marian apparitions

Mountainmike said:

But then we read " a good tree cannot bear bad fruit" " a bad tree cannot bear good fruit". The apparitions are judged on the fruits of conversion and returning to faith, so clearly a good tree.

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The fruit was not conversion to the simple Gospel that Paul believed:
That Jesus Christ died for our sins and rose on the third day (1 Cor. 15:3-4).

Rather, people started to gather to honor Mary rather than Jesus at Fatima on October 13th of every year; people started to pray to Jacinta and Francisco to heal their illnesses instead of praying to God.

These work to distract from the pure Gospel with "cleverly devised fables" (2 Pet. 1:16).

Adstar said:

I do not believe they are of God..

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Even the enemy can appear as an angel of light. I agree with you because it detracts from the divinity of God.

Mountainmike said:

But then we read " a good tree cannot bear bad fruit" " a bad tree cannot bear good fruit". The apparitions are judged on the fruits of conversion and returning to faith, so clearly a good tree.

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I believe its fruit is detraction of the power and soul divinity of God .

Natsumi Lam said:

I believe its fruit is detraction of the power and soul divinity of God .

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ChicanaRose said:

The fruit was not conversion to the simple Gospel that Paul believed:
That Jesus Christ died for our sins and rose on the third day (1 Cor. 15:3-4).

Rather, people started to gather to honor Mary rather than Jesus at Fatima on October 13th of every year; people started to pray to Jacinta and Francisco to heal their illnesses instead of praying to God.

These work to distract from the pure Gospel with "cleverly devised fables" (2 Pet. 1:16).

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I suggest a good order is: First understand Fatima. Then Criticise it. You are way off. Demonstrating you know nothing about it. You are confusing the messengers with the message.

The first message of Fatima given by an angel was:
“My God, I belive, I adore, I hope, and I love you. I beg pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope, and do not love you.“

A later visit by the same angel
"Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I adore You profoundly, and I offer you the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference with which He Himself is offended."

The real presence in the eucharist is clearly what the first generations of Christians believed, see it in the writings of those taught by apostles, it is only some reformationists who decided to give a completely different meaning to it. In this case a clear message of Fatima was to stop profaning the eucharist. Which Natsumi IS ALL about the soul and divinity.


The message the lady gave.
"God is much offended, do prayer and sacrifice for sinners and for the sins which are offending God
She also gave the children a vision of hell to say to the present generation that hell is real.

With an "or else" a worse war will commence heralded by an "Unknown light" which was the red so called aurora of early 1938,which enveloped most of the northern hemisphere (which is completely without precedent before or since) just as Germany annexed austria. Indeed several prophecies of this Lady have speen spot on in history.

All because we have offended God. A message all christians believe.

SO STUDY IT FIRST. THEN CRITICISE!!!
Mary does as she always does. Point to Jesus, not distract from him.
The fruit of Fatima is Good. Most of the many healings are associated directly with the eucharist.

Mountainmike said:

I suggest a good order is: First understand Fatima. Then Criticise it. You are way off. Demonstrating you know nothing about it. You are confusing the messengers with the message.

The first message of Fatima given by an angel was:
“My God, I belive, I adore, I hope, and I love you. I beg pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope, and do not love you.“

A later visit by the same angel
"Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I adore You profoundly, and I offer you the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference with which He Himself is offended."

The real presence in the eucharist is clearly what the first generations of Christians believed, see it in the writings of those taught by apostles, it is only some reformationists who decided to give a completely different meaning to it. In this case a clear message of Fatima was to stop profaning the eucharist. Which Natsumi IS ALL about the soul and divinity.


The message the lady gave.
"God is much offended, do prayer and sacrifice for sinners and for the sins which are offending God
She also gave the children a vision of hell to say to the present generation that hell is real.

With an "or else" a worse war will commence heralded by an "Unknown light" which was the red so called aurora of early 1938,which enveloped most of the northern hemisphere (which is completely without precedent before or since) just as Germany annexed austria. Indeed several prophecies of this Lady have speen spot on in history.

All because we have offended God. A message all christians believe.

SO STUDY IT FIRST. THEN CRITICISE!!!
Mary does as she always does. Point to Jesus, not distract from him.
The fruit of Fatima is Good. Most of the many healings are associated directly with the eucharist.

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I actually know Fatima very well. As a former Catholic and a former devotee of Mary, I knew Marian apparitions more than I knew the Bible.

