Theory on the origin of evil

The Righterzpen

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Respectfully, you are forgetting that there indeed is a consciousness of creation in heaven known as angels. Scripture indicates that angels sang and shouted the day the earth was created. Also evil began in heaven with Lucifer, a son of the morning, and where vainglory first manifests in the creation.

:oldthumbsup:

Good point that angels apparently were created before "carbon based life". I'd never "caught that" in Genesis before you brought it up here.

This statement is to state what God's manifold purpose for the creation is from the beginning to the end, so as to see a big picture of the creation that includes all dispensation of time and times as a means to an end.

Yes, God is the Alpha and Omega. He and His plan "encapsulate" all of creation.

Again, the angels are created things with the capacity to become unthankful.

Agreed - yet "darkness upon the face of the deep" still has to have predated them. We know this because there was a time before any of them fell. God did not create anything "evil". God by nature is incapable of doing that.

Respectfully, the verse says the creation was made subject to vanity (Void of Truth/knowledge of God). Man's transgression was prompted by Satan's cunning lie which appealed to vanity and subtly introduced a false and corrupt image of god.

:oldthumbsup:

Good "working description" of the fall.
 
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eleos1954

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You misunderstand election, predestination and what Calvin coined as "total depravity", "irresistible grace" and "perseverance of the saints".

Everything God created bore the potential to be corrupted and therefore is not "perfect" as to being incorruptible. The only created entity that was "perfect" was Jesus Christ.

Jesus wasn't created ... He is God incarnate and always has been.

Satan was cast out of heaven just before Jesus commenced the "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth." This followed upon the last day (Tuesday before the cross) that He preached in the temple. John 12:31

Sin entered the world (earth) through satan when he was cast down from heaven.

And thus is the reason you no longer have a "free will". You're will does not act independent of your fallen nature or your sin.

John 7:17

17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Joshua 24:15
15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve ...


In reality, Jesus was the only human who ever fully had a free will; because His will was directed by the Divine aspect of His personhood. Adam's will was only "probationally free"; because he was not incorruptible.

This goes back to choice ... corruption entered into the human race because of the choice made by Adam not to obey God.

Only by the choice of Christ. He did not have to redeem any of us.

This is true ... He chose to lay His life down for us.

One of the consequences of Adam's disobedience was the severance of human probational fellowship with God. Thus is why we are dead in trespass and sin with no hope of making ourselves spiritually alive. That is solely a Divine act of God.

The consequence of Adam's disobedience ... consequence of a choice made.

"Satan was cast out of heaven just before Jesus commenced the "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth." This followed upon the last day (Tuesday before the cross) that He preached in the temple. John 12:31"

Satan stole the position which rightfully belonged to Adam who was the legitimate
representative of the planet. He usurped Adam’s rightful throne. This is the reason why Jesus called Satan “the ruler of this world” John 12:31. When Adam chose to obey Satan, he became Satan’s subject for we are subjects of the master whom we choose to obey Romans 6:16


Judgement (condemnation) for satan occurred at the cross.

John 16:11

and about judgment, because the prince of this world (satan) now stands condemned.
 
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childeye 2

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:oldthumbsup:
Agreed - yet "darkness upon the face of the deep" still has to have predated them. We know this because there was a time before any of them fell. God did not create anything "evil". God by nature is incapable of doing that.
Respectfully, the darkness upon the face of the deep is about earth's purpose in the creation, so it did not predate them. We should consider that the angels are watching something about to be played out in a temporal reality on earth that will inform them of Who God is and also inform them of who they are in relation to Him. Therefore the darkness on the face of the deep and God's Spirit moving on the face of the waters means that God is going to reveal His Light in the midst of a darkness so as to cause the created to worship Him in Spirit and Truth through the revelation. What will be revealed in the deep is God Himself.

The darkness is not the evil, it is the absence of God's Light, the knowledge of God as pertains to the value of His Spiritual Person and Character. The evil is the product of vanity in the creation which occurs in the void of this Light/knowledge. For example, how did Satan fall? Because he became vain due to his beauty in contrast to others. Had he been thankful to God for the beauty rather than counting himself better than others in vainglory (as if he deserved it or earned it), there would have been no fall from his high place. His words indicate that he assumed God was worshipped because God had the greater power rather than God was the goodness.

