The Prophetic Word

Douggg said:

I would refine that a little bit, to abide in our soul - forever.



John could not have been called up to heaven except by Jesus being there.

How did the 24 elders get to be present at the throne in heaven, if Jesus did not arrive there before them?

It doesn't say directly but I think Jesus appeared to John and them, to open the seals by coming out from the blinding glory of God's throne.

Click to expand...

John could not have been called up to heaven except by Jesus being there. OF COURSE Jesus was there. HE called John up. But the moment John arrived in heaven, He began to see a VISION.

How did the 24 elders get to be present at the throne in heaven, if Jesus did not arrive there before them? OF COURSE Jesus arrived there before. John was called up to heaven around 95 AD. John saw this vision in 95 AD. But inside a vision, God can do anything. It is a good question and I have pondered it much. We know that when Jesus rose, He also rose some of the Old Testament saints. Could it be He rose up the elders? I suspect He did. He may have risen up more than 24. Some may have lingered on earth while the elders rose up to heaven to be represented by what John saw in the vision.

It doesn't say directly but I think Jesus appeared to John and them, to open the seals by coming out from the blinding glory of God's throne.

The opening of the seals was very much a part of the vision. It was not reality for some of then seals are future. The trumpets are future.

God is instructing us - making a point - in these two chapters: setting the context of the book and the seals. He is establishing the TIMING of the opening of the first seals. Many people, however, ignore the context and imagine the first seal is future.

iamlamad said:

But inside a vision, God can do anything.

Click to expand...

But it is not saying in the text that Jesus arrived from earth to be in heaven at that moment. The elders would not have been there if Jesus Himself was not there as well, before them.

Jesus was already there because one elders told John to weep not.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Douggg said:

But it is not saying in the text that Jesus arrived from earth to be in heaven at that moment. The elders would not have been there if Jesus Himself was not there as well, before them.

Jesus was already there because one elders told John to weep not.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Click to expand...

I do not argue about the elders: clearly they are there. The truth is, no one knows who the elder are or when they got there! Anything about the elders is only guess work. I personally would not form doctrine from the elders. Note carefully in verse 6, the previous verses have been leading up to it: Jesus NOT SEEN there (because He was still on earth or under the earth), Jesus NOT found worthy to open the seals (because He had not yet risen from the dead) , then finally IS found worthy (something happened - but what? He rose from the dead), and finally, Jesus suddenly appears and the Holy Spirit sent down. This is to set the timing for the first seal. As soon as Jesus ascended, He took the book and began opening the seals.

To me this gives us a very clear picture of TIMING. We KNOW that for the 32 years Jesus was on the earth, He was NOT in heaven. We know that He ascended right after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not YET ascended. In other words, we can confirm what these two chapters are showing us in other verses in the bible.

The importance of verse 5 above is that Jesus prevailed to open the book, not who told John.

iamlamad said:

Jesus NOT SEEN there (because He was still on earth or under the earth)

Click to expand...

Jesus was not seen by John. The elders who were there because Jesus Himself was there before they could be there, told John not to weep. Because they knew Jesus was worthy to unseal the book.

Just because Jesus was not right in front of John, doesn't mean that Jesus was not there in heaven the whole time, and was Who called John up.

Jesus had to be there in order for the 24 elders to be there.

Douggg said:

Jesus was not seen by John. The elders who were there because Jesus Himself was there before they could be there, told John not to weep. Because they knew Jesus was worthy to unseal the book.

Just because Jesus was not right in front of John, doesn't mean that Jesus was not there in heaven the whole time, and was Who called John up.

Jesus had to be there in order for the 24 elders to be there.

Click to expand...

You can believe that if you choose, but the point GOD was making was that IF Jesus had been there, He would have been seen at the right hand of the Father - where Stephen saw Him. John NOT seeing Him is telling us He was not there. That is backed up by the fact that Jesus was NOT FOUND WORTHY to open the seals in that first search John watched.

All this is the context of the first seal: it is so the reader will know the first seal was opened around 32 AD.

Did the angels doing the searching know they were searching for the Son of Man? I think not. They were searching for a man, not an angel. But since John does not tell us, we don't know for sure. What we do know is that they searched and ended that search in failure.