Lord's Servant said:

What do you believe about Marian apparitions? Do you believe in them? And do you believe that they are Mary or are they a demon? And which ones do you accept?

I personally accept just two Our lady of Walsingham and Our Lady of Guadelupe

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I think the majority are lovely figments of over-active imaginations. I think a minority may be demonic in origin.

Natsumi Lam said:

Even the enemy can appear as an angel of light. I agree with you because it detracts from the divinity of God.

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Yes, it's the "near-truth" (as one Christian author phrases it) that makes it difficult to detect truth from falsehood. That was the Satan's tactic in Genesis 3 --"the fruit is good."

ChicanaRose said:

I actually know Fatima very well. As a former Catholic and a former devotee of Mary, I knew Marian apparitions more than I knew the Bible.

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Clearly not, or you would know what you said was false.
It is an inaccurate caricature of Catholicism and Fatima, which is sometimes echoed by badly catechised cradle Catholics who Failed to study it, The messages demonstrate that.

If you ever studied the history of the Eucharist, which is intimately connected with fatima you would not have left Catholicism or orthodoxy.

Also if you ever studied the history of Fatima you would know that Portugal had been taken over by an atheist administration intent on the destruction of organised religion. Fatima reversed that in dramatic fashion bringing them back to the church in big numbers. How is that bad fruit?

Mountainmike said:

Clearly not, or you would know what you said was false.
It is an inaccurate caricature of Catholicism and Fatima, which is sometimes echoed by badly catechised cradle Catholics who Failed to study it, The messages demonstrate that.

If you ever studied the history of the Eucharist, which is intimately connected with fatima you would not have left Catholicism or orthodoxy.

Also if you ever studied the history of Fatima you would know that Portugal had been taken over by an atheist administration intent on the destruction of organised religion. Fatima reversed that in dramatic fashion bringing them back to the church in big numbers. How is that bad fruit?

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Okay, you are entitled to your own opinion, but I also understand the Eucharist very well. It took me a long time and an extensive research to get out of Catholicism.

People kneeling down to a statue of Mary (as I used to do) is not a good fruit. People coming out on the 13th of each month between May and October for Marian processions (which I used to participate in) is not a good fruit.

**Paul did not warn the believers against pagan gods or teachings. Instead, he warned against "another Jesus" and "another gospel" (2 Cor. 11:4). Some good fruits mimic divine revelation, and can be tricky. But the fruit of idolatry would not stem from a good tree.

Isnt the Catholic Church great, even our statues can worship statues

Out of curiosity which church are you now? Im interested to know what theology of eucharist you now accept if not the catholic version?

But you are pointing at messengers not the message.
The several messages of
-God is offended, pray and make sacrifices.
-Our Lord is offended at the profaning of the eucharist.
Are not about the messengers. All about God.

Our Ladies role as intercessor is foretold in the old testament.
She is titled an (honorary) queen as mother (not spouse) of a davidic kin.
Solomon "bowed to her, gave her a throne, and told her he would do what she asked of him". We later see this enacted at Cana when Jesus said not yet "my time has not yet come", but he heeded the request with a miracle anyway, pointing at Marys role as intercessor..

Those of the time of the canon and creed were vociferous on the role of the intercession of Mary.
The statue is of course a complete red herring. Unless you think we worship the wooden statue that is Jesus in the stations of the cross. Which is of course absurd. They are simply reminders of who they represent, and asking Mary to pray for us: we know that the "prayers of the saints" are there at the altar of God.
Clearly Mary as the most favoured human by God has particularly potent prayers! We are called in revelations "her spiritual children"


What is defitively true: Portugal (and later Russia) were in a battle to save the church from complete eradication under a militant atheist regime.
Fatima rescued it with millions of conversions, including many of the militant atheists!. How is that ever a bad thing?
I remind you. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

And so on...
I came in to the catholic church from outside, as a result of studying church fathers.. I was amazed at how poorly catechized the cradle catholics were.
It surprised me not, that many left and were easy prey to reforner misrepresentations.
It surprised me not, that many returned later, having discovered the early church...

ChicanaRose said:

Okay, you are entitled to your own opinion, but I also understand the Eucharist very well. It took me a long time and an extensive research to get out of Catholicism.

People kneeling down to a statue of Mary (as I used to do) is not a good fruit. People coming out on the 13th of each month between May and October for Marian processions (which I used to participate in) is not a good fruit.