Remember that the angels fell because they left their former stations in an misinformed envy of those lower than themselves. Hence Satan despised the fact that Adam was content in his station under God while Satan was not, even though Satan was higher than Adam.
 
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Cis.jd

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The desire for pleasure isn't sin. Failure to glorify God in the pursuit of pleasure by transgression, is what sin is. And this is why sin in born in the heart before it ever becomes manifest in the real world. The chief end of man is to glorify God; so what ever isn't of faith is sin. And this is why if you bring a temptation to God for His assistance, He honored that because you seek to glorify Him.

Jesus did this and this is how he (in human nature) overcame temptation. This is why He says to Satan "You shall worship God alone!" Now Jesus had a particular advantage that we don't in that He had a Divine nature; but the unique manner in which Christ was created does not absolve us of our guilt when we do disobey.

Now "evil" as it pertains to our personal sin does manifest from our own hearts. Yet "evil" (or maybe rather "darkness") preexisted our existence.

Follow me here?

Here is one question I have. If Satan -this evil being- was an angel who fell (note the word) from heaven.. and our planet became this flawed-sinful habitat because Adam and Eve brought it in.. then why didn't heaven change and become just as flawed?

Also, doesn't Satan rebelling and falling mean that sinning is possible in heaven? If that is the case then how do we know that other angels like gabriel, saints like Peter, Paul and Mary, or people we knew are still up there when sin can actually be committed in heaven?

Also, that fall. Why would angels just fall to earth exactly. Especially since this solar system of ours is so huge and has about 8 other planets? How did they fall exactly to this planet? Unless the writers of this story thought the earth was flat and heaven was just at our skies then i just don't get the whole entering of our earth.

I can go on and on as to how Satan makes no sense, and contradicts too many christian-theological beliefs.
 
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1213

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… In that study, it appeared to me that evil was already present from the point that God began the creation process. I'd thought that it may have even predated creation itself. From a little closer look at this word / phrase "in the beginning" though it seems that from the very commencement of any action of God - evil appeared.

I think evil is nothing, it is lack of good. If good doesn’t exists, then there is emptiness and that emptiness, or darkness is called evil. But this doesn’t mean that all darkness or emptiness is evil. Evil is possible when good (God) is rejected, or good is not present. If we believe God has always been, then also good has always been. Evil becomes possible after God allowed Him to be rejected.

... "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."…

I think that is not necessary a fact, especially in spiritual level.
 
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childeye 2

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Will you elaborate?
It cannot ever be proven that what is eternal is eternal. Likewise it cannot ever be proven that what is Holy is Holy. Hence all things are built on faith/trust that the Eternal is Holy and trustworthy. If the created thing has a corrupt image of god the created thing becomes corrupt and dies.
 
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BrotherD

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Origins of Evil Theory

I've often wondered about the origins of evil? Many church fathers and people in Christian circles believe that evil began with Satan. This may be true, depending on your definition of "Satan"; but if we look closely at the first few verses of Genesis, we'll see that this can not be. If we believe Satan is a fallen angel; (as much of church history has taught) than we know for a fact that evil did not begin with him, since it was present before angels were ever created. Darkness (destruction) was "upon the face of the deep" from the first time God had uttered "Let there be light."

The first words of Genesis start out with "In the beginning". This phrase is in "construct state" and has a "Beth" prefixed preposition to it. The construct state declares that the state of one noun is dependent upon the action of another. In this case the state of heaven and earth are dependent upon the action of God. (Yeah, I know that's an "uh duh" type of observation.) Now as for the Beth prefixed preposition, it indicates the location or instrumentality of the action. So in other words, the action of what happened "in the beginning" began with God. (Yeah, I know; another "no brainer".) This is important to understand though, because what it is really saying is that all subsequent happenings (including the presence of evil) did not exist before the beginning!

In a prior study I did concerning what had occurred "in the beginning"; I'd stated that I didn't know where evil came from. (I'm still not sure I know?) In that study, it appeared to me that evil was already present from the point that God began the creation process. I'd thought that it may have even predated creation itself. From a little closer look at this word / phrase "in the beginning" though it seems that from the very commencement of any action of God - evil appeared.

