Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

Grip Docility

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Yes, but we have all heard that before from Christians who are now ranting atheists.

Should you find yourself in that category of ranting atheists in the future, someone else will come along and say exactly as you have said here: “Well, that just shows that Grip Docility was never truly saved in the first place. I will never fall because I am truly saved, unlike him.”

You can fall, friend. We all can. It is great that you have confidence in the Lord, but do not be deceived.

How many times have I attempted to uplift you? How many times have I presented Faith in Him to guide us to the finish line?

I ask you now, Brother, what spirit tells us that we will/can fail and not reach the finish line?

Are we not to build one another up? (1 Thessalonians 5:11)

What leads you to tell Christians that they will/can Fail, when Jesus has promised us this.... (Philippians 1:6)
 
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Shimokita

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Disagree, here.

Philippians 3

4 although I once had confidence in the flesh too. If anyone else thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I have more:
5 circumcised the eighth day; of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;
6 as to zeal, persecuting the church; as to the righteousness that is in the law, blameless.
7 But everything that was a gain to me, I have considered to be a loss because of Christ.
8 More than that, I also consider everything to be a loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. Because of Him I have suffered the loss of all things and consider them filth (Skabala) , so that I may gain Christ
9 and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own from the law, but one that is through faith in Christ-the righteousness from God based on faith.
Yes friend, it is not a righteousness of my own from the law, it is a righteousness I receive “from God”. It is not an imputed righteousness.

Again, as I wrote, there is not one verse in Sacred Scripture that teaches that our Lord’s own personal righteousness is imputed to a believer.
 
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Shimokita

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How many times have I attempted to uplift you? How many times have I presented Faith in Him to guide us to the finish line?

I ask you now, Brother, what spirit tells us that we will/can fail and not reach the finish line?

Are we not to build one another up? (1 Thessalonians 5:11)

What leads you to tell Christians that they will/can Fail, when Jesus has promised us this.... (Philippians 1:6)
The Bible clearly teaches that a Christian can fall.
 
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BNR32FAN

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In contrast Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 It's a done deal.

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved

1John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Ok Jesus also said this in John 5

“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭5:25-29‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Did you notice verses 28 & 29?

“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭NASB‬‬

You keep forgetting the scriptures were written in Greek, not English, and correct me if I’m wrong but I believe I have shown you the Greek definition of the word pisteuo (G4100) several times. It is not the same definition as believe. The Greek word pisteuo also includes “the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul” in its primary definition. This means a believer is not only someone who believes and trusts in Jesus but also lives according to his inner convictions of a higher standard of morality. The primary definition of the Greek word pistos (G4103) translated to believer means a trustworthy and faithful servant.

1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on

2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises

1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead

2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation

Simply believing and doing nothing or continuing to live a sinful life does not make someone a believer in the biblical sense.

The Greek word échō that is translated to “has” has a variety of meanings. So it’s not entirely impossible that Jesus wasn’t referring to those who have laid hold to salvation.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

hath

G2192


Lemma:

ἔχω


Transliteration:

échō


Pronounce:

skheh'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to have, i.e. to hold a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as

2) to have i.e. own, possess a) external things such as pertain to property or riches or furniture or utensils or goods or food etc. b) used of those joined to any one by the bonds of natural blood or marriage or friendship or duty or law etc, of attendance or companionship

3) to hold one's self or find one's self so and so, to be in such or such a condition

4) to hold one's self to a thing, to lay hold of a thing, to adhere or cling to a) to be closely joined to a person or a thing
 
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Shimokita

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Did our Lord then Die, get Buried, Rise and then ask Peter if he Loved him... 3 times?
He did.

Continue to give the same answer as St. Peter, and you’ll be A OK.

All of this really comes down to one thing - you seem to believe that a person who had been saved no longer has free choice. You seem to think that God forces his hand, so that the person is literally incapable of rejecting him.

I think that the man retains free will and that our Lord does not force the man to continue to say yes.