**Paul did not warn the believers against pagan gods or teachings. Instead, he warned against "another Jesus" and "another gospel" (2 Cor. 11:4). Some good fruits mimic divine revelation, and can be tricky. But the fruit of idolatry would not stem from a good tree.

Click to expand...

Mountainmike said:

Out of curiosity which church are you now? Im interested to know what theology of eucharist you now accept if not the catholic version?

But you are pointing at messengers not the message.
The several messages of
-God is offended, pray and make sacrifices.
-Our Lord is offended at the profaning of the eucharist.
Are not about the messengers. All about God.

Our Ladies role as intercessor is foretold in the old testament.
She is titled an (honorary) queen as mother (not spouse) of a davidic kin.
Solomon "bowed to her, gave her a throne, and told her he would do what she asked of him". We later see this enacted at Cana when Jesus said not yet "my time has not yet come", but he heeded the request with a miracle anyway, pointing at Marys role as intercessor..

Those of the time of the canon and creed were vociferous on the role of the intercession of Mary.
The statue is of course a complete red herring. Unless you think we worship the wooden statue that is Jesus in the stations of the cross. Which is of course absurd. They are simply reminders of who they represent, and asking Mary to pray for us: we know that the "prayers of the saints" are there at the altar of God.
Clearly Mary as the most favoured human by God has particularly potent prayers! We are called in revelations "her spiritual children"


What is defitively true: Portugal (and later Russia) were in a battle to save the church from complete eradication under a militant atheist regime.
Fatima rescued it with millions of conversions, including many of the militant atheists!. How is that ever a bad thing?
I remind you. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

And so on...
I came in to the catholic church from outside, as a result of studying church fathers.. I was amazed at how poorly catechized the cradle catholics were.
It surprised me not, that many left and were easy prey to reforner misrepresentations.
It surprised me not, that many returned later, having discovered the early church...

Click to expand...

Yes, the ideal would be to focus on the message and not the messenger. But many have prayed to Jacinta and Francisco for physical healings which distracts away from praying to God instead.

Scripture makes it plain that Satan deceives, twists Scripture to make it mean something else & tempts people to worship, venerate, honor others beyond what God has commanded to do, rather than God Himself--'My glory I do not give to another.' One takes AWAY from God what is due to Him alone.

When someone turns Scripture into a lie, like the devil does, then this is evil. It is a deception. It leads one astray from the pure & simple devotion to Christ.

2 Cor 11:2-4,12-15 RSVCE (Catholic Ed.) For I feel a DIVINE JEALOUSY for you, because I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3But I am afraid that as the serpent DECEIVED Eve by his cunning, YOUR THOUGHTS WILL BE LED ASTRAY FROM THE SINCERE & PURE DEVOTION TO CHRIST. 4For if someone comes & proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

And what I am doing I will CONTINUE to do, in order to UNDERMINE THE CLAIM OF THOSE who would LIKE TO CLAIM that in their boasted mission THEY WORK ON THE SAME TERMS AS WE DO. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself AS AN ANGEL OF LIGHT. 15So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

Does the devil quote Scripture? Yes. How? He uses only partial truths from partial verses, to make them appear true, then twists them to tempt someone to sin by violating the actual truth of the Scripture in its context & fullness of meaning. He then introduces the lie, having already used deception. He has been doing this for millenia!

One need only look at Eve's temptations & Christ's temptations in the wilderness. Here is where we practice true spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit. 'Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God.'

God gave Adam everything to freely enjoy, dominion over the earth, a perfect environment & a right relationship to Him. Then he gave him a commandment (Gen 2:15-17) before Eve was created. Adam taught that commandment to Eve.

Then comes the serpent. 'Did God say...?' Doubt as to pervert what God really said. Doubt that God was the One who was providing for them. Doubt that He was protecting them by the commandment He gave & doubt that God had indeed their best interests in mind & that they needed more.

The focus is now on the temptation, not God. The focus is to rely upon man's own reasonings rather than God's protective commandment.

We now want more & to add to what God said & to take away from what God said, so we can justify our man-made reasonings apart from God & His truth. Eve does just that.

First, she believes the lie that God is withholding something from them, that it isn't true that God FREELY gave them all that they needed for life & godliness.

She takes AWAY FROM what God actually said & substitutes her own words. SHE SAID, 'We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden...' God did not say that. God said, 'You may FREELY eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.” (Hebrew: literally, 'in dying you shall die.')