Interesting - now why is that?

Here is another point where I'm not sure I have the answer to this question but I'm gonna give it a crack with a theory that's been kicking around in my head here. Now admittedly, this theory isn't "my theory" - no, it's actually part of physics. "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Now let's back up here from "the beginning" to before the beginning. Before any action of creating ever commenced; there eternally existed God. No action brought God into existence. He was just always ...there! So because there was no "action" that created God; there was no "reaction" to His existence. He as an entity is "something" and the opposite of "something" is "nothing". So, in eternity, besides God there was nothing and so any opposite of God that would have "existed" - did so in theory only.

Of course being omniscient; God knew this. He knew that as soon as He "did" something; there would be an equal and opposite reaction to what ever He did. He knew that what ever action He took; it would bring this theoretical opposite of Him into reality. (Because to every action is an equal and opposite reaction.) This is what I believe was the knowledge of good and evil that God possessed.

So, for as much as an oxymoron as this is going to sound like: this created a "dilemma" for God. He had to come up with a plan to adequately compensate for the opposite that would come as a result of His action. Now God being good, holy, righteous, just etc - the opposite of such would be evil, sin, wickedness, injustice etc. So how could God overcome this "reaction"? Well, since God is eternally existent; it would seem to me that His incorporating His own presence into His original action (i.e. being incarnated into His own creation, sending His Spirit etc.) does not create another "reaction" because God always existed.

So thus is the nuts and bolts of my "scientific" theory. (Admittedly, likely still needs some refining!) Evil was inherent in the act of creation itself because it was the opposite reaction to God's action. Could God have created a world where there would be no reaction to His action? I don't know; maybe on some other dimension or level He has? As for us though and what we understand of our physical universe; we could not exist without these contrasting duel addition to this though; this theory also lends explanation to why God could create something He knew was going to fall and still legitimately call it good. (Which the "good" in Hebrew really means "pleasant". I.E. God was happy with what He'd made. It "pleased" Him; which there is another whole dimension to that application - which maybe I'll tackle later.) Any how; ultimately God is not responsible for the fall because He did not create evil; nor did He plant within man the seed that would lead to transgression. All that transpired was a byproduct of the act of creation itself.

The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil

What of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil than? The tree was just the vehicle that clued man into what was already present in his world. It simply opened the door to the knowledge of both good and evil; but it didn't create either! Remember it's the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"; not the "tree of good and evil".

The tree was necessary for that knowledge though; and that knowledge was necessary in order for humanity to truly know God. You see it was still possible for Adam and Eve to behave in ways that displeased God; they just had no knowledge of it because they had no commandments. The only instruction they'd had from God was to take care of the garden and not to eat the fruit off this tree. See "evil" had entered into the world even though sin had not, because sin is disobedience to God! So long as Adam and Eve didn't disobey; sin didn't enter, even though "evil" was still present.

Kinda weird huh

In regards to sin itself. Even if there was no tree; God would eventually given them a commandment that they wouldn't have kept. Think of all the trouble a person could get themselves into out of sheer ignorance. God is not simply going to sit back and ignore actions that offend Him. So, as long as they obeyed; the knowledge of any offense of action they may have done was hidden from them. As far as any offenses they'd committed against God? Up until the point they actually disobeyed; apparently they had done (or failed to do) something that warranted God to tell them to care for the garden. Once He had instructed them to do so; obviously they obeyed, so still sin hadn't entered.

The word "good" in Genesis:

OK, now that we know "good" in Genesis didn't mean "unable to be corrupted". What did it mean? "Now I didn't really plan on putting "this" "here" but it's a good place for it. I'll explain what the word "good" means in the Hebrew and how the applied to Genesis and even the current underpinnings of how this creation is constructed.

This word "good" basically means "pleasing"; although pleasing in a natural way, not so in the connotation of lust or perverse desire for something. It's the same word used to describe Abraham's wife Sarah; she was "beautiful" she was "pleasant (or pleasing) to look at". She appealed to other men as an object of physical beauty. This word, or derivatives there of; is used in description of attractive men too and even other living things; i.e. physical qualities that would make them attractive - like health, strength, vigor, vitality of complexion / hair etc.

