Majority of Americans say heartbeat abortion bans are not too restrictive

GodLovesCats · May 21, 2019

Calminian said:
Do you have any evidence to back this up?

The vote in Alabama. The fact that only men voted for the abortion ban there and the number of female representatives in the statehouse (including only 18 Senators) are widely noted by TV news reporters.

kiwimac · May 21, 2019

redleghunter said:
No it does not. It’s actually a fetal homicide law. I’ve shown you this several times.

Here is the passage in question.

Exodus 21: King James Version (KJV)

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Now another word for word literal translation from a modern English version.

Exodus 21: NASB

"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Exodus 21:22-25 NASB
http://bible.com/100/exo.21.22-25.NASB

Now we take a look at the Hebrew lexicon.

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

So that her fruit:

Hebrew: יֶלֶד yeled

The KJV translates Strongs H3206 in the following manner:child (72x), young man (7x), young ones (3x), sons (3x), boy(2x), fruit (1x), variant (1x).

child, son, boy, offspring, youth

child, son, boy

child, children

descendants

youth

Yeled is not not miscarriage nor still birth, it's a live child.

Is there a Hebrew word for miscarriage and stillborn? Yes and it is not Yeled.

Exodus 23: KJV

26 There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will fulfil.

The above now in the Hebrew lexicon:
שָׁכֹל shakol

The KJV translates Strongs H7921 in the following manner:bereave(10x),barren(2x), childless (2x), cast young(2x), cast a calf (1x), lost children(1x),rob of children(1x), deprived (1x), misc(5x).

שָׁכֹלshâkôl, shaw-kole'; a primitive root; properly, to miscarry, i.e. suffer abortion; by analogy, to bereave (literally or figuratively):—bereave (of children), barren, cast calf (fruit, young), be (make) childless, deprive, destroy, × expect, lose children, miscarry, rob of children, spoil.

So we can see shakol is not used in Exodus 21:22ff.

Yaled is alive; shakol is miscarriage.

And I have shown you that the passage refers solely to harm to the woman. The Hebrew of the passage is clear and it is how the passage has been interpreted for over 1000 years and yet here you are telling me that you have the right of it? I think not!

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · May 21, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
I don't know how a rapist can be charged with murder that was committed by a doctor. He did not decide whether the baby should live or die. But there is no reason to punish the doctor for what the father did.

The pro-life position is very simple. We don't believe that a woman have the right to decide whether their unborn child dies for the exact same reasons why they do not have the right to decide whether their born child dies. The same penalty would apply to a doctor who terminates the life of a born child will apply to the ones who terminate the life of an unborn child.

Calminian · May 21, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
The vote in Alabama. The fact that only men voted for the abortion ban there and the number of female representatives in the statehouse (including only 18 Senators) are widely noted by TV news reporters.

And they were voted into office by men and women. They are merely representatives.

And, anyway, so what? Why are men not allowed a say about this? Are you advocating sexism? Why do only women get to decide of unborn boys and girls can be murdered?

Calminian · May 21, 2019

kiwimac said:
And I have shown you that the passage refers solely to harm to the woman. The Hebrew of the passage is clear and it is how the passage has been interpreted for over 1000 years and yet here you are telling me that you have the right of it? I think not!

No, it actually refers to both the woman and fetus.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · May 21, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
The vote in Alabama. The fact that only men voted for the abortion ban there and the number of female representatives in the statehouse (including only 18 Senators) are widely noted by TV news reporters.

You do realize that the vast majority of those who are pro-life activists are women...right?

Calminian · May 21, 2019

No Username Found said:
You do realize that the vast majority of those who are pro-life activists are women...right?

I doubt it matters to most pro-legalized abortion proponents. They yell at pro-life women also.

That said, Jesus was a man and he was addressed as a person while inside the womb. I'm curious if his opinion matters.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · May 21, 2019

Calminian said:
That said, Jesus was a man and he was addressed as a person while inside the womb. I'm curious if his opinion matters.

That is a good point.

GodLovesCats · May 21, 2019

Calminian said:
And they were voted into office by men and women. They are merely representatives.

And, anyway, so what? Why are men not allowed a say about this? Are you advocating sexism? Why do only women get to decide of unborn boys and girls can be murdered?