Then she ADDS SEVERAL THINGS to what God actually said, saying that this is what God said to do--when it is a direct lie--she has deceived herself with adding something to what God actually said.

'but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

God never said the tree was in the midst of the garden. God never said 'neither shall you touch it.' This shows what Eve had done & the humanistic reasoning she was using to justify disobeying God's command & choosing her own deceptive thinking & will rather than obeying God's loving will, trying to protect her.

Then the actual lie of the devil that contradicts the commandment of God: 'You shall surely NOT DIE, BECAUSE--God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened & you will be like God, knowing good & evil.'

The lie & the temptation for the mystery initiation into what God never told you; that you can be just like God, using your own power & reasoning to decide what is good & what is evil--even though they as yet didn't know what evil was--but were soon to find out, too late. Nothing wrong with fulfilling our own desires for self-gratification.

Then she fell for love of the things in the world (I John 2:15-17): the lust of the flesh ('saw that the tree WAS GOOD--for food'), the lust of the eyes ('that it was a delight to the eyes'--temptation always is) & the boastful pride of life ('the tree was TO BE DESIRED to make one wise.')

James 2:12-17 RSVCE Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who LOVE HIM.

13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil & He himself tempts no one; 14 but each person is tempted when he is LURED & ENTICED BY HIS OWN DESIRE. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth DEATH. 16 Do NOT BE DECEIVED, my beloved brethren. 17 Every GOOD endowment & every PERFECT GIFT is from above, coming down from the Father of lights...

Eve was lured & enticed by her own desire, because she had gone looking for the forbidden fruit & found it in the midst of the garden & COULDN'T SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH IT from her own reasoning & desires. She questioned God's loving & protective intent.

The same is true of Satan's temptations of Christ: 'IF you are the Son of God--THEN turn those stones into bread--you are hungry, you have the power as God the Son, you can do this to satisfy your own desires; self-gratification. You can provide for yourself as a man, rather than depend upon God's good provision in His timing.

BUT--Jesus said--IT IS WRITTEN...

The devil then said, "I will give You authority over all these kingdoms...BECAUSE it has been relinquished to me & I can give it to anyone I wish. So IF You worship me, it will all be Yours.”

BUT--Jesus said--IT IS WRITTEN, Worship the Lord your God AND SERVE HIM ONLY.

Then the devil tempted Jesus by half quoting a verse OUT OF ITS CONTEXT, saying, IT IS WRITTEN...So IF You are the Son of God,throw Yourself down from here. Again DEATH is the devil's ultimate goal for each of us, to prevent us from doing God's will for our lives & his desire to PERVERT the Word & commandments of God.

BUT--Jesus DECLARED--“It also says, ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'

We are not to test what God says, but to test what others say against what God says, no matter their humanistic reasonings or perversions of the word of God.

We are not to live merely by bread alone but by every word THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD.

Galatians 1:6-9,11,12,15,16 RSVCE I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you in the grace of Christ & TURNING TO A DIFFERENT GOSPEL—7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who TROUBLE YOU & want to PERVERT the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, should preach to you a gospel CONTRARY to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is NOT MAN'S GOSPEL. 12 For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST.

But when He who had set me apart before I was born & had called me THROUGH HIS GRACE, 16 was pleased to REVEAL HIS SON TO ME, in order that I might PREACH HIM AMONG THE GENTILES (nations).

Acts 4:10-12 RSVCE Be it KNOWN TO YOU ALL & to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man is standing before you well. 11 This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, but which has become the head of the corner. 12 And there is SALVATION IN NO ONE ELSE, for (because) there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven GIVEN AMONG MEN by which we MUST BE SAVED.”

A deceived person does not know they are deceived.

A person had a bright apparition appear, that said he was Jesus & to fall down & worship him. The person was about to do so but then remembered to test the spirits & said, 'Let me see the nail prints & your side.' The apparition disappeared, never to be seen again.

Deuteronomy 18:9-14 (Douay-Rheims) When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God shall give thee, beware lest thou have A MIND TO IMITATE the ABOMINATIONS of those nations. 10Neither let there be found among you any one that shall expiate his son or daughter, making them to pass through the fire; OR that consulteth soothsayers OR observeth dreams and omens, neither let there be any wizard, 11NOR charmer, NOR any one that consulteth pythonic spirits OR fortune tellers OR that seeketh the truth from the dead. 12For the Lord abhorreth all these things & for these abominations He will destroy them at thy coming. 13Thou shalt be perfect & without spot before the Lord thy God. 14These nations, whose land thou shalt possess, hearken to soothsayers & diviners: but thou art otherwise instructed by the Lord thy God.

