Good Works, Sola Fides, and Salvation

trulytheone said:

Disclaimer: I may be misrepresenting the protestant doctrine. So please, correct me.

I heard that one of the reasons why the Lutherans and the Reformed confess Sola Fides is the fact that all our good deeds are either not good enough or that they are always accompanied by sinful thoughts.

One example of this is the dilemma of providing a hitchhiker a ride: would you provide a complete stranger a ride in the middle of the night while you are with your pregnant wife and your toddler?

For some reason, refusing to offer it is apparently a sin against charity. But at the same time, the safety of your love ones in the vehicle with you is your responsibility. So apparently, sin is unavoidable.

Another example is this: there is a beggar in need of cash for food, but you can't give the money that is in your pocket because it is currently what you only have for an entire week. The amount you currently have can barely cover your rent and your one-meal-a-day for an entire week (yes, the amount of income received is a human right violation).

How should an Eastern Orthodox respond to these seemingly inescapable problems? Will one still be saved when he or she had chosen the wrong choices from these dilemmas and died immediately?

Click to expand...

Making the wrong choice in a matter is not a sin. Willingly refusing to help a person in need is. Matthew 25:31-46 tells the fate of the wicked who do not help their neighbors, and of the righteous who do.

In your example of the beggar, if you do not have anything to give, it is not your fault. The same with the hitchhiker. If you cannot help them, you cannot help them. But to look at either of them and wilfully refuse to help even though you have the means to help, is sin. And it is enough to condemn a person.

The Didache gives further guidance:

"Give to every one that asks you, and ask it not back; for the Father wills that to all should be given of our own blessings. Happy is he that gives according to the commandment; for he is guiltless. Woe to him that receives; for if one having need receives, he is guiltless; but he that receives not having need, shall pay the penalty, why he received and for what, and, coming into straits, he shall be examined concerning the things which he has done, and he shall not escape thence until he pay back the last farthing. But also now concerning this, it has been said, Let your alms sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give."

It says "for the Father wills that to all should be given of our own blessings", meaning we should share what we have as we are able. Then again, "Let your alms sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give", meaning you do not have to be taken advantage of.

This kind of question has an underlying (usually unrecognized) premise that we would reject, which is that God is looking for a reason to damn us. God desires not the death of a sinner, but that he should turn from his wickedness and live. In many cases there is not a clearly good choice and a clearly bad choice, but we should do the best that we know how allowing our conscience which has been formed by God, and nurtured by God in the Church to lead us toward the best possible choice. And often in a dilemma there is not simply one choice or another. Take for example he second scenario. I would give the beggar the cash that they need for food, knowing that God provides for my needs. Most of the time when I act in this way I find that there ends up being more money for my needs than I was expecting. We should never assume that the way we see the world is the way God sees the world. We should act in accordance with what we know to be best, and trust completely in God's mercy and love for us, knowing that He will forgive us our failings, but that He wants us to live in a certain way. He is not looking to damn us, but to restore His image and likeness within us through our cooperation with Him.

nutroll said:

This kind of question has an underlying (usually unrecognized) premise that we would reject, which is that God is looking for a reason to damn us. God desires not the death of a sinner, but that he should turn from his wickedness and live. In many cases there is not a clearly good choice and a clearly bad choice, but we should do the best that we know how allowing our conscience which has been formed by God, and nurtured by God in the Church to lead us toward the best possible choice. And often in a dilemma there is not simply one choice or another. Take for example he second scenario. I would give the beggar the cash that they need for food, knowing that God provides for my needs. Most of the time when I act in this way I find that there ends up being more money for my needs than I was expecting. We should never assume that the way we see the world is the way God sees the world. We should act in accordance with what we know to be best, and trust completely in God's mercy and love for us, knowing that He will forgive us our failings, but that He wants us to live in a certain way. He is not looking to damn us, but to restore His image and likeness within us through our cooperation with Him.

Click to expand...

bingo.

The problem I see with good works is that "we" don't have anything of our own to give. All that we have is on loan to us from God. Everything we could give is actually His, even the good intentions behind the giving (when actually present instead of selfishness or pride) are from Him. And yet we are often prideful in giving, or else cling to these things like lifeboats instead of giving them where they're needed... As mentioned above, because we have a lack of faith in God providing enough for both our own personal use and charity for others. And yet, when we do manage to see the other person as Christ, and render the things which they need from that which we ourselves have been given, we do seem to find that we have plenty to go around.
For my own part, I still cling to so much...but God is merciful. I am beginning to see other peoples needs as opportunities rather than potential risks or traps. In some very real way, we are given an opportunity to feed Christ when a beggar comes to us. Not because He wants us to be condemned by our lack of love, or because He wants us to starve for having given our last dollar, but because He wants to show us that in exchange for our tiny faith He will give us everything.

-Sasha- said:

The problem I see with good works is that "we" don't have anything of our own to give. All that we have is on loan to us from God. Everything we could give is actually His, even the good intentions behind the giving (when actually present instead of selfishness or pride) are from Him. And yet we are often prideful in giving, or else cling to these things like lifeboats instead of giving them where they're needed... As mentioned above, because we have a lack of faith in God providing enough for both our own personal use and charity for others. And yet, when we do manage to see the other person as Christ, and render the things which they need from that which we ourselves have been given, we do seem to find that we have plenty to go around.
For my own part, I still cling to so much...but God is merciful. I am beginning to see other peoples needs as opportunities rather than potential risks or traps. In some very real way, we are given an opportunity to feed Christ when a beggar comes to us. Not because He wants us to be condemned by our lack of love, or because He wants us to starve for having given our last dollar, but because He wants to show us that in exchange for our tiny faith He will give us everything.