I suppose that just comes down to the different way that we view Sacred Scripture. Different people come to different conclusions and that is fine. Ultimately if both us continue to say yes to our Lord we will meet each other in Heaven, regardless of how we think it works.
 
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MDC

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Yes friend, it is not a righteousness of my own from the law, it is a righteousness I receive “from God”. It is not an imputed righteousness.

Again, as I wrote, there is not one verse in Sacred Scripture that teaches that our Lord’s own personal righteousness is imputed to a believer.
Infused or imparted righteousness is saying that the persons obedience and works of righteousness merits justification. Imputed righteousness is saying that the obedience and works of Christ merits justification and is the sole basis. Sola fide rest in the latter. There is no faith in the gospel of Christ in the former. This is why you can’t believe Christ guarantees salvation apart from yourself
 
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BNR32FAN

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The idea of being "sinless" in these rundown, dilapidated, Maggot bound bodies of Death... is always romantic to me. I mean, I "DESIRE" to "PLEASE" God.

But there is a problem. I can stare any man or woman down, in honesty, express that I am a sinful man, then ask them if they are without sin. The eye contact is always revealing.

For me, the Gospel magnified my knowledge of sin in my life. It made the weight so unbearable, I had to give it all to Jesus.

We are victors over sin, through Jesus, but I am certain that Every Human Being, Alive is in PERPETUAL need of Jesus' Propitiation.

My point. If a person can stand next to God and not see the difference between Perfection, and Imperfection... things aren't okay.

I certainly agree friend, I am definitely no saint. Well even the saints themselves sinned, but I absolutely agree that we will all sin. Personally I don’t believe we can achieve glorification in this life. I believe we will always be in the sanctification process in this life until we go to be with The Lord.
 
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Grip Docility

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I certainly agree friend, I am definitely no saint. Well even the saints themselves sinned, but I absolutely agree that we will all sin. Personally I don’t believe we can achieve glorification in this life. I believe we will always be in the sanctification process in this life until we go to be with The Lord.

AMEN! Job 13:16 agrees. :D The word for Godless is Hypocrite in this verse. This binds to God desiring Sincerity, Honesty and Mercy to fellow humanity above all.

Now we see that honesty bares forth good Gospel fruit. We are confessing our Sins one to another. :)
 
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MDC

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It is God transforming us to become righteous. Scripture already said that we can become righteous. That is exactly what glorification is. We become truly righteous through the power of God.
Our sanctification does not justify us before God. Only Christ and His merits justify
 
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Grip Docility

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He did.

Continue to give the same answer as St. Peter, and you’ll be A OK.

All of this really comes down to one thing - you seem to believe that a person who had been saved no longer has free choice. You seem to think that God forces his hand, so that the person is literally incapable of rejecting him.

I think that the man retains free will and that our Lord does not force the man to continue to say yes.

I suppose that just comes down to the different way that we view Sacred Scripture. Different people come to different conclusions and that is fine. Ultimately if both us continue to say yes to our Lord we will meet each other in Heaven, regardless of how we think it works.

No brainless Robotism here.

Okay... Allow me to put this in worldly terms...

A person of the opposite sex (an unsaved soul) meets a smoking Hot member of the opposite sex (God), but they are feeling like it's all too good to be true, so they have a desire to get back with their abusive Ex (Satan).

This person... goes out on a few dates with "Smoking Hot" person and finds out they are sincere, not abusive, reliable, wealthy, Loving, compassionate, Devoted, Steadfast, Provisional... Etc... Etc...

See... Until the person develops a relationship by responding to "Smoking Hot's" text messages, conversations and clear interest... they may just stick with the (Abusive Ex) out of Habit.

However... once they experience first hand, that "Smoking Hot" is the real deal... They ain't going no where! Not by forfeiture of free will, but because they are head over heals IN LOVE.
 
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Shimokita

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Infused or imparted righteousness is saying that the persons obedience and works of righteousness merits justification. Imputed righteousness is saying that the obedience and works of Christ merits justification and is the sole basis. Sola fide rest in the latter. There is no faith in the gospel of Christ in the former. This is why you can’t believe Christ guarantees salvation apart from yourself
No, this is incorrect. Trent clearly teaches that a man is justified by grace through faith, apart from works.