RSVCE There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,b any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For WHOEVER does these things is an ABOMINATION TO THE LORD & because of these abominable practices the Lord your God is driving them out before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. 14 For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has NOT allowed you so to do.

Knowing the truth of Scripture now (no excuses), let us honestly examine this supposed apparition at Fatima of the virgin Mary & put it to the test. (to be continued)

(Continued) Scripture admonishes us to 'test test everything; hold fast what is good, abstain from EVERY FORM of evil' & 'Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God.'


The first thing I notice when searching for the apparitions at Fatima, is that the 3 appearances of a supposed angelic being, are often excluded from the sites that talk about the apparitions of Mary. One has to search further to actually find the text of one of the children who were eyewitnesses, Lucia Santos. Keep in mind three pertinent Scriptures:

'In many & various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; 2 but IN THESE LAST DAYS He has SPOKEN TO US BY A SON.'

'And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an ANGEL OF LIGHT. 15 So it is NOT strange if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness.

'I am astonished that you are SO QUICKLY DESERTING HIM who called you in THE GRACE OF CHRIST & TURNING TO a different gospel...there are some who trouble you & want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But EVEN IF we, or AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, should preach to you a gospel CONTRARY to that which we preached to you, let him be ACCURSED (anathema)...The gospel which was preached by me is NOT MAN'S GOSPEL. 12 For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.'

"In verse 7, Paul corrects a false impression. He did not mean to say that there are several possible gospels & that they have simply chosen another of several options. This verse is very plain: there is no other gospel than the one he preached to them & which they received. To be sure, there are people presenting their ideas as gospel, but these are perversions." John Piper

Here is what Lucia said about the first appearance of the angel in the spring/summer of 1916, which SHOULD BE INCLUDED as that which should be tested.

"We had been playing for a while when a strong wind shook the trees. Since it was a calm day, we looked up to see what was happening. Then we began to see, well above the trees that covered the stretch of land to the east, a light whiter than snow in the shape of a transparent young man who was more brilliant than a crystal struck by the rays of the sun.

"As he approached, we began to see his features. He was a young man of great beauty about 14 or 15 years old. We were SURPRISED & ECSTATIC. We did not utter a word.

"Once he drew near us, he said: 'Fear not. I am the Angel of Peace. Pray with me.' "Kneeling down, he bowed until his forehead touched the ground. Led by a supernatural inspiration, we imitated him, and repeated the words we heard him say:

'My God, I believe, I adore, I hope, and I love Thee. I beg Thee forgiveness for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope, and do not love Thee.' "After he had repeated this twice, he rose and said: 'Pray thus. The Hearts of Jesus and Mary are attentive to the voice of your supplications.' Then he disappeared.

"The supernatural atmosphere that enveloped us was so intense that we were almost unaware of our own existence. For a long time, we remained in the same position repeating the same prayer. The presence of God was so intense and intimate that we dared not speak to each other. On the following day, we felt our spirits still enveloped in that atmosphere, which was but slowly disappearing.

"None of us thought of talking about this apparition or of recommending secrecy, for the incident itself demanded it. It was so intimate that it was difficult to utter a word about it. This might well have been the apparition that impressed us the most, because it was the first one thus manifested."

Observations:

#1 Deception: The angel is described as a young man, ONLY about 14 or 15 years old. He looks like a youth, similar to their age, not an intimidating adult man, that most children would fear, let alone adults. Almost every appearance of an angel in Scripture was as an adult man or angelic being & the people who saw it were fearful or terrified or troubled.

These children, however showed none of this; instead they were surprised & ecstatic! They had been playing for awhile when this interruption occurred.

#2 Deception: 'Fear not. I am the Angel of Peace. Pray with me.' Nowhere in all the appearances of angels in Scripture did one ever say, 'Pray with me.' Not once. And stating he is 'the angel of peace' he counterfeits Christ, who is the Prince of peace. He wants the children to recognize he is not to be feared but to be trusted.

#3 Deception: "Kneeling down, he bowed until his forehead touched the ground." Again, no where in Scripture does an angel bow down like this unless to worship God in His Presence, not apart from God.