We see this concept of "good / pleasing" being inherent in the biology of the physical world. Some researchers at one point did an international study to come up with a composite of what human beings considered to be physically attractive or desirable in other human beings. The point of the study was to see if there was an underlying consistency in who people would consider to be the opposite parent to their individual future offspring. Of course, on account of the nature of this study - it only included heterosexual individuals of a probable reproductive age.

The questions were posed with line drawings of human forms and the findings were interesting. The consensus was that people preferred a reproductive mate that was not too fat or too thin, who's body was symmetrically proportional and who's skin and hair had a healthy appearance. The next most important attribute for both genders was the appearance of the face and head. Was the face symmetrical and did the head appear to have the proper skull capacity to be associated with good intelligence. Another attribute that was some what of a surprise to the researchers, yet none the less important to both genders was the appearance of a person's hands. Hands were generally thought of in relation to a person's propensity to be industrious.

Contrary to what the western fashion industry portrays to us; men generally were not attracted to women who were too much taller than they, who's breasts were either too large or too small and who's hips appeared too narrow. Both these portions of anatomy were considered vital to reproductive capacity: a pelvis who's breadth was adequate to safely deliver a baby and breasts that would produce the appropriate amount of milk to feed the child. The "universal ratio" came out to be an hour glass figure where the waist was roughly 10 inches smaller than the bust and hips.

For women, proportion was also of notable interest. Women ranked higher in considering the size and shape of a man's head as intelligence was generally believed to be related to temperament. (An ill-tempered strong man doesn't make a good mate.) That ranked just as high for women as a man who's body appeared to be healthy and physically fit. The "ideal shape" for men was the diamond (or kite) shape; head, neck, shoulders being the top of the diamond and chest, abdomen, hips being the bottom. Interestingly enough, even in industrial societies the size and shape of man's pelvis were considered important too. Even though women in industrial societies couldn't identify why a man's ability to run well seemed important; they considered it to be an attractive attribute. In hunter gatherer type societies - obviously this was attributed to a man's ability to catch food.

Now as for the reproductive attractiveness of people who have less than perfect bodies; this is where personality became much more important. This was especially true of people born with handicapping genetic defects. Here is where perseverance and the development of a specific skill set became vital to these individuals' survival.

So as interesting as all this research was - what does it have to do with the word "good" in Genesis? It goes to show us that what we find to be naturally "pleasing" or "attractive" is inherent in the make up of creation itself. Our inclinations and natural drives toward these things are there in us because they first existed in God. The good pleasure of God was made inherent in the world He created. (It's reflected in the reproductive process of every thing on this planet.) What is "good" gives us joy, just as the creation God had made gave Him pleasure. This goodness and joy we see extended even in areas of our lives that have nothing to do with our own sexuality. We find good pleasure in our children, our pets, our friends and family, our hobbies, the outdoors - what ever gives us pleasure.

Of course there is a "flip side" to this too. Our "good pleasure" can be corrupted into something perverse. This is where there is addiction to substances, sexual behavior, the pursuit of wealth or power and prestige. None of these things (drugs, alcohol, sex, money, authority, respect) are evil in and of themselves; but the corrupted desire for them is. This corrupted desire is what makes evil apparent in this world. Born out of corrupted desires comes hatred, jealousy, malice, envy, strife, prejudice, greed etc. Their manifest deeds being: criminal violence, theft, lies, unjust treatment, inequality, immoral behavior etc. These culminate in death and destruction; the final say of it all being the wrath of God.

The knowledge of good and evil had a profound impact upon this universe!

We must always look to the scriptures for answers.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

He created evil, but he cannot sin. He also gave everybody free will. He wouldn't be a loving God if he forced us to worship him.
 
