The pre-tribulation rapture

BABerean2 · Apr 21, 2019

SeventyOne said:
The rapture isn't His second coming. There is no contradiction. It's amazing considering how often you stand against the pre-trib rapture, that you haven't yet grasped that particular aspect yet. In fact, when one considers the timing of the gathering of the living and dead by Lord given in Isaiah 26:19-21, the post-trib rapture is actually the contradictory concept.

Based on thousands of pages of commentaries and sermons written at the time of the American Revolutionary War, the pre-trib removal of the Church was almost unheard of at that time.

If it is so obvious, based on scripture, how did the preachers of that time miss it?

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENT
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.

SeventyOne · Apr 21, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Based on thousands of pages of commentaries and sermons written at the time of the American Revolutionary War, the pre-trib removal of the Church was almost unheard of at that time.

If it is so obvious, based on scripture, how did the preachers of that time miss it?

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENT
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.

A better question is how are you all still missing it?

BABerean2 · Apr 21, 2019

SeventyOne said:
A better question is how are you all still missing it?

Some of us understand that there were no chapters or verses in the first letter to the Thessalonians, when Paul wrote the letter.
The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4, is found at the beginning of chapter 5.

The words "we" and "sleep" in the verse below prove that the two chapters are connected.

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Your doctrine only works by ignoring the scripture which destroys it.

Therefore, it is a doctrine of ignorance.

.

Biblewriter · Apr 21, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Based on thousands of pages of commentaries and sermons written at the time of the American Revolutionary War, the pre-trib removal of the Church was almost unheard of at that time.

If it is so obvious, based on scripture, how did the preachers of that time miss it?
.

Actually there were approximately two dozen writers from the 1600s and 1700s that discussed it. see pages 177-178 in "Dispensationalism Before Darby," by William C. Watson, ISBN # 978-1-942614-03-6.

Biblewriter · Apr 21, 2019

Biblewriter said:
Having personally devoted well over forty years to an intense study of ancient writings, I am one of the very few who has actually analyzed the doctrines of Irenaeus, Victorinus, and the unknown writer called pseudo-Ephraem, who all treated this subject. And I can confidently assure you that all three of these truly ancient writers very clearly and distinctly taught a "catching away" of the church (no, they did not use the modern word "rapture") well before the time that the Lord will come in power and glory to judge the world for its wickedness.

But I point this out ONLY to clearly demonstrate the falsehood of the claim that a rapture was never taught before the 1830s. As to whether or not the doctrine is correct, who first taught it and when it was first taught are BOTH totally irrevalent.

As to the rest of the reasoning you have presented in your string of posts, you are making the common error that the Lord is only returning one time. There is not even one scripture that says this. And there are many that clearly show this to be incorrect.

BABerean2 · Apr 21, 2019

Biblewriter said:
Actually there were approximately two dozen writers from the 1600s and 1700s that discussed it. see pages 177-178 in "Dispensationalism Before Darby," by William C. Watson, ISBN # 978-1-942614-03-6.

I bought the book, based on you recommendation, and found its claims to be in error.

Watson claims that those who believe the Church will be removed before the final "conflagration" believed in the pretrib doctrine.

I believe the Church will be removed before the final "conflagration", but do not believe the pre-trib doctrine.

Therefore, Watson's claims are much like those in the writings of Grant Jeffrey found below.
They are carefully "revised" to make the pre-trib doctrine work.

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.

jgr · Apr 21, 2019

Biblewriter said:
Having personally devoted well over forty years to an intense study of ancient writings, I am one of the very few who has actually analyzed what was said by Irenaeus and the other ancient writers who treated this subject. And I can confidently assure you that at least three truly ancient writers very clearly and distinctly taught a "catching away" of the church (no, they did not use the modern word "rapture") well before the Lord comes in power and glory to judge the world for its wickedness.

Irenaeus' final and definitive words on the subject:

"...For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist ..." (Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 35).

No pretribber, he.

SeventyOne · Apr 21, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Some of us understand that there were no chapters or verses in the first letter to the Thessalonians, when Paul wrote the letter.
The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4, is found at the beginning of chapter 5.

The words "we" and "sleep" in the verse below prove that the two chapters are connected.

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Your doctrine only works by ignoring the scripture which destroys it.

Therefore, it is a doctrine of ignorance.

.

If by 'doctrine of ignorance', you mean many too are ignorant about it, then I'd agree,

BABerean2 · Apr 21, 2019

SeventyOne said:
If by 'doctrine of ignorance', you mean many too are ignorant about it, then I'd agree,

When we examine the original teachings of modern Dispensational Theology, it does not take long to see that it falls apart based on what is found in the Bible.

Are the descendants of the Jews God's eternal earthly people, while the Church is God's eternal heavenly people.
Since this earth is going to burn in 2 Peter 3:10-13, how can this claim work?

Is the kingdom of God different from the kingdom of Heaven?