#4 Deception: 'Led by a supernatural inspiration, we imitated him & repeated the words we heard him say...' Children are easily led if their fears are calmed. Here they received a supernatural impression--thoughts & feelings coming to their minds, leading them to imitate the angel. We are NOT to imitate angels but to imitate Christ & be conformed to His image. We are to pray as Christ taught us, not as an angel teaches us.

Eph 5:3 RSVCE Therefore be IMITATORS OF GOD, AS BELOVED CHILDREN.
I Cor 11:1 RSVCE ' Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.' (also I Cor 4:16)

Matt 6:6-9 But when you pray, go into your room & shut the door & pray to your Father who is in secret & your Father who sees in secret will reward you. And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do NOT be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 Pray then like this: 'Our Father...

No true angel of God would do or teach this, contrary to what God teaches.

Matt 23:9 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher & you are all brethren.

John 13:13-15 You call me Teacher & Lord & you are right, for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord & Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have given you AN EXAMPLE, that you also should do as I have done to you.
I Cor 4:6 I have applied all this to myself & Apol′los for your benefit, brethren, so that you may learn by us NOT TO GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN, so that NONE OF YOU may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

#5 Deception: Causing children to pray contrary to how Jesus taught us to pray, using vain repetitious prayers.
'My God, I believe, I adore, I hope, and I love Thee. I beg Thee forgiveness for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope & do not love Thee.' After he had repeated this twice, he rose & said: 'Pray thus...For a LONG TIME, we remained in the same position REPEATING THE SAME PRAYER.

Theological Dictionary of the NT: G945. battalogeó--means to babble in the sense of trying to achieve success in prayer by heaping up repetitions. The word was perhaps formed in analogy to 'battarizo', to stammer or stutter. Only mentioned in Mt 6:7.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
a. to stammer & since stammerers are accustomed to repeat the same sounds,
b. to repeat the same things over & over, to use many & idle words, to babble, prate; so Matt 6:7, where it is explained by ἐν τῇ πολυλογία, (Vulg.multumloqui; (AV--to use vain repetitions). Some suppose the word to be derived from Battus, a king of Cyrene, who is said to have stuttered (Herodotus 4, 155); others from Battus, an author of tedious & wordy poems.

#6 Deception: The Hearts of Jesus AND Mary are attentive to the voice of your supplications.' Then he disappeared. Again this 'angel' teaches contrary to Scripture & the very nature of God! Only God is omniscient. Only God is omnipotent. Only God is omnipresent. Mary is not. Mary cannot hear the prayers of billions of people and AT THE SAME TIME--those of people calling upon God all over the world.

Mary cannot be in all places at THE SAME TIME, to be able to hear the prayers. She is confined to one place. Mary is not omnipotent & able to save, protect, answer prayer, give grace, etc. Only God does that. Yet Mary is assumed to hear all & know all & answer all.
And lest you think I am exaggerating that this is a different gospel being proclaimed by a different spirit than the Holy Spirit, with just as much fervor as someone preaching the one true gospel. go to the website where you can find the descriptions of the apparitions.

The First Apparition of the Angel | ANF Articles

There it states openly: American needs Fatima (not Christ).

And again: winning the heart & soul of America FOR MARY by spreading the FATIMA MESSAGE. This is directly contrary to winning the heart & soul of America for Jesus and spreading the one true gospel message concerning Christ--NOT FATIMA.

Further it goes in the mission statement: If the world did not convert (to this message), the Blessed Mother said there would be much suffering, famines & wars. To avert such disasters, Our Lady asked for prayer, penance and other measures.

The America Needs Fatima campaign is dedicated to bringing this urgent message into people’s homes & to the public square. This is done by the home visitation program, in which a statue of Our Lady visits thousands of private homes yearly. America Needs Fatima distributes millions of rosaries, devotional items & calendars. Other activities include Public Square Rosary Rallies, publications, e-mail campaigns & protests against blasphemies.

Not a mention of the one true gospel. Not a mention of Jesus Christ. It is all centered on Mary & her supposed message. Also It is urgent to get this to every creature, every home. This is a false gospel in plain, straightforward statements right on this website. It is a counterfeit. A child can see this. But only those deceived by the cunning of the devil will not see it.
(to be continued--I have barely even touched on what has been said, but those with spiritual discernment can plainly see the deceptions & that a different, counterfeit gospel message is being proclaimed.)