Click to expand...

That's beautiful to me.

Covetousness was one of the things I didn't see in myself until I was baptized, then I realized how badly I suffered from it. To be fair I was in pretty extreme poverty ... it broke my heart not to be able to make the smallest acknowledgement to things my daughter accomplished, for example, or I feared something happening with my car and for my very safety. As it turns out, my car lasted, and I never went hungry or even without medical care, heat, clothing, or a roof, though I might have lacked anything and everything "extra" I wanted.

Now it's years later, and I hope I finally have the opportunity to really get back on my feet, finally. And I hope that I can, but at the same time I strongly hope and pray that I can learn to give in ways I've never really been good at, and to trust God in giving as I have learned to trust Him to receive.

I'm a little worried my heart might not be up for it. But maybe with the grace of God ...

Your words are encouraging though. Thank you.

trulytheone said:

Disclaimer: I may be misrepresenting the protestant doctrine. So please, correct me.

I heard that one of the reasons why the Lutherans and the Reformed confess Sola Fides is the fact that all our good deeds are either not good enough or that they are always accompanied by sinful thoughts.

One example of this is the dilemma of providing a hitchhiker a ride: would you provide a complete stranger a ride in the middle of the night while you are with your pregnant wife and your toddler?

For some reason, refusing to offer it is apparently a sin against charity. But at the same time, the safety of your love ones in the vehicle with you is your responsibility. So apparently, sin is unavoidable.

Another example is this: there is a beggar in need of cash for food, but you can't give the money that is in your pocket because it is currently what you only have for an entire week. The amount you currently have can barely cover your rent and your one-meal-a-day for an entire week (yes, the amount of income received is a human right violation).

How should an Eastern Orthodox respond to these seemingly inescapable problems? Will one still be saved when he or she had chosen the wrong choices from these dilemmas and died immediately?

Click to expand...

By the way, I think a few things could be mentioned about your question. I can't speak for Lutherans. But part of the disconnect I think is that we include in "salvation" not only conversion, but the whole process of being healed from sin (hopefully!) right up to being proclaimed saved by God at the final judgement.

Nothing in our good deeds merits God's grace in our conversion. We don't and can't possible earn His initial grace to us. That much I think we would all agree on. But it's not a moment-in-time thing for us, but everything that hopefully makes us into our real selves in the Kingdom someday. And that means that necessarily our "works" ... what we say, what we do, what we think ... everything in our lives shapes us in small ways or great ways, towards God or away from Him. So it all matters and we don't divorce it from conversion.

As for mixed motives and all, well the world is fallen and so are we. The truth is that we sin in some way even when we do good, because sin is "missing the mark" and the mark is Jesus. We always fall short in some way. That doesn't condemn us though. It's just that how short we fall and in what way, affects how our deeds influence our soul.

Hopefully we move toward God as much as possible. And His grace is there for us in our various failings.


(And btw if anything I've said references a particular doctrine by some body - it's just the words I used. I don't mean to refer to any particular teaching.)

~Anastasia~ said:

That's beautiful to me.

Covetousness was one of the things I didn't see in myself until I was baptized, then I realized how badly I suffered from it. To be fair I was in pretty extreme poverty ... it broke my heart not to be able to make the smallest acknowledgement to things my daughter accomplished, for example, or I feared something happening with my car and for my very safety. As it turns out, my car lasted, and I never went hungry or even without medical care, heat, clothing, or a roof, though I might have lacked anything and everything "extra" I wanted.

Now it's years later, and I hope I finally have the opportunity to really get back on my feet, finally. And I hope that I can, but at the same time I strongly hope and pray that I can learn to give in ways I've never really been good at, and to trust God in giving as I have learned to trust Him to receive.

I'm a little worried my heart might not be up for it. But maybe with the grace of God ...

Your words are encouraging though. Thank you.

Click to expand...

I hope you will be able to get back on your feet as well! One thing I've really come to realize is that a lot of the help people need isn't in money or things... It's in time, in love, in support...these things we can try to give even if we dont have money. Not that it is any less of a challenge to part with our time than it is with money, but with God's help we can make a good start.

-Sasha- said:

I hope you will be able to get back on your feet as well! One thing I've really come to realize is that a lot of the help people need isn't in money or things... It's in time, in love, in support...these things we can try to give even if we dont have money. Not that it is any less of a challenge to part with our time than it is with money, but with God's help we can make a good start.

Click to expand...

That's a good thing to point out and something I've had in mind. It's what I've tried to do for people. It's often more costly than giving money. But that my heart does rejoice in. Maybe there's hope for me after all!?

We often hear reference to saint Paul Ephesians 2:9 that we aren't saved by works lest we should boast. But when I hear these words, I'm reminded of the old joke, "I just flew in from Chicago and boy are my arms tired!" Our salvation depends on God working through generations of people to prepare for His coming into this world. He became incarnate, performed might works, taught us about the Kingdom of God, suffered and died, defeated death, ascended into Heaven making a path for our human nature to the Kingdom, sent the Holy Spirit to abide in us and guide us into all truth, etc etc etc. God has not ceased to do all things until He has brought us up to heaven and has endowed us with the Kingdom which is to come. Even if we spend thousands of days in prayer, fasting and doing of good works, it pales in comparison with what God has done. Boasting is like going on a long trip and taking credit for what the airplane did. But that is not too say that we need not do works. To continue the analogy, we should buy a ticket, pack a bag, get to the airport, endure security, walk to our gate, board the plane, etc etc. Works are important, they just aren't what saves. God saves.