Is the modern Church a "Gentile Church", or is it made up of all races of people?

Was the Book of Matthew written to the Jews, instead of the Church, since Christ reveals His Church in Matthew chapter 16, and the Great Commission to the Church is found at the end of Matthew's Gospel?

Are people saved outside of the New Covenant Church during the 7 year period before the Second Coming?

Are people saved by keeping the 10 commandments during the tribulation period?

Does God want a rebuilt temple, with renewed animal sacrifices, based on the Book of Hebrews?

Does God want the temple veil repaired, that He ripped in half?

SeventyOne · Apr 21, 2019

BABerean2 said:
When we examine the original teachings of modern Dispensational Theology, it does not take long to see that it falls apart based on what is found in the Bible.

Are the descendants of the Jews God's eternal earthly people, while the Church is God's eternal heavenly people.
Since this earth is going to burn in 2 Peter 3:10-13, how can this claim work?

Is the kingdom of God different from the kingdom of Heaven?

Is the modern Church a "Gentile Church", or is it made up of all races of people?

Was the Book of Matthew written to the Jews, instead of the Church, since Christ reveals His Church in Matthew chapter 16, and the Great Commission to the Church is found at the end of Matthew's Gospel?

Are people saved outside of the New Covenant Church during the 7 year period before the Second Coming?

Are people saved by keeping the 10 commandments during the tribulation period?

Does God want a rebuilt temple, with renewed animal sacrifices, based on the Book of Hebrews?

Does God want the temple veil repaired, that He ripped in half?

Now you are just trying to cloud the waters again. I used to watch all these videos you'd post to give them a chance, but they were always ridiculous.

jgr · Apr 21, 2019

VICTORINUS, IN APOCALYPSIN

5 The sixth seal: There was a great earthquake: that is, the final persecution. The sun became like sackcloth: the splendor of doctrine will be darkened by unbelievers. The moon bloody: the Church of the saints is shown to shed its blood for Christ.

[Chapter 7] And an angel descending from the rising of the sun: he speaks of the Prophet Elijah who is coming before the time of Antichrist, for the restoring and strengthening of the churches against the overwhelming persecution.

3 And one of the heads was slain to death, and his death-stroke was healed: speaks of Nero. For it is certain that when he was followed by the cavalry sent by the Senate, he cut through his own throat. This one raised, therefore, God is to send as a worthy king to those worthy, to the Jews and to the persecutors of Christ, a Christ of such a kind the persecutors and Jews have deserved. And because he will be bearing another name, and also beginning another life, so thus the same will be taken for Christ. For Daniel says: He will not be acquainted with the desire of women, in this he will be very impure, and with no god of their fathers will he be familiar.a For he will not be able to seduce the people of the circumcision unless he becomes a defender of the Law. Finally he will compel the saints to no other thing except to receiving circumcision, if he will be able to seduce them. Thus, he will make the faith of the people to him, so that by them he will be called Christ. For he has risen up from hell, as we also spoke of above in the words of Isaiah: Water, he says, nourishes him, and the abyss enlarges him.b He who must change his name and not change his name when he comes, the Holy Spirit says: His number is 666 (DCLXVI); this number is to be completed by Greek letters.

Victorinus unquestionably believed that the Church would endure Antichrist.

No pretribber, he.

Biblewriter · Apr 22, 2019

jgr said:
Irenaeus' final and definitive words on the subject:

"...For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist ..." (Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 35).

No pretribber, he.

Irenaeus placed this resurrection after the coming of the Antichrist, but before he began his three and a half year reign of terror. That made him actually a mid tribber by modern standards. but as he only believed in a three and a half year "great tribulation," he was a pre-tribber by his standard.

Biblewriter · Apr 22, 2019

BABerean2 said:
When we examine the original teachings of modern Dispensational Theology, it does not take long to see that it falls apart based on what is found in the Bible.

Are the descendants of the Jews God's eternal earthly people, while the Church is God's eternal heavenly people.
Since this earth is going to burn in 2 Peter 3:10-13, how can this claim work?

I am not aware of even one dispenstionalist who claims that the Jews are God's ETERNAL earthly people. AS usual, you are deceptively adding a word to what they teach, to make your rejection of Dispensationalism work.

Is the kingdom of God different from the kingdom of Heaven?

Click to expand...

Is the modern Church a "Gentile Church", or is it made up of all races of people?

I do not remember anyone except you speaking of a "gentile church."

Was the Book of Matthew written to the Jews, instead of the Church, since Christ reveals His Church in Matthew chapter 16, and the Great Commission to the Church is found at the end of Matthew's Gospel?

Click to expand...

Are people saved outside of the New Covenant Church during the 7 year period before the Second Coming?

Again, you are being willfully deceptive, in wording this to make it sound like we teach that a person can be saved without faith in Christ. You know perfectly well here that in this case, the difference in our doctrines in not in how a person is saved, but in simply what is the definition of the word "church."