The Second Apparition of the Angel | ANF Articles

Before I continue to test the 2nd apparition, I must comment once more concerning the ending of the 1st apparition.

""None of us thought of talking about this apparition or of recommending secrecy, for the incident itself demanded it. It was so intimate that it was difficult to utter a word about it. This might well have been the apparition that impressed us the most, because it was the first one thus manifested."

First of all, parents are there to protect their children & almost all parents tell their children to let them know if something happens to them. This would go contrary to most children's teaching from parents, causing them to break one of God's 10 commandments.

Most cults & those wanting to adversely affect abuse children, strongly keep them to secrecy & not wanting them to let their parents know what is going on.

Again notice that a supernatural 'impression' & 'atmosphere' is given to the children, influencing them not to tell about this apparition & first message. This supernatural power was so strong that Lucia literally said 'it' was demanded of them to keep this secret & not to utter a single word about this.

Also notice one more thing. Lucia states that this apparition was the one that impressed them the most (out of all of them, including the supposed ones of Mary), because it was the first one. Again we have seen, upon testing this apparition concerning the supernatural influence & manner of the messenger & the message itself & how it was presented, that there are some serious warnings & deception going on, to one with spiritual discernment & comparing what is contrary to God's revealed revelation & will.

This again speaks of the mystery religions, that are demonic & emphasize keeping things secret, not letting anyone know about these 'ecstacies.'

The normal response of children is to tell others about what happened to them, especially if it was experiencing feelings of ecstacy & supposedly such an important message. If this message was so important, then why was it to be secretive & confined only to these three children, of impressionable age?

As we test things, we are to hold onto what is GOOD & avoid every form of evil. The devil, disguised as an angel of light, does tell half truths mixed with his deception. It is good to let God know we love & adore Him. But then one asks the questions: what is it that I am to believe & what is it I am to hope for? Then angel doesn't say, leaving this open to speculate & children do that very readily.

It is good that God forgives others who rebel against Him, but forgiveness comes to those who repent & believe in the one true gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the 'good news' we are to preach to others. That is the message angels bring over & over again in Scripture & true godly supernatural influence from the Holy Spirit!

Matt 1:20,21 "An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not FEAR to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit; she will bear a son & you shall call His name Jesus, FOR HE WILL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.”

Luke 2:9-11 And an angel of the Lord appeared to them & THE GLORY OF THE LORD SHONE AROUND THEM & they were FILLED WITH FEAR. 10 And the angel said to them, “Be not afraid; for behold, I bring you GOOD NEWS OF A GREAT JOY which will come to all the people; 11 for to you is born this day in the city of David a SAVIOR, who is Christ the Lord.

Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair & he had THE ETERNAL GOSPEL TO PROCLAIM TO THOSE WHO LIVE ON THE EARTH--to every nation, tribe, language & people.

Notice a very important distinction here as well between this angel & the ones described in Scripture: most angels of God are described as such: an angel of God or an angel of the Lord or an angel come from God, distinguishing them. This angel has no distinction like that--being yet another warning & sign of deception.

Luke 2:25-31 The Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he should not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. And in the Spirit he came into the temple. And when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law, 28 he took Him up in his arms & blessed God & said, “Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, ACCORDING TO THY WORD; for mine eyes have seen THY SALVATION, WHICH THOU HAST PREPARED IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL PEOPLES..."

Moving on to the 2nd apparition, with the apparently same angel, now calling itself the 'Angel of Portugal.' This occurred in the summer of 1916 over the well at the house of Lucia's parents, next to which the three children were playing. This is how Sister Lucia narrates what the angel said to them:

"'What are you doing? Pray! Pray a great deal! The Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary have merciful designs concerning you. Offer prayers & sacrifices constantly to the Most High!'

"'How must we sacrifice?' I asked.

"'Offer God a sacrifice of anything you can as an act of reparation for the sins with which He is offended & as a supplication for the conversion of sinners. Draw peace upon your country by doing this. I am its guardian angel – the Angel of Portugal. Above all, accept & endure with submission whatever suffering the Lord sends you.' Then he disappeared.

"The angel's words were impressed upon our souls like a light that made us understand Who God is, how much He loves us & wishes to be loved, the value of sacrifice & how sacrifice pleases God & how He converts sinners because of it."