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His student

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Reason would have it that if the heavens and earth are "finished" as is declared in Genesis - this would include the "3rd heaven".
I agree. That’s what I said. The 3rd heaven was created sometime before the physical universe was created.
At the point the 2nd person of the Trinity was incarnated, that brought the "created thing" into God's personal existence. And so thus from now into all eternity, part of the created is a permeant part of God's being. Thus the need to "create" a 3rd heaven to "accommodate" God Himself.
That say nothing concerning when the 3rd heaven was created.
Part of the omniscience of God, obviously would be knowledge of the laws of physics. Yet until God "creates" something - those laws are theory only (just as evil is theory only until something is created).
Agreed.
Is "darkness" the same thing as "evil" or are they defined by "cause" and "manifestation"? "Evil" is a manifestation of "darkness" enacted upon the physical world once a creature disobeys.
I don’t believe that darkness is the same thing as evil.

Darkness needs no cause. It is simply the absence of light.
"Physics" in a physical universe become reality as soon as God "does" something. They (like evil) are a byproduct of God's action.
Agreed.
Agreed. Yet the creation of this universe was indeed God's "initial go around". There was not another universe that predated this one. (Which I think you would agree with.)
Not another physical universe perhaps. But the 3rd heaven is in the spirit realm and not the physical.
If God is Triune - the Holy Ghost can not be a "by product" because He is eternally existence just as the Father and Son are. If He were a "by product" of "mutual love" than He would be "created" by the "action" of mutual love. Love is an attribute of God's being, not something He does.
Of course He’s eternally existent.

Being eternally “generated” is not the same as being created.

The Spirit is said to proceed from the Father and He is said to proceed from the Son. Make of it what you will.
Therefore we have no idea (and never will) what being omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal and immortal living in glory with two other entities who are of the fullness of what ever God is - would be like.
If you hadn’t have said “and never will” I might agree with you.

“For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.” 1 Corinthians 13:12
That knowledge is above our pay grades. LOL
Perhaps not above your future pay grade.:)
The deeds believers perform were preordained from the foundations of the world because they are the works of God. Anyone who assigns a portion of this unto his own will for the sake of getting a reward, at the very least misunderstands the power of God's sovereignty. For in the end the crowns (rewards) are cast back at His feet for the understanding that is was by His power these works were accomplished to begin with.
Agreed.
As painful as this life is for any of us; our liking or disliking of the role played, really has no bearing on the plan. The disposition of the believer ultimately accepts that. This is not fatalism though, because the acceptance of the will is born out of love and gratitude for redemption we know we don't deserve.
Agreed.

In speaking to another person here you said:
Good point that angels apparently were created before "carbon based life". I'd never "caught that" in Genesis before you brought it up here.
I’m not sure why that would be since I have pointed it out in my previous post..
 
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Tone

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Here is one question I have. If Satan -this evil being- was an angel who fell (note the word) from heaven.. and our planet became this flawed-sinful habitat because Adam and Eve brought it in.. then why didn't heaven change and become just as flawed?

Also, doesn't Satan rebelling and falling mean that sinning is possible in heaven? If that is the case then how do we know that other angels like gabriel, saints like Peter, Paul and Mary, or people we knew are still up there when sin can actually be committed in heaven?

Maybe his sin wasn't complete until the cross...when he and his minions thought they were actually gonna get away with killing Him.

*Universe's Dumbest Criminals...
 
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The Righterzpen

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it has every bit of bearing on the text. What was written or spoken 3500 years ago to an Israelite audience had a purpose and meaning and this meaning is important when understanding it today, this is called a good exegesis. How we apply the text is abstract and from HS inspiration but that's not necessarily the meaning of the text which remains the same as it did 3500 years ago, especially when we are talking about between the line assertions.

Except the Scripture tells us to interpret it against itself not against what an ancient culture thought of it. Isaiah 28:10+

To start "beginning" is a translated word so if you want to grasp the true meaning you would have to study ancient Hebrew and with that study must come a firm grasp on how these words were understood. "beginning" is a good translation because English is a very abstract language and it does not read well when it's just full of strict concretes like "at the summit God fatten the skies and the land" this doesn't make sense to use because we don't think this way so it would be fruitless and confusing. But if we are to enter into the unwritten thoughts of the account we must enter into the written thoughts first and give them high value, not our superimposed abstract ideas.

We in this day and age have access to the acquisition of information that no other generation has EVER had in the past! That is a HUGE blessing.