Are people saved by keeping the 10 commandments during the tribulation period?

Click to expand...

No dispensational teacher of repute has ever taught that anyone was ever, or ever will be, saved by keeping the ten commandments.

Does God want a rebuilt temple, with renewed animal sacrifices, based on the Book of Hebrews?

Click to expand...

Here, your aguement is not with dispensationalists, but with the Holy Spirit, as He so very distinctly spoke through Ezekiel.

Does God want the temple veil repaired, that He ripped in half?

Click to expand...

I am not aware of even one dispensationalist who ever claimed that the veil will be repaired.

You should be ashamed of yourself to be so regularly attempting to deceive people with your systematic misrepresentations of what is taught by dispensationalists.

BABerean2 · Apr 22, 2019

Biblewriter said:
I am not aware of even one dispenstionalist who claims that the Jews are God's ETERNAL earthly people. AS usual, you are deceptively adding a word to what they teach, to make your rejection of Dispensationalism work.

I do not remember anyone except you speaking of a "gentile church."

Again, you are being willfully deceptive, in wording this to make it sound like we teach that a person can be saved without faith in Christ. You know perfectly well here that in this case, the difference in our doctrines in not in how a person is saved, but in simply what is the definition of the word "church."

No dispensational teacher of repute has ever taught that anyone was ever, or ever will be, saved by keeping the ten commandments.

Here, your aguement is not with dispensationalists, but with the Holy Spirit, as He so very distinctly spoke through Ezekiel.

I am not aware of even one dispensationalist who ever claimed that the veil will be repaired.

You should be ashamed of yourself to be so regularly attempting to deceive people with your systematic misrepresentations of what is taught by dispensationalists.

Classic Dispensationalists believe God will again go back to dealing with the modern nation of Israel after the end of the “Church Age”. They claim the Church is a “parenthesis” in God’s dealings with the nation of Israel.

Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.

Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.

John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

....................................

Read Dr. Dwight Pentecost's book "Things to Come", if you want to see what Classic Dispensationalists believe about the rebuilding of the temple, and the renewal of animal sacrifices.
The book was recommended to me by a Sunday School teacher who was a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary.
...................................

At one time my own Sunday School teacher, who is a Dispensationalist, said that God would go back to dealing with Israel after the pretrib removal of the "Gentile Church".

...................................

Once again, you are insisting that there must be something wrong with me if I oppose your doctrine.
In doing this you are exposing the doctrine for what it really is.
When you point one finger at me, several fingers are pointing back in your direction.

.

jgr · Apr 22, 2019

Biblewriter said:
Irenaeus placed this resurrection after the coming of the Antichrist, but before he began his three and a half year reign of terror.

Evidence?

jgr · Apr 22, 2019

Biblewriter said:
Here, your aguement is not with dispensationalists, but with the Holy Spirit, as He so very distinctly spoke through Ezekiel.

The writer of Hebrews was fully aware of what the Holy Spirit spoke through Ezekiel.

He was fully aware that there was no contradiction between what the Holy Spirit spoke through himself, and what the Holy Spirit spoke through Ezekiel.

Dispensational "buts" notwithstanding.

Biblewriter · Apr 23, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Classic Dispensationalists believe God will again go back to dealing with the modern nation of Israel after the end of the “Church Age”. They claim the Church is a “parenthesis” in God’s dealings with the nation of Israel.

Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.

Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.

John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

....................................

Read Dr. Dwight Pentecost's book "Things to Come", if you want to see what Classic Dispensationalists believe about the rebuilding of the temple, and the renewal of animal sacrifices.
The book was recommended to me by a Sunday School teacher who was a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary.
...................................

At one time my own Sunday School teacher, who is a Dispensationalist, said that God would go back to dealing with Israel after the pretrib removal of the "Gentile Church".

...................................

Once again, you are insisting that there must be something wrong with me if I oppose your doctrine.
In doing this you are exposing the doctrine for what it really is.
When you point one finger at me, several fingers are pointing back in your direction.

.

I completely agree with all the quotations you have posted here, other than someone calling the church, "the gentile church." But these are distinctly different from what you are pretending we teach.

Biblewriter · Apr 23, 2019

jgr said:
Evidence?

I have already posted HARD PROOF of this, repeatedly. But you have simply ignored it.

jgr · Apr 23, 2019

Biblewriter said:
I have already posted HARD PROOF of this, repeatedly. But you have simply ignored it.

Link?

I've DEBUNKED what you've posted. But you have simply ignored it.

Nor has your HARD PROOF convinced Thomas Ice.

Biblewriter · Apr 23, 2019

jgr said:
Link?

I've DEBUNKED what you've posted. But you have simply ignored it.

Nor has your HARD PROOF convinced Thomas Ice.

I am not aware that my hard proof has even been seen by Thomas Ice. And your attempt to debunk my HARD PROOF was a miserable failure.

The pre-tribulation rapture

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