What you are referring to is an increase in justification, but the man whose justification increases was already in a state of grace (what you call “saved”) before the increase in justification.

I speak only for Catholics here.
 
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Grip Docility

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No, this is incorrect. Trent clearly teaches that a man is justified by grace through faith, apart from works.

What you are referring to is an increase in justification, but the man whose justification increases was already in a state of grace (what you call “saved”) before the increase in justification.

I speak only for Catholics here.

You and I both agree Sanctification and Justification are the Sole work of God, no?
 
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Shimokita

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No brainless Robotism here.

Okay... Allow me to put this in worldly terms...

A person of the opposite sex (an unsaved soul) meets a smoking Hot member of the opposite sex (God), but they are feeling like it's all too good to be true, so they have a desire to get back with their abusive Ex (Satan).

This person... goes out on a few dates with "Smoking Hot" person and finds out they are sincere, not abusive, reliable, wealthy, Loving, compassionate, Devoted, Steadfast, Provisional... Etc... Etc...

See... Until the person develops a relationship by responding to "Smoking Hot's" text messages, conversations and clear interest... they may just stick with the (Abusive Ex) out of Habit.

However... once they experience first hand, that "Smoking Hot" is the real deal... They ain't going no where! Not by forfeiture of free will, but because they are head over heals IN LOVE.
People who find love choose to go back to their abusive boyfriends all the time, friend. People choose evil over good all the time, and people who are in love fall out of love.

But I actually agree with your analogy insofar as it applies to the souls in Heaven, who retain free will. The difference, of course, is that they share in the beatific vision, and we do not. They see clearly what we only see dimly. The other difference is that their purification has been completed and they no longer have sinful inclinations, like you and me.
 
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Grip Docility

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People who find love choose to go back to their abusive boyfriends all the time, friend. People choose evil over good all the time, and people who are in love fall out of love.

But I actually agree with your analogy insofar as it applies to the souls in Heaven, who retain free will. The difference, of course, is that they share in the beatific vision, and we do not. They see clearly what we only see dimly. The other difference is that their purification has been completed and they no longer have sinful inclinations, like you and me.

Fully Agree! :amen:
 
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Shimokita

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You and I both agree Sanctification and Justification are the Sole work of God, no?
It depends on the sense of causality you are talking about.

Man’s cooperation (assent) is required. And God works through men in order to bring about justification (such as by pastors who preach the word that the believer hears and accepts). In this sense men are instrumental causes of justification.

But if you are referring to the final cause and efficient causes of justification (as opposed to instrumental causes), yes, these would be the glory of God and the merciful God who washes and sanctifies, naturally.
 
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sculleywr

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Rom 3:21a But now a righteousness from God, apart from law,

The righteous standing we who have been born of God have is apart from issues of law. It's apart from issues of how well one complies with commands. It's by trusting in Jesus, not trusting in oneself, one's own works, one's own compliance to "law", be the law of Moses or the law of Christ.

And that faith sets us apart from you salvation-by-works Christians on the essential issue as to what one must do to be saved. "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" Acts 16:30,31
Righteousness apart from the LAW, not apart from WORKS.

Tell me, is salvation going to heaven? Is it just about a wonderful condo near the pearly gates? Cause for me, salvation is getting to know the God I love with an intimate and complete knowledge like a man knows his wife and children.
 
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Grip Docility

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It depends on the sense of causality you are talking about.

Man’s cooperation (assent) is required. And God works through men in order to bring about justification (such as by pastors who preach the word that the believer hears and accepts). In this sense men are instrumental causes of justification.

But if you are referring to the final cause and efficient causes of justification (as opposed to instrumental causes), yes, these would be the glory of God and the merciful God who washes and sanctifies, naturally.

For the sake of not straining at 'semantics", and noting we have found an enormous amount of common ground thus far.. I'll say I agree. :p
 
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