#1 Deception: 'This occurred in the summer of 1916 OVER THE WELL at the house of Lucia's parents. Why would this angel appear over a well, of all places? This picture of being over a well, for anyone who knows Scripture, depicts the life-giving water of the Holy Spirit, the water that Jesus can give that you will never thirst again--eternal life of God.

Psalm 84:6 Passing through the valley of Baca ('weeping') they make it a well (spring); the early rain also covers it with pools of blessing.

Jer 2:13 (Youngs Literal Translation) For two evils hath My people done, Me they have forsaken, a fountain of living waters, to hew out for themselves wells (dug cisterns) -- broken wells, that contain not the waters.

John 4:7-15 RSVCE There came a woman of Samar′ia to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give me a drink...” "How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samar′ia?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.

Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God & who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked Him & He would have given you living water.” The woman said to him, “Sir, you have nothing to draw with & the well is deep; where do you get that living water? Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well & drank from it himself...?”

Jesus said to her, “Every one who drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” 15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”

John 7:37-39 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up &proclaimed, “If any one thirst, let him come to me & drink. He who believes in Me, as THE SCRIPTURE HAS SAID, ‘Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.’” Now this He said about the Spirit, which those who believed in Him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Isaiah 12:2-5 Behold, God is MY SALVATION; I will trust & will not be afraid; for the Lord God is my strength & my song & He has become my salvation.” With joy you will DRAW WATER FROM THE WELLS OF SALVATION. And you will say in that day: “Give thanks to the Lord, call upon His name; MAKE KNOWN His deeds among the nations, proclaim that His name is exalted...let this be known in all the earth." (to be continued)

Ttalkkugjil said:

I think the majority are lovely figments of over-active imaginations. I think a minority may be demonic in origin.

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I believe some could be real, but I also think its right alot of the Catholic hierarchy has sought to minimize their significance and to focus on mainstream biblical scholarship and theology instead. That part of the Catholic world can get just as wierd as some Protestants obsessions with the end times and prophecy.

You can't test spirits by their fruits; the only way to test spirits is to put them up against the Word of God.

Mountainmike said:

The Catholic Church wisely studies the fruits , and applies the biblical concept that "bad trees do not produce good fruit", to determine what might be worthy of belief, but stopping short of requiring belief.

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Yes, absolutely! See 2 Corinthians 11:12-15.

mathinspiration said:

Doesn't Paul say the devil sometimes pretends to be an angel with a divine message from God starting a false religion? If Marian sightings are delusions or false illusions or mirages or drug induced images, it is one thing but Satanic stuff is another. If a demon can appear as an angel, can it lie and say it is a saint?

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What basis do we have? We have God's Word!

Mountainmike said:

Other than the ones who think their own personal interpretation is infallible. In ditching the pope they become their own.

What basis have they to believe their own version of Eucharist, baptism, salvation, moral theology, whatever is right, when an army of other Protestants have mutually exclusive interpretations and disagree profoundly on every issue? To believe they alone are right...

That's the reason Protestants fracture. There is no compass or authority.
So they drift away from what the apostles taught in early church, since they fail to pay heed to early fathers taught by apostles.

The non denom creed is any personal,interpretation of scripture is good enough, whether or not it opposes most or all others.

All other Protestant groups say they discern the spirit. But proof that fails is they all disagree on almost every issue.

I am not attacking anyone , but these are fundamental questions that set me on the journey that led back to Rome.

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W

@Mountainmike: The Church also doesn't test the spirits properly. See 1 John 4:1-5.

Mountainmike said:

It is why the church does not rush to judgement.

It awaits the fruits to know which is which. We are told in Luke 6:43

For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit

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@GodsGrace101: They absolutely can be and are demonic. See 2 Corinthians 11:12-15. And yes, Satan can and does perform lying signs and wonders (including healings) to deceive people.

GodsGrace101 said:

They can't be demonic.
A house divided against itself will fall.

I believe in the apparitions the Catholic church believes in because they study them, and the miracles, in depth before making a declaration. For instance, no declaration has been made for Medjugorie. (the former Yugoslavia).

This Maria woman there has been seeing Mary for over 30 years. Every day. I find this difficult to accept and also her family has benefited monitarily from all the tourists that go there.

I accept Fatima and Lourdes.
Thousands of miracles have been reported from Lourdes, but the CC has stated that over 600 over the miracles can be confirmed.

I don't really know about the others but will read through this thread.

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