The pre-tribulation rapture

[HTacianas]

Or the under- over- around- beside- ...however you'd like to label it. I've heard a number of different ideas about it.

What I mean is the belief that believers will be taken off the earth prior to the "great tribulation" leaving a lot of unfortunates behind to suffer with the antichrist. Different people have different views on the idea. Personally I don't hold to it at all.

If you do believe in such a thing, can you briefly share with us your beliefs and explain where you draw those beliefs from.

 

[SeventyOne]

The first issue I have with the non-pretrib approach is the logic of it all. We are told that the Church needs to go through the trib as some sort of purification or cleansing measure. If that is the case, then the entire Church would require it, which in turn requires the dead saints to return to participate. But if they have no need in returning to be 'cleansed' simply because they had already died, then a pre-trib rapture would then have an equivalent effect on those still living at the time. That argument is really kind of self-defeating.

Another issue I have is that Isaiah 26:19-21 describes a future event where the dead are risen, and the people of the Lord are all gathered and told to hide themselves away prior to the Lord pouring His wrath out over the whole earth. That sounds a lot like the rapture, and it also is a future event because the result will be the earth will never again cover its slain, and that is something we still do to this day, indicating a lack of fulfillment thus far.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The first issue I have with the non-pretrib approach is the logic of it all. We are told that the Church needs to go through the trib as some sort of purification or cleansing measure. If that is the case, then the entire Church would require it, which in turn requires the dead saints to return to participate. But if they have no need in returning to be 'cleansed' simply because they had already died, then a pre-trib rapture would then have an equivalent effect on those still living at the time. That argument is really kind of self-defeating.

Another issue I have is that Isaiah 26:19-21 describes a future event where the dead are risen, and the people of the Lord are all gathered and told to hide themselves away prior to the Lord pouring His wrath out over the whole earth. That sounds a lot like the rapture, and it also is a future event because the result will be the earth will never again cover its slain, and that is something we still do to this day, indicating a lack of fulfillment thus far.

Isaiah 26:19-20 is a great verse I don't recall reading before. It seems to be those risen at the second coming of Christ, and "thy chambers" could be "I go to prepare a place for thee." The rest of the Isaiah verse sounds like Revelation14 and 20.

Revelation 14:20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

Revelation 20:9
They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

 

[eleos1954]

Or the under- over- around- beside- ...however you'd like to label it. I've heard a number of different ideas about it.

What I mean is the belief that believers will be taken off the earth prior to the "great tribulation" leaving a lot of unfortunates behind to suffer with the antichrist. Different people have different views on the idea. Personally I don't hold to it at all.

If you do believe in such a thing, can you briefly share with us your beliefs and explain where you draw those beliefs from.

Gods people will be on earth and go through the great tribulation, but it will be cut short.

Matthew 24

21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened.

At the end of those shortened days, the Lord returns and then the 1st resurrection (that of the saved) happens. There is one resurrection (one rapture if one wants to call it that) for the saved. Paul sums it up here.


1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

God Bless.

 

[BCsenior]

A prophetess (Julie Whedbee), whom I have been
interested in for several years, has been saying
that Father God has been telling her that ...
a firstfruits special group of BACs
(who have been sanctified unto holiness)
will be caught up (aka raptured) ... and the
remaining BACs (along with everyone else)
will go through the great tribulation of the antichrist.
The firstfruits group will return in their new
spiritual bodies to work for the Lord
wherever they are assigned (obviously).

 

[1stcenturylady]

Gods people will be on earth and go through the great tribulation, but it will be cut short.

Matthew 24

21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened.

At the end of those shortened days, the Lord returns and then the 1st resurrection (that of the saved) happens. There is one resurrection (one rapture if one wants to call it that) for the saved. Paul sums it up here.


1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

God Bless.

I agree.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. Shows that the only saints Jesus comes back with are the dead, NOT the living from some past secret rapture.

 

[SeventyOne]

A prophetess (Julie Whedbee), whom I have been
interested in for several years, has been saying
that Father God has been telling her that ...
a firstfruits special group of BACs
(who have been sanctified unto holiness)
will be caught up (aka raptured) ... and the
remaining BACs (along with everyone else)
will go through the great tribulation of the antichrist.
The firstfruits group will return in their new
spiritual bodies to work for the Lord
wherever they are assigned (obviously).

Curious. What about the dead saints who would have been considered as part of the non-special group. Are they to remain in the graves?

 

[BCsenior]

Curious. What about the dead saints who would have been considered as part of the non-special group. Are they to remain in the graves?

Sorry, I don't recall if she has mentioned them.
I gave up on eschatology years ago.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Putting pre-trib Rapture in Controversial Theology. Nice!

I approve.

 

[1stcenturylady]

A prophetess (Julie Whedbee), whom I have been
interested in for several years, has been saying
that Father God has been telling her that ...
a firstfruits special group of BACs
(who have been sanctified unto holiness)
will be caught up (aka raptured) ... and the
remaining BACs (along with everyone else)
will go through the great tribulation of the antichrist.
The firstfruits group will return in their new
spiritual bodies to work for the Lord
wherever they are assigned (obviously).