They are representatives all right, but do not act like it. Alabamans are actively protesting the law at their state's Capitol and elsewhere in Montgomery. The respresentation is not helping women and children.

Only women have to put up with carrying a baby for 9 months.

GodLovesCats · May 21, 2019

Calminian said:
I doubt it matters to most pro-legalized abortion proponents. They yell at pro-life women also.

That said, Jesus was a man and he was addressed as a person while inside the womb. I'm curious if his opinion matters.

A totally non-Christian thing to say.

mark kennedy · May 21, 2019

Calminian said:
Mark, are you no longer voting for pro-abortion democrats? Are you finally seeing the light on this?

For the most part I don't vote, because I don't see a dimes worth of difference in the canidates. In Indiana it wouldn't matter anyway because it's always been dominated by hardcore conservatives. Usually when I vote It's a split ticket. Another reason I don't like to vote is it's exhausting to get fully informed.

The is one issue in a long list, It's even irrelavant to a lot of offices. Abortion is a court issue, state legislatures are much more involved in thesr days. I tend to favor moderates, regardless of their political atripes. I've been seeing hard right policy my whole life up close and really not impressed, but then again I don't care for liberal extremes either.

redleghunter · May 21, 2019

kiwimac said:
And I have shown you that the passage refers solely to harm to the woman. The Hebrew of the passage is clear and it is how the passage has been interpreted for over 1000 years and yet here you are telling me that you have the right of it? I think not!

Show me where the passage only speaks of the woman.

Calminian · May 21, 2019

mark kennedy said:
For the most part I don't vote, because I don't see a dimes worth of difference in the canidates.

You don't see a difference between life and death? You're not sure if an unborn baby is human? You don't see the difference between the judges the candidates will appoint?

mark kennedy said:
...Abortion is a court issue, state legislatures are much more involved in thesr days....

The executive branch appoints the judges who oversee the court. We vote for them. The president appoints to the SC. We vote for him. It's pretty simple on this issue, and the others as well.

Calminian · May 21, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
A totally non-Christian thing to say.

Why?

Yekcidmij · May 21, 2019

kiwimac said:
The Exodus passage refers solely to harm to the woman not the foetus.

This is a side note, but I also think it's weird that everyone opts to speak Latin and call the unborn baby a "fetus" rather than using the definition of fetus:

an unborn offspring of a mammal, in particular an unborn human baby more than eight weeks after conception.

Why not say "unborn human baby" instead of "feotus?"

Calminian · May 21, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
They are representatives all right, but do not act like it. Alabamans are actively protesting the law at their state's Capitol and elsewhere in Montgomery. The respresentation is not helping women and children.

Only women have to put up with carrying a baby for 9 months.

They were voted in by women and men who knew their positions on abortion. And men and women are praising them for following through and protecting the most innocent of us.

And many women don't abhor pregnancy as you claim. Seems very presumptuous on your part to accuse them of having to "put up" with it. Most women don't have this terrible attitude toward their children.

GodLovesCats · May 21, 2019

I did not say women have a terrible attitude toward their children or that most women hate pregnancy. It is the fact that girls and women are forced to stay pregnant after telling men not to have sex with them - which has nothing to do with whether they want to have kids later or not.

GodLovesCats · May 21, 2019

Calminian said:
Why?

"Was" in that phrase means there was no Resurrection.

Calminian · May 21, 2019

redleghunter said:
Show me where the passage only speaks of the woman.

Ex. 21:22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

They key is the Hebrew word for "gives birth prematurely." The word here simply means to go out, and if the child goes out but there is no injury, there is merely a fine. This does not imply miscarriage which today means the child died. That is serous today, and was even more serious in ANE culture. They would not just blow that off and pay some small fine. Nor would they describe that as merely going out. The implication is that the child was not harmed, and that the family has been inconvenienced.

And if there is harm, it primarily pertains to the baby, as babies are vulnerable in the womb (not that our culture cares). That why the example refers to a pregnant woman and not just any woman who is not pregnant.

Calminian · May 21, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
I did not say women have a terrible attitude toward their children or that most women hate pregnancy. It is the fact that girls and women are forced to stay pregnant after telling men not to have sex with them - which has nothing to do with whether they want to have kids later or not.

Again, you pick a very rare incident to make your point. Are you saying you're against all abortions that are not the result of rape?

Majority of Americans say heartbeat abortion bans are not too restrictive

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