Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Did the thief on the cross repent of what he had done?
Based on the verse below the answer is... Yes.

Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Repentance does not equate to the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
The baptism with the Holy Spirit is a subsequent event. Four of the six examples I gave earlier prove this to be true.

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 19, 2019

Saint Steven said:
How is it that an infant has faith in Jesus Christ?
A cognitive choice (intellectual assent) is required to make a decision to follow Christ.
To repent (turn away) from sin and turn to God.
Any evidence in an infant that this has taken place?

See, with me, Steven, I believe that God does it all when it comes to saving. I don't buy into the whole, "we must go part way" notion. I'm not a believer in salvation by my works, even in part. I hold that Christ did it all.

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Some are claiming the Holy Spirit was "on" the OT Saints, but not "in" them.
That claim falls apart in the verse below.
How can Zacharias be "filled" with the Holy Spirit, if it was not inside of him?

Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Granted, the language leaves something to be desired in these passages.
And even fuels the confusion you are wrestling with. I get it. Even the outpouring at Pentecost uses both terms. Compare with

Acts 2:1-4
When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
Chapter 11 is the most impressive section on faith's power in Priscilla's letter, if not in the whole Bible.

Faith that has Christ is mind's firmness, a persuasion concerning the things which God has promised us for the purpose of having us hope upon them. It's a conviction regarding those things which we can't see, which it's impossible for us to grasp.

So faith thus concerns things which are future, though they may have their beginning in this life. It's gifts' hope. It keeps its form, even when it's weak, a taper. It's opposed to doubt.

Faith stands firm in afflictions. Faith overcomes weakness, for it's in persecution's midst that faith proves itself a persuasion of the heart that clings to God’s promises.

Faith's qualities Priscilla now intends to bring out by referring to a number of examples of OT people. For in this lay the people's commendation. It was on the ground of their having faith that the OT's leading people received God's commendation.

How does this apply to infants?

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

BABerean2 said:
I make of it that the above are speaking of John's baptism, instead of the baptism of the Spirit.

That would imply water then, right? Water baptism is assumed unless otherwise specified.

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Are you are denying that there are two types of baptism in the passage below?

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Which baptism comes on those who "believed" in the verse above?

I have always contended that there are two types of baptism. You seem to be claiming they are synonymous.

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 19, 2019

Saint Steven said:
How does this apply to infants?

God's Word is for all people groups, don't you agree?

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
See, with me, Steven, I believe that God does it all when it comes to saving. I don't buy into the whole, "we must go part way" notion. I'm not a believer in salvation by my works, even in part. I hold that Christ did it all.

It is not work to receive a free gift. But the minimum amount of effort is required. Gifts are left under the tree and unopened when we don't do our part to receive them. This is the greatest insult to the giver that I can imagine. Complete indifference toward a gift that cost Him so much.

Like a claim slip left unredeemed. Or a letter of pardon from the Governor that the prison inmate never opened. Freedom ignored.

Hebrews 2:3
how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 19, 2019

Saint Steven said:
It is not work to receive a free gift. But the minimum amount of effort is required. Gifts are left under the tree and unopened when we don't do our part to receive them. This is the greatest insult to the giver that I can imagine. Complete indifference toward a gift that cost Him so much.

Like a claim slip left unredeemed. Or a letter of pardon from the Governor that the prison inmate never opened. Freedom ignored.

Hmm... work... effort... doing our part...

Again, Steven, I hold that when it comes to salvation, God does it all. Since we're spiritually dead before we're saved, we can't do any part of saving ourselves. Thankfully God breaths new life into us. And God's fully capable of making anyone spiritually alive, including an infant.

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
God's Word is for all people groups, don't you agree?

Since when are infants a "people group"?
They can't even read. How can God's Word be for them?

Doesn't standard doctrine put all children below the age of accountability under God's protective grace? They don't need baptism for salvation. And what about children born in non-Christian homes? Are those infants condemned?

If you have a real case, please make it. Otherwise concede the debate.

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
Hmm... work... effort... doing our part...

Again, Steven, I hold that when it comes to salvation, God does it all. Since we're spiritually dead before we're saved, we can't do any part of saving ourselves. Thankfully God breaths new life into us. And God's fully capable of making anyone spiritually alive, including an infant.

Back to John chapter one.
This makes it clear that there are two kinds of people in regards to salvation.
1) Those who did NOT receive him. (those who did not recognize him)
2) Those who DID receive him. (those who believed in his name)

John 1:9-13
The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
Hmm... work... effort... doing our part...

Again, Steven, I hold that when it comes to salvation, God does it all. Since we're spiritually dead before we're saved, we can't do any part of saving ourselves. Thankfully God breaths new life into us. And God's fully capable of making anyone spiritually alive, including an infant.

Is strict Calvinism driving your doctrine on this?

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 19, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Since when are infants a "people group"?

Are they not Steven? Yet we have a distinct name for them as a group of people.

Saint Steven said:
They can't even read. How can God's Word be for them?

It can be read to them.

Saint Steven said:
Doesn't standard doctrine put all children below the age of accountability under God's protective grace?

Some Christians believe in a such an "age of accountability." Certainly not all do. I don't.

Saint Steven said:
They don't need baptism for salvation.

So you say. The Bible says, "All people have sinned and are not good enough for God’s glory." - Romans 3:23 (ICB).

Saint Steven said:
And what about children born in non-Christian homes? Are those infants condemned?

They're like everyone else - condemned until they're saved.

Saint Steven said:
If you have a real case, please make it. Otherwise concede the debate.

In fact, I've already won the debate for my side.

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
Are they not Steven? Yet we have a distinct name for them as a group of people.

They are from every tribe tongue and nation. Those are people groups. Each one with their own infants.

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
It can be read to them.

They have no language skills to understand it.
I don't want to discourage it, but they CANNOT understand.

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
Some Christians believe in a such an "age of accountability." Certainly not all do. I don't.

So then unbaptized infants are saved or lost?

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
In fact, I've already won the debate for my side.

Dream on.

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 19, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Back to John chapter one.
This makes it clear that there are two kinds of people in regards to salvation.
1) Those who did NOT receive him. (those who did not recognize him)
2) Those who DID receive him. (those who believed in his name)

John 1:9-13
The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Jesus, was in the world, he had become a part of the physical world as true man, he was subject to the laws governing humanity.

However, the world's people didn't know him, didn't acknowledge him. The people didn't recognize their Creator, so far is the world estranged from God.

The majority of people in the world insists upon being counted with the lost. The world's representative part won't accept him.

Those that belonged to him, his own race's people, that had received his grace's evidences, didn't receive him. They rejected him. Israel's children, since he didn't come as they had imagined he should, wouldn't acknowledge him as the Messiah, much less accept Him.

That John the Baptist testified of him, and though he himself preached and did miracles, didn't avail much. For the world nevertheless affixed him to the cross; which wouldn't have been done if they had realized who he was.

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 19, 2019

Saint Steven said:
They have no language skills to understand it.
I don't want to discourage it, but they CANNOT understand.

Sounds like you're really stuck on the need for intellectual assent to the Gospel. I believe God can operate beyond that. God isn't limited by our thinking ability.

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 19, 2019

Saint Steven said:
So then unbaptized infants are saved or lost?

I'm not going to make a sweeping generalization over the entire people group. Each person is an individual case.

Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

You can call me Steve

Social Pastor

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Social Pastor

You can call me Steve

Social Pastor

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Social Pastor

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Social Pastor

Social Pastor

Social Pastor

Similar threads