That sounds like the Philadelphian Christians of Revelation 3, so does have a scriptural support. However, I see them as being kept safe as the paradigm of the plagues of Egypt kept the children safe. I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture of the Philadelphians, because 1 Thessalonians 4 specifies that the dead will return with Jesus at the second coming, and not anyone living from being caught up in a secret rapture years prior. As for the rest of her prophecy of their mission on earth, I don't see any scriptural backup for it.

 

[BCsenior]

That sounds like the Philadelphian Christians of Revelation 3, so does have a scriptural support. However, I see them as being kept safe as the paradigm of the plagues of Egypt kept the children safe. I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture of the Philadelphians, because 1 Thessalonians 4 specifies that the dead will return with Jesus at the second coming, and not anyone living from being caught up in a secret rapture years prior. As for the rest of her prophecy of their mission on earth, I don't see any scriptural backup for it.

Thanks for your comments.
My retired pastor (of 45 years) buddy doesn't believe
in any rapture either, although he's intreged with one passage in Corinthians re: firstfruits (Jesus first,
followed by "others", who could be firstfruits also).

 

[com7fy8]

If you do believe in such a thing,

I did. But I did not have any scripture which plainly and directly says Jesus will come back before the great tribulation. I had been told there will be a pre-trib rapture, but wherever I read about the return of Jesus for His church, I was assuming this will be pre-trib but I was nowhere reading this.

Then one day I decided to look up the passages about Christ's return and see which one, if any, plainly says Jesus will return for us before the great tribulation. And I kept discovering how none say this, but my assuming in my mind had been saying what people had told me!

But in Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus says what will happen "Immediately after".

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Or the under- over- around- beside- ...however you'd like to label it. I've heard a number of different ideas about it.

What I mean is the belief that believers will be taken off the earth prior to the "great tribulation" leaving a lot of unfortunates behind to suffer with the antichrist. Different people have different views on the idea. Personally I don't hold to it at all.

If you do believe in such a thing, can you briefly share with us your beliefs and explain where you draw those beliefs from.

Have fun waiting for the rapture.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Thanks for your comments.
My retired pastor (of 45 years) buddy doesn't believe
in any rapture either, although he's intreged with one passage in Corinthians re: firstfruits (Jesus first,
followed by "others", who could be firstfruits also).

What is the text? Could it be they were the ones resurrected at the same time as Jesus who were seen walking around Jerusalem? They were OT saints who believed in the coming of their Messiah. Many believe that those in Abraham's bosom were all resurrected, and it is now empty, because they went to heaven with Jesus.

 

[ewq1938]

The first issue I have with the non-pretrib approach is the logic of it all. We are told that the Church needs to go through the trib as some sort of purification or cleansing measure. If that is the case, then the entire Church would require it, which in turn requires the dead saints to return to participate.

That's a false assumption. Only the church that exists when the GT begins will go through it. What you are saying is akin to someone saying if the church must be raptured, then all the dead saints should be resurrected to also be raptured...but no, the dead need not experience what the church experiences in the end times during the GT.

 

[BCsenior]

What is the text? Could it be they were the ones resurrected at the same time as Jesus who were seen walking around Jerusalem? They were OT saints who believed in the coming of their Messiah. Many believe that those in Abraham's bosom were all resurrected, and it is now empty, because they went to heaven with Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead,
and has become the firstfruits of those
who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death,
by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die,
even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits, afterward
those (firstfruits) who are Christ’s at His coming.

Perhaps, this is the only "firstfruits" reference
that might just possibly apply.

 

[ewq1938]

1 Corinthians 15:
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead,
and has become the firstfruits of those
who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death,
by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die,
even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits, afterward
those (firstfruits) who are Christ’s at His coming.

"at His coming"

That is the rapture and it happens at his coming, known as the second coming.

 

[BABerean2]

Or the under- over- around- beside- ...however you'd like to label it. I've heard a number of different ideas about it.

What I mean is the belief that believers will be taken off the earth prior to the "great tribulation" leaving a lot of unfortunates behind to suffer with the antichrist. Different people have different views on the idea. Personally I don't hold to it at all.

If you do believe in such a thing, can you briefly share with us your beliefs and explain where you draw those beliefs from.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


The New Covenant: Bob George

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.

 

[SeventyOne]

That's a false assumption. Only the church that exists when the GT begins will go through it. What you are saying is akin to someone saying if the church must be raptured, then all the dead saints should be resurrected to also be raptured...but no, the dead need not experience what the church experiences in the end times during the GT.

Ok. How do you justify a position where a portion of the Church is required to go through the trib while others are not?

 

[redleghunter]

Putting pre-trib Rapture in Controversial Theology. Nice!

I approve.

Thought you would like this one:

7 Easy Ways To Spruce Up Your Church Stage