Yet, if what you say is true, than anyone who does not have the education or access to the ancient texts could not be saved and this is not true! Knowledge of Greek and Hebrew doesn't save anyone. God does.

Let us not be vain in our gifted position of 21st century technology.

Western thinkers think in step logic where each thought progresses to the next until a conclusion is made without conflicts. You seem to be superimposing your western thinking over the creation account looking at day 1 leading to day 2 leading to day 3... but this is not how the account is actually written.

And Praise the Lord because God transcends culture and time I can do this.

Who created the formless universe or the darkness? Well the text doesn't address this but that's not the point of the text. You're trying to force something in the text to reconcile it to fit your abstract step logic world view by saying "the very commencement of any action of God - evil appeared." (very step logic based) this may very well be true but this has nothing to do with the text. The text is not about how the darkness came, there simply was darkness and God spoke light into it. This points to not only creation through God but salvation through God as well because he still speaks light into the darkness today in all believers.

The obvious answer to "who created formless universe" is "God".

Where did the darkness come from? That is the question this theory is addressing.

All truth still comes from God, whether it's in the form of "step logic" or "block logic", "scientific method" or what ever doesn't matter.

"Step logic has nothing to do with the text." - according to who?

If God uses "step logic", why would that automatically be wrong to use as a method of Scriptural research? "Step logic" does not negate what you are saying about salvation being attested to in the text. There's a lot of truth buried in the Bible and this lends itself to a variety of applications to uncover it.
 
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Tone

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I think evil is nothing, it is lack of good. If good doesn’t exists, then there is emptiness and that emptiness, or darkness is called evil. But this doesn’t mean that all darkness or emptiness is evil. Evil is possible when good (God) is rejected, or good is not present. If we believe God has always been, then also good has always been. Evil becomes possible after God allowed Him to be rejected.

Reminds me of the dark army of:


They weren't necessarily evil, just not in the light...awaiting release...

*Yeah, I'm a Ringie
 
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Tone

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It cannot ever be proven that what is eternal is eternal. Likewise it cannot ever be proven that what is Holy is Holy. Hence all things are built on faith/trust that the Eternal is Holy and trustworthy. If the created thing has a corrupt image of god the created thing becomes corrupt and dies.

Can never be proven in time...maybe...?

*Scripture is proof enough, for me though...
 
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Tone

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"Physics" in a physical universe become reality as soon as God "does" something. They (like evil) are a byproduct of God's action.

Maybe these are the angels...?
 
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His student

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That was a rather longish answer to a
About ¼ as long and quit readable judging by my responses. :)
If God is all-good,,,,how does He have evil in Him to think about?
He doesn’t – nor did I say He did. I thought I covered that.:scratch:

Oh wait – here it is:
One of those attributes is His inherent "knowledge of good and evil". That is - not evil itself but the "knowledge" of evil as well as good.
You're getting your theology into the discussion... We know God is sovereign and will do what He wishes to do. Also you have free will in quotation marks so you theology is coming through even there.
How can a person not consider and present their theology when they’re talking about the source of evil? When talking about something in the politics’ portion of the forum perhaps. But not in a section that has “theology” in it’s very title.

I always put “free will” in quotes when talking theology.. The reason is quite simple.

So long as donkeys speak Hebrew, Caiaphas prophesies the words of God, and men move by the Holy Spirit write the very words of God – in fact, so long as we live and move and have being in God - “free will” will always be relative.

Whatever theological bent you see coming through that is simply the facts of life according to the scriptures.
So if God knew the consequences,,WHY did He create these beings (us) who would have to suffer so much?
That’s a subject to be considered by every Christian I suppose. I already gave you my opinion on the matter.
We all know God is sovereign -- not just you --- but is He also a wicked and mean God?
Some not so much apparently.

No – He is not a wicked and mean God. Did someone say He was?
I don't know any theology that teaches God is ONLY a just God with little concern for His beings...except one.
Which one would that be?
If God thinks something...does it happen?
No – God sends forth His Word to accomplish what so ever He desires to be done.

