is scripturally Elect) by Tribes (Revelation 7) (144,000 / Divisible by 12 in a symbolic way that points to Jacob’s descendants... speculatively)

I could go on... but that’s the basics.

The reason this is believed is because God always honors His promises, not because of us, but because He is wonderful. This binds back to Romans 11:25-36

All Love in Jesus Christ to you.

Dave L said:

There is only one people (Church/Israel) of God.

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Ekklesia is not Israel
Abraham is not Jacob
The New Man is not the Nation

Acts of the Apostles 7:51-53 stands against such a posit (IMO)

It is in ACTs 7 where Steven evokes the Prophetic Condemnation Verbiage Against the Nation Of Israel that God always did before it received chastising (Acts 7:51 Cross References: Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.)

If a person wants to suggest the BOC is cut off from Messiah, currently, they can still be my guest.

The Testator Of Israel’s Covenant died, allowing the Covenant shift...

This is legal clause verbiage that Scripture utilizes.

To say the BOC is Israel is to Nullify the New Covenant. IMO

Dave L said:

You are cooking the books trying to hide the sum total. Jesus is Israel in the NT, along with those connected to him by faith.

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I can appreciate your perspective on this Dave. IMO, I’m being true to Paul’s words in Romans 11.

Dave L said:

Moses calls Abraham's seed the Hebrews and Israel interchangeably in Genesis.

Paul says Jesus is Abraham's seed, not the unbelieving Jews Galatians 3:16. Matthew's use of Hosea reveals that Jesus IS Israel.

“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

“Then he [Joseph] got up, took the child and his mother during the night, and went to Egypt. He stayed there until Herod died. In this way what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet was fulfilled: “I called my Son out of Egypt.”” (Matthew 2:14–15)

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One last time... (IMO)

If a fireman is also a policeman... the words are interchangeable. (Visa Vi... Israelites are descendants of Jacob and Abraham)

If a fireman is not a policeman... the words are not interchangeable. (Visa Vi... Abraham is NOT a descendant of Jacob, as that would be some creepy Jerry Springer stuff)

I will concede this line of Argument if scripture calls Abraham an Israelite by namesake, in any verse within all Cannon.

Contenders Edge said:

Make no mistake, while I do agree with much your post, there are still some things that cannot be dismissed:



“1) The shift form Judaism to Christianity wasn't an easy matter.”



Technically speaking, Christianity at first was viewed as a newly formed sect of Judaism as implied by the scriptures and recorded in history, but the book of Acts also states when the followers of Christ were first called Christians (Acts 11:26) At first, and this is historically speaking, “Christian” was hurled at the followers of Christ as an insult, but the followers of Christ decided to adopt the label for the newly formed faith perhaps because they decided that this is what they were and it has served since that day to keep followers of “The Way” as it was first called according to the book of Acts from being confused with Judaism at large.

Christianity did not abolish Judaism, but actually fulfills it, which seems to be the view of Messianic Jews who will say that when a Jew converts to Christianity, they do not stop being Jewish but that they become what they call “a completed Jew.”



“2) The 11 Apostles weren't Christians, but Jews... long into the book of Acts.”


There were elven to start out with, but Paul became the twelfth and that you may wish to make clear to your readers lest they think you are stating that there were only eleven.

And as mentioned earlier, they were first called in Christians in Antioch (Acts 11:26) and that is what we who follow Christ are called and call ourselves to this day.



3) “Paul was the turning point of it all.”



You may wish to elaborate on this point further. Paul was the primary vessel in taking the Gospel to the Gentiles although there were other followers of Christ preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles as well, and he also wrote over half of the New Testament, but to get right down to it, it is Jesus, who commissioned Paul and made him one of the Apostles, who is the turning point for the entire world.

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Does any of this post begin to clear matters up a little better?

Link here