I thought I covered that.
Flaws galore.
Flaws – undoubtedly – but you haven’t pointed any of them out.
We all know God is sovereign -- not just you --- but is He also a wicked and mean God? .
Some more than others apparently.
..but is He also a wicked and mean God? Most of us would say NO. .
No one, with the exception of Satan perhaps, would say that God is wicked and mean.
God IS LOVE…God IS MERCIFUL……..God IS JUST……….God IS HOLY. .
Of course. Did someone say otherwise?

Look –although the OP did, I haven’t chosen to list any theological group that I might be affiliated with.

But – having been around the block a few times here in the forum – judging by your belligerent attitude, I believe you are an anti-Calvinist and you assumed that I am a Calvinist because I referenced the “elect of God” in my post as well as the before mentioned “sovereignty” word.

If this is the case – let me put your mind to rest. I am not a Calvinist. God’s elect is a term God uses in the scriptures to describe His people. It is not something that Calvinists or any other group made up.

Nor is the sovereignty of God something which is in the theology of Calvinists only. As you so rightly pointed out, everyone believes in the sovereignty of God.

But as I so rightly pointed out – apparently some more than others.
 
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Tone

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About ¼ as long and quit readable judging by my responses. :)

He doesn’t – nor did I say He did. I thought I covered that.:scratch:

Oh wait – here it is:


How can a person not consider and present their theology when they’re talking about the source of evil? When talking about something in the politics’ portion of the forum perhaps. But not in a section that has “theology” in it’s very title.

I always put “free will” in quotes when talking theology.. The reason is quite simple.

So long as donkeys speak Hebrew, Caiaphas prophesies the words of God, and men move by the Holy Spirit write the very words of God – in fact, so long as we live and move and have being in God - “free will” will always be relative.

Whatever theological bent you see coming through that is simply the facts of life according to the scriptures.

That’s a subject to be considered by every Christian I suppose. I already gave you my opinion on the matter.

Some not so much apparently.

No – He is not a wicked and mean God. Did someone say He was?

Which one would that be?

No – God sends forth His Word to accomplish what so ever He desires to be done.

I thought I covered that.

Flaws – undoubtedly – but you haven’t pointed any of them out.

Some more than others apparently.

No one, with the exception of Satan perhaps, would say that God is wicked and mean.

Of course. Did someone say otherwise?

Look –although the OP did, I haven’t chosen to list any theological group that I might be affiliated with.

But – having been around the block a few times here in the forum – judging by your belligerent attitude, I believe you are an anti-Calvinist and you assumed that I am a Calvinist because I referenced the “elect of God” in my post as well as the before mentioned “sovereignty” word.

If this is the case – let me put your mind to rest. I am not a Calvinist. God’s elect is a term God uses in the scriptures to describe His people. It is not something that Calvinists or any other group made up.

Nor is the sovereignty of God something which is in the theology of Calvinists only. As you so rightly pointed out, everyone believes in the sovereignty of God.

But as I so rightly pointed out – apparently some more than others.

:satisfied:
 
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The Righterzpen

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I don’t believe that darkness is the same thing as evil.

Darkness needs no cause. It is simply the absence of light.

You very well may be correct that "darkness" is not the same as "evil" if evil is simply what comes to be the physical manifestation of darkness in the world.

Darkness has to have a cause because before God created anything, darkness did not exist. There is no shadow of turning in God, so darkness had to come from somewhere; as a result of / within the context of the created order.

This has to be the case because if one claims it is not; the only thing that can mean is that it was inherent in God; and THAT is heresy.

But the 3rd heaven is in the spirit realm and not the physical.

Yet spiritual entities still have substance because they are created things. Obviously they don't have the same substance as carbon based life has; but angels were not eternally existent either, so thus the reason for a 3rd heaven.

Now what you say about angels watching the creation of earth; (I think it was you who said that; but may not have been?) in order to have God's glory demonstrated to them in the creation of life. This would only make applicable sense if they were not aware they were created also. I'm pretty sure that isn't the case though.

Angels being categorically different than humans, both in their knowledge as well as the essence of what they are; on top of the fact that they are not redeemable raises some interesting questions about these differences. That though, would be the subject of another thread.

Being eternally “generated” is not the same as being created.

Well then you would need to define what this means.

The Spirit is said to proceed from the Father and He is said to proceed from the Son. Make of it what you will.

I looked this up: It's John 15:26 - when the comforter has come whom I will send unto you from the Father....

"from" (the Father) is a term of proximity not "generation". The Father "sent" the Son. The Son was "conceived" by the Spirit. They work in conjunction but are separate persons.

If you hadn’t have said “and never will” I might agree with you.

“For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.” 1 Corinthians 13:12

The reason I say we never will, is because it is impossible for us to "become God". It's not like we get absorbed into this cosmic river that is "God" and therefore we become one in the same.

"I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." is not talking about the essence of what God is as an entity. Note it says "I shall know fully." but does not define "know what" fully, other than "as I am known". Because we are created entities there is a limit to the fullness of the knowledge that we are known; and these limits are because we are created.

Now the second person of the Trinity shares our "createdness"; and so we shall fully know Him in His createdness as He knows us in our createdness. Because we are created, we do not have the capacity to know God in His eternal essence.

Follow me here?

I’m not sure why that would be since I have pointed it out in my previous post..

May be wording? Sometimes something strikes us a certain way because of our own personal identification of use of language. There are speech pattern similarities. Sometimes it's just as simple of a matter of didn't catch what they were saying because I'm hungry, tired, the dog is barking, the phone rang, my kid is screaming about lute lamas on Fortnight - etc. - LOL - any variety or combination of such factors can cause one to not recognize what another is saying. Don't take it personally.
 
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The Righterzpen

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We must always look to the scriptures for answers.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

He created evil, but he cannot sin. He also gave everybody free will. He wouldn't be a loving God if he forced us to worship him.

Please refer back to posts #176 and #177. These verses were addressed there.
 
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GodsGrace101

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From what ever point the "beginning" of what God did - "commenced" - "evil" came from the point of "theoretical knowledge" into reality. This was a reaction to what God "did", but not to what God "is". Do you see the difference?

God as the Creator is far more subtenant than the "evil" that came about as a reaction to His action. This is why this is not "duelist" because the "forces" are not equal. Evil's influence is confined to the corruptible creation and this is why God conquered it. He is greater than all.

And from the language in Genesis, this happened before the earth was "formed" and "un-void".

You follow me?
Yes, I follow you.
I know you're not speaking about dualism.

If evil came about as a reaction to what God did...wouldn't that mean that evil came from NOTHING?

I think that no matter how you stir the soup, evil will never come out of it.

I just think we can't know...but the conversations about this is always interesting.
 
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The way I view it is, God created all the Angels, including Lucifer, and similar to the creation of man, endowed them with a will, not an autonomous will, but neither a morally perfect will, perfect as in immutable. So there was a freedom to turn, and for reason unknown, Lucifer the Prince of Angels turned and plotted against his Creator, a coo, and a third of the Angels followed him, and as a result were cast out of Heaven. I know this is a simple understanding, but I am content to leave it here. I think most (excluding the will discussion) of this is confirmed from prophecies in the book of Isaiah. The most difficult part which I do not understand is why, why did God knowingly create Lucifer and the Angels who would rebel? Did they really have a "chance" to do otherwise? If they did, they could have proved the knowledge of God to be false, and I'll let you follow the rabbit down that hole.
You bring up some points which are going to be problematic.

God created the angels, of which one of them turned out to be the enemy. How could God...who is perfect...create something that is NOT perfect? This is a problem. Man makes imperfect things because he has the sin nature in him and this is passed on to everything he makes..even nature has sin in it as per Romans 8:19-22 ...all of creation waits eagerly for the redemption.

I DO believe God created us to have a libertarian free will...the problem still exists: we have free will to choose between two moral choices: One of them is good, and the other one is evil (or sinful)...where did the second choice come from?

It's apparent that evil existed BEFORE God created the angels and Lucifer...THIS is the problem faced by Christianity.

And IF the angels did NOT have a chance,,,then we are definitely stating that God created evil.

Now, in the O.T. (Isaiah 45) it states that God created everything even evil (calamity). We can attribute this to the fact that the O.T. population attributed everything to God...both the good and the bad.

God revealed Himself in different ways and in different times.

I've followed the rabbit down many trails and they all end up with a big sign that says: No Answer Here.
 
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